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aaah I remember now
I used that once
 
Those are just static methods, nothing fancy.
 
yea nothing exactly that special
 
indeed, fancy assert
is the C++ proposal something more?
 
dunno
 
11:02 AM
@fredoverflow No, simply making assert a full keyword instead of a macro. I can't find the paper.
 
What would be the purpose of doing that?
 
Also remove typedef
Also remove enum
 
How about someone forks C++ to remove stuff and call it C+- or something? Serious suggestion.
 
Sounds nice, but.
a) would need to be constantly updated to original C++
b) would need compiler forks
 
11:04 AM
how's python doing managing two versions at once?
 
The knives are out..
 
@fredoverflow CLight++
 
@AlexM. in short: it doesn't.
 
@Morwenn You are a c++ developer?
 
@AlexM. They develop only 3.x
They backport security fixes to 2.7
 
11:05 AM
Actually, I already thought about defining a strict subset of C++ which removes truly useless stuff, but... lots of work.
 
but 2.7 isn't going to get any new features any time soon
 
@VishalChaudhary Why, yes.
 
sometimes they add stuff for py3k compat
 
@fredoverflow but if it was just a simple tool
to detect the worst things
 
@AlexM. It's not that hard
4
 
11:06 AM
Perhaps doing preprocessing and removing say C functions from headers right before the files are sent to compilation
 
@Rapptz Where 'any time soon' = 'probably ever'
 
@Morwenn Simply asked :)
 
BTW remember that time when telkitty said manually copying files is better than Source Control
 
@CatPlusPlus mhm
 
Fuck Py2
 
11:07 AM
yea
 
@Rapptz It actually gets new features when it comes to security. But that's pretty much it.
 
Security fixes are not features
 
The modules ssh and ensurepip were backported to 2.7.9.
 
supporting py2.7 in my python lib was quite a pain
mainly no asyncio
 
Should've used tulip
Oh, no, it's called trollius
I'm not bothering with Py2 support for new projects
 
11:14 AM
probably a good idea
I kinda regret it
 
Hi!
 
hi
also unicode woes
 
new pic @Morwenn?
 
@Mr.kbok Yeah, it has been like two days :p
 
it's really similar to the old one. are you doing a really, really slow animation?
 
11:16 AM
Haha, no :D
It's just that I happened to be clothed like the previous time and was in the same place.
 
Right
 
ie, in front of your computer?
 
What are the odds
 
@Mr.kbok In my sofa with my laptop.
If I ever have a cat, I'll name them Laptop :D
 
oh, laptop, right. I thought it was odd you'd say that for a desktop
 
11:18 AM
@Mr.kbok I only have a laptop actually. But yeah, your confusion makes sense :p
 
Watch out for people freaking out that you posted another picture of yourself~
 
@CatPlusPlus They will freak out the day you post a picture of yourself :p
 
Not gonna happen
 
Too many smileys. I should calm down.
 
I got to post more selfies ... and without chickens
 
11:23 AM
the wat talk is complete garbage
the original wat talk was, too, but this one is worse
 
wat talks are supposed to be funny garbage
but this one is awkward
because the guy sounds awkward
 
lol
I was with sound off, I wouldn't know
I like this pic though
 
If it's funny it's not garbage
 
it's not funny IMO
 
But it's trying too hard just from reusing that name
 
11:25 AM
OMG trigraphs lololol
 
I haven't watched it, I can imagine it's bad
 
trigraphs are so funny. im dying
 
I watch Andrei's talks only for his sense of humor
 
NaNNaNNaNNaN trigraphs
 
Why did people want to keep trigraphs in the language already?
 
11:27 AM
> // inserting something to goodVisitors_; }
 
Because they surely have shitty code that depends on it
 
dear visitor can I insert you something ;}
 
Why does it take 2 minutes to mount an NFS share on boot
 
that's funny but not sure if intentional
 
@CatPlusPlus They could run a simple tool to convert them forever and be done with them.
 
