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6:00 PM
You can even write sizeof(a[-1]) :)
Maybe I should simply take that as an example.
 
@fredoverflow not if a is a type :p
 
One-past-the-end may be too confusing for novices.
 
@fredoverflow VLAs!
 
Haven't VLAs been removed from C in C11 or C14 or something?
 
user1804599
OH: "I need to reboot Emacs ∴ I have to leave IRC"
 
6:02 PM
@fredoverflow No…
 
Would it be possible to order Mountain Dew from the internets? I am really curious about it. Also, Doritos.
 
> Your 4shared account has expired due to inactivity.
I'm devastated
 
user1804599
Uh, yes?
 
user1804599
You can order from Albert Heijn online.
 
user1804599
And they sell mtn dew.
 
user1804599
6:03 PM
Doritos idem ditto.
 
@LucDanton kinda
@Elyse How should a parseInt function behave if the number is too big for an Int? Just parse enough so it just fits and leave the rest of the digits in the input?
 
user1804599
Return Nothing.
 
@fredoverflow naw
 
@LucDanton sad? :)
 
user1804599
However, as parseInt can have two different error conditions, I'd use Either ParseIntError Int instead, where data ParseIntError = BadSyntax | Overflow.
 
6:07 PM
BadSyntax = empty string?
 
user1804599
For example, or a string with non-digits.
 
empty string is cleary the number zero :D
 
123UWOT
 
@melak47 That's how I treat it :)
@bluefog That's an unsigned 123, followed by WOT
 
user1804599
You can test this sort of functions easily with quickcheck.
 
6:08 PM
@fredoverflow no
 
Does QuickCheque accept PayPal?
 
what's a quichckeck
 
user1804599
PayPal Syrup.
 
QuickCheck is a combinator library originally written in Haskell, designed to assist in software testing by generating test cases for test suites. It is compatible with the GHC compiler and the Hugs interpreter. In QuickCheck the programmer writes assertions about logical properties that a function should fulfill. Then QuickCheck attempts to generate test cases that falsify these assertions. The project was started in 1999. Besides being used to test regular programs, QuickCheck is also useful for building up a functional specification, for documenting what functions should be doing, and for testing...
 
user1804599
Quiche Kek.
 
6:09 PM
So... Mountain Dew Original, Voltage? I just love choice when I haven't tasted it yet. I'll take both.
 
> Re-implementations of QuickCheck exist for long list of languages
wow
@ElimGarak Isn't Mountain Dew basically just water with a lot of crap mixed in?
 
@fredoverflow The table has another good example btw: do you consider complex numbers to have beeen 'removed or something' in C11?
 
user1804599
Apparently this exists: quickchek.com
 
Can't say, I know there is a lot of controversy around it, I just want to try it.
 
@fredoverflow Aren't humans basically just water with a lot of crap mixed in?
 
6:10 PM
@LucDanton dunno, never used them...
 
@fredoverflow That’s not the point.
 
user1804599
Student demands 67% of the marks because QuickCheck invalidated his implementation after 68 tests. http://t.co/bYep5HhFKj
 
user1804599
My favourite QuickCheck tweet. :D
 
@LucDanton Does "made optional" sound better?
 
There’s already a line of demarcation between, say, hosted and freestanding implementations. That a feature is not available on every possible C implementation doesn’t make it 'removed'. That includes stuff like the types in stdint.h and so on, too.
@fredoverflow It sounds correct, which is what matters.
 
6:11 PM
ok ok, you win :)
All I remembered was that there was something up with VLAs in C11.
 
user1804599
How to explain Haskell I/O to a C# programmer:
3
 
user1804599
// Is Main a pure method?
Action Main() {
    return () => Console.WriteLine("Hello, world!");
}
 
Nice. Who invokes the action, though? That's something I never really quite grasped in Haskell.
 
user1804599
It has no side-effects and always returns the same action ∴ pure.
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow runtime system.
 
user1804599
6:15 PM
Which is not Haskell. :')
 
@Elyse Can you explain?
 
@Elyse I still don't get it :(
 
user1804599
unsafePerformIO is implemented in quite a funny way. It depends on pattern matching causing evaluation to WHNF.
 
user1804599
@Nican QuickCheck is based on randomness. It could just have well run the failing test as the 1st one instead of the 68th one.
 
user1804599
Or never at all.
 
