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7:00 PM
and knowing a lot about ranges in Haskell really won't help you unless you have a bunch of time to devote to re-implementing that functionality in C++.
 
there are no ranges in haskell AFAIK
 
@Fanael Yeah, plus I just love that miserable, depressing Moaninho is post-fail press conferences.
 
and even then it won't be the same by far because Haskell is lazy by default and C++ is not.
 
@Puppy Boost.Range is a thing. And it seems ranges are going to be a thing in the next Standard
 
and C++ ranges would be riddled with C++-specific concerns like memory management, value categories (lvalue/rvalue), etc.
really it's better to say "Ranges are iterators but better" than "Learn a whole new language so that you can apply this tiny subset (but you'll have to totally change it first)"
@AndyProwl Boost.Range is not real ranges.
 
7:02 PM
-3
Q: How Can I Disable Temporarly Hard Disk In Running Time With Code?

Mahdi Acurayou know when the system is running and user does nothing, hard disk will turn off about 10 minutes. in fact i need the code that turns off the hard when the system is on(Power is on) with code like Power Option. actually i need the Driver Writing code. i worked with API functions but i don't k...

 
user1804599
Or don't use C++. :P
 
and frankly, ranges are a thing in the next Standard when the Standard is published with them in it and not before.
 
Sure. And all those things make it harder to simply understand the idea of what ranges are and what problems they solve. If you learn lazy evaluation and algorithms on lists in a language that does not have any of those things, you at least know what "ranges in C++" is trying to imitate, and better understand their implementation and their implications
 
Niebler's ranges have a better chance of getting in than any other proposal but that guy seems minorly insane.
@AndyProwl Ranges in C++ is not trying to imitate ranges in Haskell at all.
 
Haskell does not have ranges.
 
7:03 PM
There are no "ranges" in Haskell
 
:( My MB supports only 16 GiB of RAM.
 
and like I said, their implementation in C++ would be totally different.
 
It's lazy evaluation, and yes, it is trying to imitate that
 
There's pattern matching and recursion. That's all you need.
 
no, it really isn't.
 
user784668
7:03 PM
@Jefffrey So what? Then it's trivially true that C++ ranges are not trying to imitate Haskell ranges.
 
ranges are trying to be better iterators, and that's pretty much it.
 
@Fanael right
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl Depends on how you define "range"
 
you don't need to know anything about Haskell to understand why we want ranges and what we'd like them to do.
 
'It appears Jose Mourinho is as popular as Arsenal boss Arsene Wenger in these parts. The Chelsea manager was greeted with a chorus of jeers - from Stoke fans, of course - as he made his way from the team coach into the Britannia Stadium.' Oh please...
 
7:04 PM
namely, iterators are shit and we want a design that eliminates some of their downsides.
 
tbh I don't mind much iterators
 
Ranges solve the problem of composable lazy algorithms on containers. It's much easier to understand those problems and the solutions to those problems in contexts where things like "value category", "ownership", "memory management" are simply out of the scene
 
user1804599
Just wait for Styx top kek
 
Not all algorithms accept pair of iterators/ranges to function. Some require just 1.
 
@AndyProwl All of those things are critical issues that should not be out of the scene. Also, laziness, composability, and containers are all optional.
 
7:05 PM
@AndyProwl I really can't understand lazyness in that context.
 
Ranges solve the problem of representing N objects of type T.
 
What does lazyness have to do with ranges?
 
and that's all there is to it.
 
user784668
@MartinJames Meanwhile, we're 4 points behind Newport and 11 ahead of Tranmere.
 
if you choose to calculate those objects lazily then that's fine, and if not, that's fine too.
 
user784668
7:06 PM
A repeat of 10-11, only us winning the playoff this time?
 
range design shouldn't eliminate the option of laziness (seriously fuck iterators) but otherwise it does not give a shit about it.
 
oh, now I see
because you can have infinite ranges
 
@Puppy They should not be out of the scene if you want to implement ranges in C++ or understand how to use ranges in C++. However, the essence of composability and lazy evaluation are better understood if you can reason about them without all the C++-specific details.
 
user784668
Our GD sucks, though :(
 
@AndyProwl We can already do that. It's called "pseudocode".
 