11:28 AM
ha ha ha
Like codebase-wide sweeps are ever a matter of running a tool
Plus C++ tools are garbage
 
OTOH
you can just say you can't upgrade your compiler if you have trigraphs
 
Well, you can regex-replace trigraphs. They are replaced before everything else happens. It would be harder with digraphs.
 
if you cba to replace your trigraphs you probably don't care about upgrading
but no one cares about trigraphs actually they're just laffo stock for low quality talks
 
@Mr.kbok How come that some people cba to regex-replace trigraphs but find the time to write and defend a standard proposal to oppose their removal? Like, seriously xD
 
@Morwenn I don't think anyone opposed their removal, and I don't think anyone championed it either. I think no one cares.
 
> EBCDIC is still important
 
@CatPlusPlus I don't think it's funny.
 
I never said it was
Just wrt
12 mins ago, by Alex M.
wat talks are supposed to be funny garbage
 
@Rapptz Can I helpzorz?
 
Also I thought Rapptz said that
Change your fucking avatars already
 
11:37 AM
yeah swap them
 
lol I'd never watch wat talks
 
@Mr.kbok I thought anything non-ASCII died like 10 years ago.
 
only good wat talk is the original
 
sbi
Hi.
 
unicode hoes
 
11:37 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes nah it's just a python2 annoyance
 
Array(16).join("wat" - 1) + " BATMAN!"
^ javascript wat
 
I know how to fix them but it doesn't make it less annoying.
 
Oh that.
Yeah.
 
@Mr.kbok lel
 
@Morwenn me too :/
 
11:38 AM
10?
 
The only place you might've seen EBCDIC in the past 50 years was mainframes
 
@Mr.kbok But now I remember that UTF8 character literals were proposed because regular character literals were not required to use ASCII.
 
> There are real customers who use EBCDIC. We cannot reveal their names due to confidentiality agreements. One key example is some of the major banks in North America who continue to use IBM machines to perform check clearing operations.
 
sbi
It was just pointed out to me that stackoverflow.com/a/3734268/140719 seems to be wrong for C++11 (move operations). Where it says "there is no user defined destructor", it should says "there is no user declared destructor".
First: Is this true?
Second: If so, is this true for the others as well?
 
11:39 AM
...I wish they would just reveal that
 
Oh god that.
 
so I could avoid ever coming in contact with those banks
 
> There are real customers who use EBCDIC. We cannot reveal their names due to confidentiality
agreements.
 
Why the fuck do you care
 
not making that shit up lol
 
sbi
11:40 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I won't be there on Friday, BTW.
 
@Mr.kbok The next sentence is much more worrying.
 
Oh no my bank uses an old IBM mainframe
So what
 
@sbi I don't need you, old man :P
 
> These high reliability software systems are written on IBM mainframes clearing your checks and because they have been debugged over so many years and are highly critical to daily integrity of the financial industry, they are highly reliable and will never be moved to any other platform.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, that's fine. I just wanted to point this out.
 
11:41 AM
> @rmartinhof, do you want international customers?
WTF Twitter.
 
Will never be moved!!!!!1111
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes wut
 
Not in the next century that's for sure
And seriously who cares
 
rmartinof
 
If it works well then replacing it would make it objectively worse for customers
 
sbi
11:42 AM
Anyone knows anything about this? If this is true, then our FAQ is wrong.
 
@sbi I think "user-provided" is the correct term
 
oh wait
no
 
sbi
@AndyProwl Ok. And if I say virtual ~T() = default;, is this then "user-provided"?
 
misunderstood
@sbi No, it's just user-provided
 
11:43 AM
> We did not check, but believe Microsoft compilers behave the same
quality research in this paper
 
damn wait lol
 
sbi
@AndyProwl Yeah, sorry.
 
> A function is user-provided if it is user-declared and not explicitly defaulted or deleted on its first declaration.
 
sbi
:26412638 ...provided?
 
