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11:00 PM
who is our main mod nowadays?
 
Me!
 
Jon Clements
 
oh Jon I suppose
 
he's the lounge defender <3
 

Haskell :: Room

Haskell, the purely functional programming language.
people made another room
now dunno what to do with it
 
11:01 PM
oh you wanted him to unfreeze the other one?
 

Haskell

Haskell. We endorse Alex' attempts to learn Haskell.
this one.
 
maybe you can ping him?
 
I dunno the new one has almost as many messages already
I think the timeouting of language rooms is dumb anyway
they should be kept open
 
user406009
Well, we all know that garbage collection is important :P
 
Yes, and @sehe knows a lot about chat room garbage collection :P
 
11:04 PM
> I'm a WordPress developer for my current job. I don't fully understand WordPress however.
does bartek face
 
I don't fully understand programming either
 
@TonyTheLion Someone called?
 
> I'm a R developer for my job. I don't fully understand R though.
Same here.
 
I was just making a cheeky comment about your ability to collect lounge garbage
thought I'd ping you, because its only fair you get to see it
 
but programming is easy guys everyone can become a programmer
you just need to write some code
 
11:05 PM
yea right
programming be hard
even more so when you're inpatient like me
 
those days I'm swinging between "let them kill themselves with their wordpress" to "I should fix humanity by fixing programming"
 
What about logic
 
what about it?
 
I think to "fix humanity" you'll need a bit more than just programming
 
@TonyTheLion duh. Everyone has to do their part and mine would be programming.
 
11:07 PM
@BartekBanachewicz people insist on teaching programming in schools to improve logical skills
 
Considering how much electronic devices impact our lives, we might at least make them do what we want them to do.
 
why not just teach some sort of casual logic; not everyone's gonna program but logic is used for everything
 
because most of people have problems with abstract mathematics
 
@BartekBanachewicz because we don't teach it early
 
they can easily add 2 to 2 but tell them to add 2 to x and they fail
 
11:08 PM
people used to have a hard time reading
 
@VermillionAzure nah
I think the concept of 2 added to x creating a value dependent on a variable is rather subtle
 
user406009
I disagree. There are a lot of people who could switch into programming.
 
user406009
I am sure many physics students could study CS just as well.
 
and then you do eta reduction and suddenly world collapses
@Lalaland yeah but they're used to dealing with abstract thinking. Most of the humanity isn't.
 
@Lalaland I'm talking about sub-high school level
 
11:09 PM
Vast majority of people jobs as of now involves dealing with real world data and real world objects
 
Programming does require a certain type of mindset
 
Most people don't even care
It's not that people can't do programming; it's that there's a more fundamental skill that needs to be trained
 
that being said
 
Logic used to be one of the three basic classical education subjects
 
a certain level of abstract thinking is useful
 
11:10 PM
@BartekBanachewicz That's not really a matter of abstraction. 2+2=4 is simple rote memorization. 2+x requires at least a minuscule bit of understanding--it requires learning the idea of addition, not just a specific fact. Most schools are fact friendly but idea averse.
 
but I don't think programming is necessarily the best way to teach it
@JerryCoffin Well, you worded what I meant - better, I suppose.
 
@JerryCoffin The education system here doesn't encourage a true learning framework for learning in basic education
 
> learning framework
 
It gets worse now that we have common core and arrays and stuff
@BartekBanachewicz "learn how to learn" so to speak
 
user406009
Anyways, programming is not a difficult subject compared to many other subjects people study in college.
 
11:12 PM
@Lalaland not necessarily
people can go through an entire electrical engineering degree and have a hard time with a C++ class
 
@VermillionAzure If you're familiar with the "hacker" vs. "packer" terminology, it appears (at least to me) that most schools are run by (and for) packers, not hackers.
 
@Lalaland it's the most annoying one though :P
 
@JerryCoffin Jerry I like the way you think. :)
 
@JerryCoffin no i'm not
@JerryCoffin that's what I mean as well
 
@Lalaland Yea I find differential equations and multivariate calculus harder to get my head around.
 