6:17 PM
@Elyse oh ok. how about input though? would all input have to happen before main?
 
user1804599
Input is passed to the action returned by Main.
 
user1804599
Note that Main does not invoke anything.
 
user1804599
It just returns the action.
 
user1804599
It doesn't wait, it does nothing at all. Just return the same value every time.
 
right, but now all the code that does anything with the input in that action isn't pure? boo! :p
 
user1804599
6:19 PM
And it isn't written in Haskell, yay.
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow Haskell program is compiled to object file, which is linked to a C function that calls the action returned by Main.
 
@Elyse ew C
 
@melak47 s/C/native/
 
Interesting, I don't remember putting in any safety-checks to guard against division by zero :)
 
user1804599
-- is getUser pure?
getUser :: UserID -> SQLQuery
getUser id = makeSQLQuery "select * from users where id = $1" id
 
6:21 PM
@Elyse Really? That sounds quite reasonable.
 
user1804599
This is similar, but with a SQL program instead of an I/O action.
 
@Elyse Haskell has string interpolation?
 
user1804599
No, it's literal $1.
 
user406009
How does the typing work for query results?
 
user1804599
postgresql-simple package has a FromSQL type class.
 
user406009
6:26 PM
@Elyse Simple. Simply say that Haskell IO is sorta like C# Tasks.
 
user406009
IO Integer is very similar to Task<int>
 
user1804599
But it's opaque, which is important.
 
cpx
@fredoverflow This one as I remember I think is guaranteed to never decay into a pointer and thus, the value is never accessed unlike the free standing expression a[5];.
 
@cpx sizeof does not evaluate its argument, it merely etypuates it ;)
 
valutyp
 
user406009
6:28 PM
The cool thing is that when you add in Variable Length Arrays, sizeof is no longer a compile time operation.
 
Ell
Herro
 
@Lalaland haha fuck C
 
that's not the cool thing
 
@Lalaland In what world is that cool?
 
that's the super dumb thing
 
6:29 PM
I have VW-code, noticed a lag when clicking. When I profile it the lag is gone.
13
 
Heisen-VW-bug
 
user406009
If it's dumb but it works, is it still dumb?
 
user1804599
Heisenwagen
 
user1804599
Volksberg
 
user406009
Also, aren't there a couple of C++ proposals for VLAs?
 
6:31 PM
@fredoverflow suggest that VW became heisenwagen
 
> Erik told the audience he has leukemia, and almost died around new year. This is so saddening. I hope you stay now relatively well for a long time, Erik. Great presentation anyway.
whoa, what?
 
@fredoverflow :(
 
user406009
I swear, the number of variant related proposals in the latest mailing just keeps rising. They are up to 9 variant related proposals.
 
@Elyse nice
 
6:35 PM
> dynarray and bs_array
bs_array = Bjarne Stroustrup array?
 
user1804599
bullschildt_array
 
@melak47 kinda sorta that
it's more complicated in practice but yes
 
@Elyse I love his book about the C standard, because I can discard half of the pages without feeling bad!
 
user406009
@fredoverflow It's for basic.
 
user406009
But Bjarne did write the proposal for it.
 
user406009
I don't know. It seems like variable length data structures would be useful.
 
like std::vector?
 
user1804599
Like std::vector?
 
user406009
Well, on the stack.
 
user406009
std::vector's junk is on the heap.
 
6:39 PM
@Lalaland They are sometimes, but sometimes not. It varies.
 
user406009
Imagine a world with stack allocated std::strings.
 
user1804599
Use VLAs with #pragma GCC diagnostic ignored "-Wvariable-length-arrays" and call it a day.
 
@Lalaland stack and heap are memory
 
user406009
Yes, but stack is so much cheaper to allocate and free.
 
someone asked me in the C room recently how do ARM stack specifications work
 
user406009
6:40 PM
Not to mention that it is often in cache.
 
stack grows up. heap grows down.
same memory.
@Lalaland meh
it's typically negligible
 
user406009
Also, you don't need to worry about stuff like heap fragmentation.
 
@Lalaland std::string is resizeable
 
> Haskell continues to evolve and improve. As the world begins to recognize more and more the value of functional programming, concurrency, immutability, and robustness, the importance of Haskell - not just as a vehicle for experimental features, but as a real world tool - continues to become apparent. We’re seeing a general increase in the popularity of Haskell, with specific increases in areas of distributed computing and data science.
it's happening :S
 
You really don't have to worry about heap fragmentation
 
user1804599
6:42 PM
We can conclude that the amount of asylum seekers in Europe is directly proportional to the popularity of Haskell.
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Haskell will always be a minority player.
 