So no, it's not user-provided
it's only user-declared
 
sbi
11:44 AM
@AndyProwl Oh. So what my cow-worker just said is wrong?
 
Nah you changed it.
It's user-declared not user-defined.
 
@CatPlusPlus Historical reasons for keeping all the backwards compat bullshit around :/
 
I am now lost.
 
Hm?
Also I didn't get a ping for that message. Thanks SO.
 
@sbi Hmm, I think he's correct
 
11:45 AM
~foobar(); foobar::~foobar() = default; is user-provided though.
 
sbi
@Rapptz That's why I pinged you!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes SNAFU? Or not in a literal sense?
 
@Griwes Stability and reliability are not "historical reasons".
@AndyProwl The whole user-thinged thingy.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Something new!
 
@Morwenn Yeah
 
11:46 AM
Also it's not like I'm going to trust C++ code that was written in the pre-ASCII era to actually be sensibly written. And "debugged" suggests that it probably is not of great overall quality.
 
sbi
@AndyProwl Then I am misunderstanding either you or him.
 
@Griwes It's not historical. They have machines, with people working on it, where keyboards don't have those characters.
 
sbi
@Rapptz That was my question. However, @Andy says the term is "user-provided" – whatever that means...
 
@Mr.kbok It's not about keyboards. It's about the encoding.
 
@sbi I was confused sorry
 
11:47 AM
@Mr.kbok ...that's... historical reasons still.
 
@sbi I think your colleague is correct after all. If the special member function is user-declared, that's enough to prevent implicit generation of the other special member functions. It doesn't need to be user-defined nor user-provided.
 
Every system that is not ASCII based is now just legacy... one that isn't particularly sensible to keep lying around.
 
@sbi iirc user-provided is like foo(); or foo() {}.
 
@Griwes The reasons to choose EBCDIC may be historical, but the reasons to keep those systems around are very much still applicable, i.e., not historical.
 
sbi
Damn you, C++! I came here to ask a simple question ("definition or declaration?"), and now I am lost in a rabulistic maze of "user-defined", "user-declared", "user-provided", and "user fucked up". This damn language does this every single time...
 
11:49 AM
4 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
I am now lost.
 
@sbi lol this part is honestly pretty awful if you ask me
 
sbi
@AndyProwl So our FAQ is wrong, after all.
 
I'd have to look it up to be more confident
 
Xeo
Is there even a distinction between user-provided and user-defined?
 
sbi
@Rapptz You mean both a declaration and a definition or either of them?
 
Xeo
11:50 AM
as in, are both terms still in use?
 
sbi
@Rapptz Define "this part". Are you talking about the C++ standard?
 
@sbi either
 
@sbi Either of them. "not defaulted on first declaration".
 
@sbi "this part" being the stupid user-provided, user-declared, etc part of the standard.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, I thought you were referring to public transport. :)
 
11:51 AM
I forgot that site with html version of the standard
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Tbh, if these companies can't support ASCII due to encoding and can't update it because it's been "debugged", they're probably not going to be updating their compilers either, so I don't see the issue with removing the historical features.
 
thanks
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes So "not defaulted on first declaration" is "user-provided"? (Our case, BTW, is "defaulted on first declaration".)
 
Xeo
11:52 AM
If both user-defined and user-provided are in use, and they're used like I think they are, I think it works like this?
// no written ctor - not user-declared, not user-provided, not user-defined
blub() = default; // user-declared, not user-provided, not user-defined
blub() {} // user-declared, user-provided, user-defined
blub(); blub::blub() = default; // user-declared, user-provided, not user-defined
blub(); blub::blub() {} // user-declared, user-provided, user-defined
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes I thought you were talking about the the part of ISO referred to as "C++ standard". That I would have seconded. And thirded.
@Xeo Yeuchz, what a mess! Basically this is an FAQ entry in itself. (Anyone?) Thanks anyway.
Now: Which one prevents move-semantics from being automatically implemented?
 