7:07 PM
@Fanael Yeah. No relegation worries this year, maybe promotion...
 
user1804599
@Fanael Gohn Doe?
 
@Puppy Why using pseudocode if you can use code that is actually compiled and executed?
 
because you don't have to spend ten years learning pseudocode first.
 
user784668
@rightføld Touchdown differential.
 
lol, I suspect he means 'goal difference'
 
7:08 PM
@AsteroidsWithWings: Hi
 
I didn't spend ten years learning Haskell
 
You learned Haskell?
 
obviously I was exaggerating somewhat.
 
@Jefffrey Yeah - it took eleven years.
 
@Jefffrey Not too much, but enough to appreciate the benefit
 
7:09 PM
I asked you the other day if you have learned any new language and you said no. :c
 
but if you want to do ranges in Haskell, you have to learn a bunch of totally non-range-related things, like "We enforce random casing rules because we're too stupid to make a grammar that works".
 
@Jefffrey You asked me if I'm learning any new language
I'm not :)
 
oh
I didn't know you got interested in Haskell at some point.
How was it?
I remember the first time I read an Haskell book I was all exited.
 
0
Q: Laptop didn't start without Charger connect, when Battery fully charged...!!!

JewelI have a Dell VOSTRO 1450, it's not start without charger, when battery is charged and after start with charger battery backup up to 3 hours. What is the problem, and what should i do...??

 
I only know the basics, but that's enough
I enjoyed Lipovaca's book
 
7:10 PM
Wow, that was closed fast
 
I earned the same hat twice. What kind of mockery is this?
 
although I've heard several people denigrating it here
 
@AndyProwl LAHFGG? or something
 
yeah
 
user784668
@MartinJames I'm fine with that, as long as we don't get promoted, because then we'd get relegated twice in a row and I don't like Conference
 
7:11 PM
it's great
it was my first too
 
Then I read "Programming in Haskell" and part of "Real-World Haskell"
 
Real World Haskell touches more advanced topics more quickly.
 
user784668
Isn't RWH like 10 years old?
 
@Fanael Cowardly, but prolly correct:)
 
Is this cos of all the Nazi crap?
 
7:12 PM
I watched Mejier's videos and read several articles/tutorials, but never really wrote any real program. I can say I know the basics, but that's it.
 
Also there's the parser section which was boring as fuck to me. But that's not a book problem.
 
user1804599
MGS3 is ten years old.
 
And I think that even knowing the basics made me a better programmer in C++ too
 
@AndyProwl Actually writing in Haskell is so difficult in the start.
Or at least it was for me.
 
I had the same impression
 
7:13 PM
And I'm talking about real world applications with IO and monad stacks.
 
-1
A: What is the cause of this Issue in templates 'undefined reference to'

Asteroids With WingsDefine the function inside the header! You can't define it inside the source file. This is a special rule for templates. Why can templates only be implemented in the header file?

 
user1804599
My current impression of Haskell:
Shitty libraries.
Shitty libraries everywhere.
 
cos this downvote seems a bit harsh
 
@Jefffrey Never got there
 
Not some rosalind problem.
For small programs is actually very enjoyable.
 
user784668
7:14 PM
@rightføld So you're saying Haskell is a programming language.
4
 
But for, let's say, web or game development... well, it takes quite some time to manage
@rightføld true
more "not enough libraries" than "shitty libraries".
 
@Fanael Oh - I doubt that he's claiming anything so controversial.
 
user784668
Right.
 
user784668
Haskell is magic. Powered by pixies.
 
there are probably an higher shitty/good libraries ration in C++
 
7:15 PM
@Jefffrey That reminds me of a talk by John Carmack I've watched a while ago, where he said he rewrote Wolfenstein 3D in Haskell to learn functional programming
like a small toy project
 
@AndyProwl Takes courage.
 