@Lalaland So what?
I've long stopped about caring which language is "the most popular" (whatever that means)
 
user406009
Makes it more difficult to find a job where you write Haskell.
 
here we go again
 
@Lalaland That's a blessing in disguise
Very thin disguise
 
6:43 PM
@Lalaland If there are more people using it, there are more jobs.
If more people want to use it, more jobs will naturally appear.
 
user406009
@CatPlusPlus How is that a blessing? I need a job to survive.
 
Because it's a horrible thing to work with when you're on deadlines
Like C++
 
@Lalaland Then be good enough to get a Haskell one or waste your life as a C++ dev otherwise.
 
Or rubby
 
@Lalaland harder to find jobs, harder to find devs
 
6:44 PM
Right now p much every Haskell job you can get is reserved for absolute elites
 
you can ask for more $$$ if you know haskell and someone needs haskell
 
No, that just works for COBOL
 
user406009
You can also ask for more $$$ if you have more employers competing for you.
 
Nobody needs Haskell
 
@CatPlusPlus That's patently untrue.
 
6:45 PM
@Lalaland how does that work, you tell employer A that B pays more?
 
@Lalaland Or less people competing with you.
 
@AlexM. yes, basically.
 
user406009
@AlexM. Yep.
 
It's sort of like those "we'll match the price" supermarket deals
Except you're the washing machine
 
6:46 PM
pretty sure you can lie about other people's offers without employers competing lol
it's the basics of negotiation
 
you can lie about anything
 
user406009
 
@Lalaland It's the case with every specialist, really. It can be harder to get a job, but the ones that are available typically pay well and are nice and challenging.
 
user406009
I don't really care about a job being nice and challenging.
 
@Lalaland tl;dr
 
user406009
6:47 PM
I care more about working conditions. How much vacation?
 
user406009
How much sick leave?
 
user406009
Do I have an office with a door?
 
Challenging jobs are the worst
 
@Lalaland where do you work right now?
 
user406009
6:48 PM
@AlexM. Planning on interning with Epic next summer.
 
so you don't work
 
user406009
Well, I have spent three summers working. I think that gives me a little perspective.
 
little being the key word
 
@Lalaland to each their own
@Lalaland yeah well summers
 
sorry mr sehe
3
I fixed it
 
6:50 PM
@Lalaland rip
Keyface
 
also yeah Epic is literally manslaughter
> office with a door
> vacation
 
@BartekBanachewicz is that why you answered that earlier
 
yea I bet that's the #1 priority of gamedev
 
I'd be happy if they let me see my family once in a year
 
offices with doors
 
6:51 PM
@sehe I've just heard terrible things about conditions there, that's all.
 
> there
 
user1804599
 
?
> lol dumpert // FTFY
 
are there any programmers with their own offices in any company actually
 
yeah.
A handful
 
6:53 PM
so like the toppest of programmers get their office?
 
@AlexM. sure
 
I'd guess that not all of them do
 
That's why they have an office
 
I wouldn't want a private office anyway
my team lead and our architect sit with us and I find it really beneficial
 
all I've ever seen was cubicles with or without walls
I currently sit in a square with my team, I'm the guy with headphones on 24/24
 
6:54 PM
what do the toppest of keks get
 
eaten
at where I was previously there was this sort of lite notion of lead dev privilege
 
@Elyse funny; too fast pace. I have to continuously skip back to catch the captions while he's bla-bla-ing
 
@AlexM. where was that?
you're at Gameloft now right?
 
whereas lead devs would get a standard position for their desk (opposite orientation of all the other dev desks) and they'd get extras like 3+ monitors and so on
@BartekBanachewicz no I'm at national instruments now
 
oh right I forgot
 
6:56 PM
gameloft was the place with the lead dev desks
 
yeah yeah I forgot abouy you applying to that other company
how is it?
 
@AlexM. Depends heavily on the company. At Microsoft, most programmers have private offices. I believe most of Google is more like 3-4 programmers per office.
 
user406009
@chmod711telkitty I don't really store enough data to recover deleted messages in the past.
 
user406009
I only really store enough to recover messages that were just deleted.
 
@BartekBanachewicz really nice, I'm free to take any approach I want with my development and I'm always encouraged to discuss what I have on my mind with the rest of the devs around the world
I like that it's on the exact opposite of my previous experience with gamedev
 

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