11:14 PM
By the time people reach the programming electives in high school, they either have the learning capability or they don't. Same for various other subjects as well as mental blocks.
 
@JerryCoffin Then it gets all fucked up when 2+2 != 3.999999999999999
 
@TonyTheLion Sadly, I'm forced to classify that as a fact rather than an idea, and therefore mostly forget it. :-)
 
@JerryCoffin lol
 
user406009
@VermillionAzure No. It's simply a question of prior exposure to similar topics.
 
user406009
Most of the people could reach the same level, it would just take some catching up.
 
Ell
man I can't listen to gabriel dos reis :/
 
@Lalaland But you see some people cannot learn because they tell themselves either consciously or unconsciously they cannot
 
user406009
On a very anecdotal level, I can look at how past experience heavily affects my performance.
 
@Lalaland And this is very true.
 
@TonyTheLion Then again, my dad once told me to treat compliments like perfume, not food. Take them on the surface--don't eat them.
 
11:16 PM
Take baseball, for example. I played it for years as a child and yet I sucked because I didn't want to learn it.
 
user406009
@MartinJames 2 +2 does equal 4 in floating point.
 
@Lalaland It depends on how you get the 4.
.. or the 2's for that matter.
 
@Ell watch Andrei's talks. At least he's funny :)
Its worth watch Andrei just because he is funny
 
user406009
@VermillionAzure That's a question of incentive. With increasing CS salaries, you are going to see an explosion of CS students.
 
user406009
That explosion is currently happening actually.
 
user406009
11:17 PM
The most popular major at my university is Computer Science.
 
Ell
@TonyTheLion I watched two of his
I love listening to andrei
 
<3
me too
 
@Lalaland But that's not what I'm worried about
 
user406009
What are you worried about then?
 
@ElimGarak cg
 
11:18 PM
@Lalaland and most of those studying it will never be good programmers :(
 
I'm worried about the people that don't have the education to do so
 
because good programmers are rare
 
user406009
My argument is that pre-med or physics majors turned CS majors are going to be quite talented if they put in the effort.
 
I doubt that I could be considered a good programmer, though I'm probably in the better category, merely because I'm in the Lounge :P
 
I'm not worried about college or high school level
It's too late by the time people reach high school; their learning capabilities tend to be more set
It's about uplifting the people that cannot get there
 
user406009
11:20 PM
You think we should encourage more abstract math in elementary and middle school?
 
@Ell Andrei is fun to listen to, but I've started to think he has a little bit of a reality distortion field, so to speak--he frequently starts with "suppose I want to do X", and the follows through on what's necessary to do X a bit more cleanly than anybody else ever has. Unfortunately, when I look through what he talks about, I notice that the X he talks about in such detail is almost never something I care much about, nor even similar enough to translate well either.
 
@Lalaland Yes
And not necessarily abstract math
 
user406009
What do you want to cut then?
 
user406009
Whenever you add, you have to remove.
 
@JerryCoffin well his talks tend to be a lot of template related subjects, and I guess its only for a small subset of C++ people.
 
11:21 PM
@Lalaland I'd replace algebra with casual logic in middle school
Or perhaps geometry
 
like I watched his allocator talk today, prolly never will I write an allocator
 
They go through it in high school anyways
 
yet it was interesting, and most importantly funny
 
user406009
At my school, logic was included in the geometry curriculum.
 
@Lalaland We had nothing
 
user406009
11:22 PM
Anyways, I don't think formal logic is that important.
 
@Lalaland I didn't say formal logic
 
There would be plenty of good developers if the parents of daughters could be shot dead before they have time to insist that 'computer programming' is a bad career for their precious, female offspring.
 
user406009
@MartinJames Do people actually say that?
 
@Lalaland Yes.
 
It'd be more of a general casual logic and reasoning course that takes concepts from formal logic and the four usual subjects: math, language, history, sciences
 
11:24 PM
don't know if my joke was offensive
wouldn't want to offend anyone on the internet
 
@Lalaland At least based on my memories of school, quite a lot could be added without removing any actual material. It seems to me that roughly the first two thirds of nearly every class were spent reviewing the material from the year before at an ever-so-slightly less glacial pace, followed by one sixth spent on new material, and a final sixth reviewing the preceding.
 
user406009
My parents DNGAF what their offspring studied.
 