It would have taken a significant portion of my life to do the same
 
ikr, I'm currently battling with bugs in the Haskell Cairo implementation
 
If a language has no standard IDE AND form designer, I won't be learning it because it's useless to me, (and my customers).
 
When you get segmentation faults in Haskell, you really know you are fucked.
 
7:18 PM
@Jefffrey Drivers?
 
user1804599
s/fucked/using FFI/
 
@MartinJames Wait, C++ has a standard IDE?
:)
 
Something in the C calls of the Cairo API
 
user784668
@AndyProwl Yes, see section 33.2 of the standard
 
@AndyProwl lol no, but I already know enough C++
 
7:19 PM
@MartinJames So basically you're quitting programming (since no such thing exists)? Or by "language X has a standard Y" do you just mean "there is a tool Y that's frequently used in conjunction with language X"?
 
@MartinJames oh, all right. But does any language have a standard IDE? That would be a bad thing IMO
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin Delphi
 
Extreme violation of the SRP
 
"TURN OFF THE LASER GUIDE STAR" "WHY" "STAR CATS"
6
 
Delphi, C# are fine. C and C++ is OK because I already know it. Haskell is not.
 
user784668
7:21 PM
@MartinJames So Haskell would be okay if you already knew it?
 
@Asteroids The details should go into your answer. Otherwise it shows that you yourself don't really understand the OP's problem or the answer. — remyabel 5 mins ago
2
lol
 
Why can't you just use a non-standard IDE for writing Haskell code?
 
@Fanael Yes. I just would not use it for anything.
 
@AndyProwl You kinda have to. There's no standard IDE for Haskell.
 
user784668
IME Haskell is a great programming language if you know people who are impressed if you tell them you know Haskell
 
7:22 PM
Yeah I meant, why is it a problem that the IDE is not "standard"?
 
user784668
Otherwise it's useless
 
@AndyProwl I would have to faff around for ages to get it to work, install components, change stuff. Fix bugs. Get no support. Go to Derby County matches. Commit suicide.
 
For me, Haskell is a great programming language because it teaches you abstractions that you are unlikely to get to know by (and yet are useful for) working with other languages like C++
 
Has anyone in the Lounge written an app in Haskell that has a GUI and got sold to customers?
 
user784668
@MartinJames Who needs support when you have Haskell?
 
user784668
7:26 PM
> Has anyone in the Lounge written an app in Haskell that […] got sold
 
user784668
No
 
@Fanael I would need a lot of support. Maybe an acro prop and some rope.
 
@Fanael s/in Haskell//
still no
 
user784668
> Has anyone in the Lounge written an app
 
user784668
Still no
 
7:27 PM
lol
 
@Jefffrey Sorry, but false (at least assuming I qualify as "in the Lounge").
 
Well....
 
> Has anyone in the Lounge
no
 
> Anyone in the Lounge
nope
 
user784668
> Has
 
user784668
7:27 PM
No way.
 
That's not what she said.
 
ok, got it guys
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin Surely you mean False?
 
@JerryCoffin how many?
 
I've writen several PC apps that sold, also embedded stuff.
 
7:29 PM
people are messing with me on
 
@Jefffrey lol
 
I have yet to see a function signature today
not even one
 
Of FFS, someone post a function signature. I haven't got anything open ATM.
 
user784668
@Jefffrey These are strong, independent functions who need no type signatures.
 
see this, and this for example
@Fanael fuck independence
 
7:30 PM
> ​
Noper
 
@Jefffrey Depends a little on how you count things (both apps and customers). Just for example, what I work on right now is a system that consists of a half dozen or so executables. So far, it's been delivered to what a contract considers a single customer, but that actually means a couple of different departments at that customer (and from my perspective some of the different departments use it enough differently that they're basically separate customers).
 