Xeo
IIRC, "none" was the plan last time I checked
well, unless the user declared / provided / defined the move ctor in question, obviously
but it's been too long since I delved into that part of the standard for a sure answer, sorry
 
sbi
@Xeo What do you mean, "plan"? This is GCC5.
 
Xeo
@sbi well, (some of) the standard people wanted to always generate move members when possible. IIRC.
 
Any user-provided special member inhibits generation of all, no?
 
sbi
11:56 AM
@Xeo Again, one of my colleagues had to virtualize a dtor. He defaulted it at first sight.
 
I don't think foo() = default; is user-provided though
Which is what his coworker was talking about right?
 
Xeo
> blub() = default; // user-declared, not user-provided, not user-defined
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes So our FAQ says. Only it says "user-defined".
 
Xeo
@Rapptz is how I think it works, yeah.
 
sbi
1 min ago, by sbi
@Xeo Again, one of my colleagues had to virtualize a dtor. He defaulted it at first sight.
 
11:58 AM
@Rapptz Default ctors don't matter.
 
yeah sorry
meant ~foo() = default.
 
Copy members are still generated but that's deprecated.
 
Source / standard reference?
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh yeah, there was that too...
 
sbi
Well, folks, I have a meeting now. Can you guys please fight this through and then(!) fix this?
:wq!
 
12:00 PM
aha
 
@sbi I already fixed something.
:<
> 13.4 Address of overloaded function [over.over]
I wonder how they pick the [tags]
> 5.18 Assignment and compound assignment operators [expr.ass]
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes [dat.ass]
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes heh
We need "essential" expressions. [expr.ess]
 
@OMGtechy That's not a good assumption
Compilers improve in more ways than just implementing new dumb ideas that came out of standard committee
Just because it's targetting old platform doesn't mean it has be an old compiler
 
12:19 PM
Still unsure, but I think this time it's the lambdas confusing MSVC and not variadics.
lambugdas.
@GregorMcGregor Great, isn't it?
 
@Xeo ... tracking
oh hi @sbi
...oh, bye @sbi
 
user1804599
 
@Elyse :O who leaked shit fro my work!
 
@MathematicalOrchid I can imagine a compiler could make a big difference in IO performance particularly if you do output to the console (which is synchronized on all platforms, but is done so very clunkely on XP in particular). Given that the CRT changes with each compiler on windows it may change results. — Mgetz 4 mins ago
 
Ell
12:35 PM
@wilx I can't grow a beard :V
I don't have the manpower
I just grow short unattractive fuzz
@R.MartinhoFernandes what's bad with this?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes thanks :)
 
@Ell [class.copy] vs [special.copy]
 
@melak47 Sorry, the headache put me out of commission for a bit.
 
@CatPlusPlus but if they're so terrified of changing things, surely they'd also be inclined to not update the compiler?
I've not worked for that kind of company, but I have worked at places where a similar mentality was present
"don't touch it"
and if they are willing to make such changes, then I'm surprised they're not willing to change the encoding of the source files. I guess this isn't a problem I've had before, I so I don't know the issues with making such a conversion.
 
Ell
Not sure if wrist pain is due to new chair or emacs
 
12:44 PM
I agree with you omgtechy
 
definitely emacs
 
if you have a codebase you can't afford to change, then why the hell would you upgrade the compiler, that's just begging for UB to come pouring out the walls.
changing the source file encoding is possibly the most trivial, most safe change you could possibly make, and far less risky than updating the compiler.
 
Hmm. I can get Galaxy Note Edge for 2k PLN with a renewal at my mobile operator. Hmmmmm.
/cc @AndyProwl
 
Ell
you guise and your bad-value phones
 
I have a Nokia Lumia 830, which has been pretty good value.
 