@TonyTheLion Not much point in inoffensive jokes in the Lounge.
 
e.g. if I say that clouds imply rain, why does it do so? Does rain imply clouds? What evidence is that a relationship exists?
 
@MartinJames lol, I suppose you have a point.
 
11:25 PM
@Lalaland Congratulations. You were born into a semblance of sanity.
 
This way we can introduce truth values, statements, and arguments gently
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin I think memory can get a little unrealiable once you go that far back.
 
@VermillionAzure it goes more like this "clouds form and sometimes that means its going to rain, but sometimes it could also just be that there's is clouds"
 
user406009
I truthfully only remember the vague topics at this point.
 
@TonyTheLion Exactly
 
11:26 PM
its not an absolute in either direction
 
@TonyTheLion Exactly. But why is it not an absolute?
Because there is statistical evidence that it is neither 100% true nor false.
 
On a cloudless day in summer, it's not gonna rain.
 
@MartinJames Not necessarily? What defines cloudless?
@JerryCoffin I agree
 
Ell
@MartinJames meh
 
@VermillionAzure Umm.. the sky is deep blue all around.
 
Ell
11:27 PM
I would rather my child not do an english degree probably
 
@Lalaland Probably--but what I'm remembering at this point is a lot less the specific material, and primarily how I felt about it at the time. My memory of my frustration at year after year of the same crap over and over is quite clear.
 
@VermillionAzure because this universe perhaps doesn't deal in absolutes. Lots of things go in gradients, scales of some kind.
 
@MartinJames But can you use color as a benchmark if I live, say, in industrial China and the sky will always be smoky?
 
@Ell Well, in one respect. Obviously in the total range of sanity taken gloablly, we're all fucked.
 
@TonyTheLion Yes. And people don't always grasp this concept.
 
user406009
11:28 PM
@Ell Why? As long as they have a plan for how they want to live, it should be fine.
 
user406009
For some people, it's better to live in a small home with a job you love than a larger home doing something you hate.
 
user406009
Also, degree does not equal career.
 
for some people, it's better to live in a larger home doing everything you love :p
 
Ell
@Lalaland well if they can fund it by themselves then sure, why not :3
 
@VermillionAzure spread the word man :)
 
Ell
11:30 PM
but ofc it means nothing when I don't actually have children :P
 
@TonyTheLion That's exactly what I plan to do in my life
 
user406009
Clearly, we need a statistics class instead of a logic class.
 
user406009
> Given these probability distributions, and that it rains today, what's the change it will rain tomorrow?
 
The argument I have for logic is that it underlies nearly all subjects in some way or form
Logic is not confined to formal logic as well; it can exist in a casual sense and still be immensely useful with regard to philosophy, mathematics, the humanities, and the natural sciences.
 
@MartinJames Speaking from experience, from inside a cloud of smog, it's often not particularly apparent that it's there. Driving into Denver from Colorado Springs, the brown cloud was obvious from outside (and somewhat above) the city--but looking up into the sky once you were in Denver, it looked like a beautiful, clear day.
 
11:32 PM
I had the same experience in Los Angeles
 
@JerryCoffin 'Rain' is typically reserved for drops of actual water from clouds of water vapour. If your atmosphere is primarily halogens and oxides of nitrogen, it's not really rain.
 
Smog is a lot more obvious on elevated ground - on a really tall building or a hill, it is quite obvious certain days a city is immersed in the smog. But if you are walking down the street in that city, you probably would not notice.
 
@TonyTheLion I probably would too, but do my best to avoid LA. Actually, I guess LA has gotten quite a bit better--decades of strict pollution control requirements on cars really are making a visible difference.
 
Smog was obvious when I went to Beijing.
 
@Morwenn Did you get to see the sea?
 
11:36 PM
@VermillionAzure I don't think so.
 