> Each element if a list needs to have the same type in haskell, and ('c') [type: (char)] and ('b',3) [type: (char, num)] are different types.
lol
> type: (char, num)
 
@JerryCoffin Most of my apps are similar.
 
types that don't exist
 
What I'm working on right now is a simulator for some hardware that will be delivered to another company that will design the actual hardware (and we'll buy that hardware from them, so the simulator is used as sort of an acceptance test on the hardware design). I'm not sure if you count that as delivered to a customer or not.
 
user784668
7:33 PM
@Jefffrey (forall char. (char ~ Char) => char, forall num. (Num num) => num)
 
Most things I do at work are on contract for someone
 
@Fanael that's cheating
can you even write (x ~ T)?
 
@JerryCoffin Sure it does.
 
user784668
Sure
 
user784668
Prelude> :t (\x -> x) :: forall x. (x ~ Int) => x -> x
(\x -> x) :: forall x. (x ~ Int) => x -> x :: Int -> Int
 
7:36 PM
lol
how is (x ~ T) useful?
isn't ~ type equality?
 
user784668
In conjunction with type family magic, I suppose it is?
 
user784668
 
TJobVerifySignature=procedure(Owner:TObject;JobNum:String;OnVerify:TNotifyEvent) of object;
I found one:)
..and yes, TNotifyEvent is also a signature.
lol '*** stack smashing detected *** Aborted (core dumped)' - yet another C programmer forgets that C doesn't have a string type and fails to leave space for the terminating null on a char array:)
 
I'm curious, when you guys are accessing a db (say, MySQL) via a dataset object, how do you tend to have your apps interact with it? Do you transfer the data into objects in an STL container? Do you wrap the dataset object in something that can give you iterators? Or do you just use the dataset object's interface, whatever it may be?
 
user1804599
lol MySQL
 
7:50 PM
I prefer YourSQL
 
@caps I like to use the library's interface and wrap it, usually with something that accepts a functor/lambda/callback to invoke on every row where possible, or a deque-or-something of rows otherwise
 
user1804599
I'd just return optional<T> or vector<T> or something like that.
 
user784668
I prefer /dev/null
 
user784668
Faster than all SQL databases
 
@rightføld return?
 
user1804599
7:51 PM
No, that's why I said "return"
 
user1804599
Like
 
no you didn't
 
user1804599
optional<User> findUserByID(DB& db, UserID id) { … }
 
user1804599
Or vector<User> findAllUsers(DB& db) { … }
 
7:52 PM
you suck
 
user1804599
UserID insertUser(DB& db, User const& user) { … }
 
Just finished to watch the good the bad and the ugly, great movie :)
 
@rightføld Interesting. I had never seen optional before. That answers another latent question I've had about alternatives to returning a NULL pointer when the requested object can't be found. I figured another approach might be to throw a "not found" exception or somesuch.
 
user1804599
See Boost.Optional.
 
@Rerito Orite, reminds me: Stoke vs Chelski, -5 and counting..
 
7:56 PM
@rightføld I googled around enough to get the gist.
@rightføld So this would be some form of a wrapper then, rather than directly using whatever object your library uses to return rows.
 
@MartinJames Duh ?
 
@caps An exception is probably better.
 
user1804599
@caps Of course.
 
user1804599
That you're using a DB is an implementation detail.
 
@rightføld Right...
 
7:57 PM
@Rerito UK soccer. Stoke good, Chelski bad, Jose Mourinho....
 
oooh alright
 
@MartinJames Football! Also, boring.
 
@MartinJames Who won?
 
who won the football world cup again?
 
@MartinJames Sorry, but you've got it all wrong. German Soccer good. US Soccer bad. UK soccer...
 
7:58 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit So rather than using rightføld's findAllUsers to get a container and doing XYZ to its contents, you would create a function that does XYZ and pass it to your DoToAllUsers function?
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Germany.
 