12:46 PM
@Griwes Sounds good
I paid about 40% more
 
@Ell lol
 
I went through the pain of learning to use vim, dunno if I cba with emacs
@Puppy I don't know about trivial, but yes certainly less risky than updating the compiler
 
Ell
@OMGtechy emacs is much easier imho
 
But is that because you're used to it?
 
@OMGtechy Encoding of the source files is not an issue
 
12:48 PM
@Ell but then it doesn't have an editor so
 
@CatPlusPlus ok, and the removal of such tokens
 
Ell
@Griwes you can use evil-mode if you wish :P
 
that's like, vim
which voids your argument
 
why not just use vim, rather than using emacs to use vim?
 
Ell
You use emacs for more than just the text shortcuts
 
12:49 PM
Both Emacs and vim are good editors
 
Ell
I personally don't use evil-mode anyway
 
This is literally dumber argument than the fucking tabs vs spaces nonsense
 
Ell
but IIRC vim can't do asynchronous, can it?
 
Indeed, I'm just wondering if there's anything in emacs that would make it worth trying out for a while
 
here we go again
 
12:50 PM
@Griwes I got a One Plus One.. well, very nearly have it, stupid post being reasonable!
 
Ell
idk really, I haven't used vim extensively
 
NeoVim has or will have better async
 
Not trying to start an X vs Y war, although I may have accidentally
 
Ell
@OMGtechy I don't think you have, I'm not saying one is better
I just prefer emacs myself
 
You made Griwes post a thing so yes
 
12:50 PM
@CatPlusPlus At least it wasn't fartech
 
oh no, not "a thing" D:
 
Ell
also IIRC vim's graphics support is not great
 
@CatPlusPlus hmm, are they anywhere near releasing an actual version?
 
Ell
it has to use various unicode characters instead of drawing triangles etc.
 
I say we blame Ell.
 
12:51 PM
They're close to some alpha release and then they want to make faster releases
@Ell Who cares
 
@Ell which is sensible because vim over ssh
 
Ell
@LucDanton :( I'm being totes reasonable!
 
You are literally the only person here that prefers vim over SSH for normal work
 
Ell
I haven't once said "vim is better than emacs"
 
@Ell Drive-by FUD is not reasonable.
 
12:52 PM
> The project is still undergoing frequent changes, but many people use it for their day-to-day work.
I might actually try to use it at some point.
 
Ell
^what is that?
 
@CatPlusPlus I prefer "work normally" and "work over SSH" to work exactly the same way.
@Ell The quote?
 
Ell
@LucDanton well, I'm not using the FUD to reach any conclusions
doesn't that make it okay?
@Griwes yeah
 
@Ell NeoVim's main site.
 
Ell
Ohh neovim
 
12:53 PM
@Griwes it's possibly if you work over the network on a linux/unix box
 
Ell
I think @sehe tried neovim recently and wasn't impressed
 
There's not many useful things done
There's builtin terminal big whoop I don't fucking care about that
 
@Griwes I use it. I was expecting something entirely experimental and not really working, but it’s actually pain-free. And that’s with the whole Vundle install etc. and so on. Heads-up though Python support is incomplete which means some plugins don’t work at all.
 
Well it's a fork not a reimplementation
They're mostly pruning shit
 
@Ell No.
 
Ell
12:55 PM
Okay :(
 
@CatPlusPlus Anything can go wrong when it comes to software. E.g. it doesn’t resize when I expand my terminal.
 
@Ell :D
 
Well, UI is one of those things they pruned and are reimplementing
 
@thecoshman I'm not sure he likes to be referred to like that.
 
12:58 PM
@CatPlusPlus Guess we’ll have to use it UI-less for the time being then!
 
Do you have yours? :)
 
Real programmers write code by sending Protobuf packets over TCP
6
 
@CatPlusPlus I did for quite some time
although I don't anymore I admit
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't like being called illiterate vOv
@CatPlusPlus butterflies
 
There's an emacs command for that
 

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