Even on Google Earth it looks... unscrumptious.
 
ugh
this pollution
 
@GregorMcGregor oh hey you're here!
 
user406009
@GregorMcGregor In Norfolk :P?
 
my throat hurts even in my room
 
11:38 PM
@GregorMcGregor good mernin!
 
also I'm late gonna cactch my buuuuuuuuuuuuus
which seat can I taaaaaaake
 
user406009
@GregorMcGregor I think you calibrated your time machine incorrectly.
 
@GregorMcGregor It's Wednesday Wednesday...?
 
rebecca.blackthursday
 
@MartinJames Somehow reminds me of a phenomenon I got to experience while I was in the Air Force. Fairchild AFB was in a terrible location that formed fog (not smog) a lot, so they had a "high altitude fog abatement system". They'd pump some gas (can't remember what) into underground tanks at high pressure. Then to get rid of fog, they'd shoot it through pipes up into the air. As it expanded, it cooled enough to freeze the fog, when then fell as ice crystals, vaguely like small hail stones.
 
user406009
11:39 PM
Also, did you guys hear? Today is back to the future day!
 
I heard
 
user406009
@VermillionAzure I think it's Thursday to Cicada.
 
user406009
But I am shit with timezones.
 
I went to a remote area in the mountains a couple years ago in China, significant amount of smog was even there ...
 
@Lalaland Yes
HK is UTC +8
 
@JerryCoffin Sounds like fun:)
 
Ok, now I only lack the best known sorting networks of size 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 and 30. I think that's got all the best-known ones for the other sizes.
 
user406009
Is there an algorithm for computing the best sorting networks?
 
Divide by 2, if it's prime take the logarithm
And bam, sorting network
 
user406009
11:45 PM
@GregorMcGregor ERROR: Unhandled case, composite not divisible by 2. You have crashed the Lalaland.
 
Take the logarithm, swap some letters. Now you've got the algorithm.
 
@MartinJames It was, a bit. I guess it was fairly expensive to run, so they'd line planes up, hit the button, then as soon as it was clear, planes would land and take off at minimum intervals. It was fun to watch the fog disappear, and see an entire line of planes lined up for landing. You could easily spot the extra space between them where a take-off was going to happen.
 
@JerryCoffin I would have liked to see that happen:)
 
@Lalaland Basically no. We're not even sure that any of the known sorting networks of size > 8 is optimal.
 
11:47 PM
This happened a couple of years ago - I woke up to a red sky
scary, the sky was really red - courtesy of local sand storm
 
Probably a misconfigured shader
Anyway, time to miss the bus, cya all when I get to work and when you wake up
 
@chmod711telkitty I hope that's not N2O4
 
@MartinJames You might stand a chance closer to home. At least at that time, there were only two systems like that on earth: one was at Fairchild, the other in the UK though I'm not sure where--RAF Upper Heyford is what sticks in my mind, but I certainly couldn't swear to that.
 
@chmod711telkitty is that HK
 
The 2009 Australian dust storm, also known as the Eastern Australian dust storm, was a dust storm that swept across the Australian states of New South Wales and Queensland from 22 to 24 September. The capital, Canberra, experienced the dust storm on 22 September, and on 23 September the storm reached Sydney and Brisbane. Some of the thousands of tons of dirt and soil lifted in the dust storm were dumped in Sydney Harbour and the Tasman Sea. On 23 September, the dust plume measured more than 500 kilometres (310 mi) in width and 1,000 kilometres (620 mi) in length and covered dozens of towns and...
I thought to myself, I want to be in mining, those redness - iron in the soil, LOTS OF THEM!
 
11:51 PM
@chmod711telkitty Wow! OK, rust, not nitro oxides~:)
 
@MartinJames is N2O4 red? ~_~
 
@chmod711telkitty It is, and best avoided, even in low concentrations.
 
I should go to bed
 
@TonyTheLion But... You won't? <3
 
user406009
Sleep is for the weak.
 
11:59 PM
ahhh man, I wish I could stay up all night
but I'll be so useless tomorrow
 

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