Doesn't get much uglier than that.
 
I see how that would work for both read-only and modifying XYZs.
I'd be interested to see the pros and cons of those approaches compared.
Do those different approaches have names? Are they idioms / design patterns I can look up to read about them?
 
user784668
@MartinJames Stoke have Adam
 
-3
Q: Where is the NULL pointer located in memory?

Optimizer OscarI just opened my computer to look at the memory and I'm trying to find the NULL pointer with a magnifying glass. Can someone show me a diagram of where I can find it?

 
8:01 PM
@Fanael Uhhh.. OK, no comment:)
 
@caps LRiO one seems like the Visitor pattern.
 
@Jefffrey It's not far off
Joking aside I sometimes do what rightfold proposed, although as a member function of some Model, not with the DB being passed in for every bloody query, and with const ID input
@caps sometimes. if I expect the dataset to be large. iteration is better
 
Good job, Twitter
 
user784668
@MartinJames Fortunately for you, Hughes knows football is not about stomping on your opponents, so Adam is on the bench.
 
@caps beating around the bush, cf. googling around the gist
@MartinJames You should. My SQL rocks
 
8:04 PM
@Fanael Just because a player headlocks another and tries to rip his head off, it doesn't make him an ugly player, (at Stoke anyway:).
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Right.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Right, iterating directly over a very large dataset, rather than trying to put its contents into some other container? Yeah, I see this too.
@sehe Huh?
 
just a random association
 
2 mins: Stoke City 0-1 Chelsea - John Terry. Oh well...:((
 
don't give a shit
 
user784668
@MartinJames Bojan hattrick
 
8:07 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah they're mean :(
 
@Fanael OK, someone has optimism.
 
So. What do you guys do for fun? ;)
 
user784668
Found a stream
 
user784668
Forgot I don't know Spanish
 
That doesn't sound like fun.
 
8:11 PM
Ignoring winged asteroids
 
no it doesn't
 
@Fanael so subtle
good night
 
@AsteroidsWithWings What is the "fun" of which you speak? Some strange abbreviation for "function" perhaps?
 
Meh - 'NULL pointer' got zapped before enough funnies got posted.
 
ordered my monitor
maybe it will arrive soon enough for me to place it under the xmas tree
 
8:19 PM
That would be ergonomic disaster, IYAM
 
@AlexM. I like to keep my monitors in order too. I'm sure proper discipline will increase their resolution...
 
.@cppnow talk idea: "Monads and Monoids". Guaranteed to be accepted based on title alone.
Unfortunately that subject would require me to learn what monads are. Again. Also monoids. Again.
 
user1804599
@sehe Depends on where your christmas tree is located.
 
This reminds me I don't have a Christmas tree
 
@Griwes I miss James hanging out here in the Lounge...
 
8:23 PM
@sehe only wanting to make it a present for myself of course :P
like, put it under the tree then come back 10 mins later like
OH SHIT WHAT IS THAT AWESOME PRESENT
 
user1804599
Fuck Christmas.
 
it works if you ignore the fact that it doesn't work
 
@AlexM. It requires suspension of disbelief, just like you need for movies.
 
there's a MasterChef for kids
is there a Hell's Kitchen for kids
like with Ramsay going around and shouting "you're a dumb fucking fatface" at an overweight kid
that would be interesting to watch
 
@AlexM. Lots of kids live in Hell's kitchen already.
 
8:28 PM
lol
> Once a bastion of poor and working-class Irish Americans, Hell's Kitchen's proximity to Midtown has changed it over the last three decades of the 20th century and into the new millennium.
 
Is C++ good for someone coming from JavaScript wanting to start programming more low level ?
 
@AfonsoMatos Sure?
 
@AfonsoMatos Yes I think so!!
 
@AfonsoMatos Depends on what you mean by "wanting to start programming more low level ?"
 
I just want to know all the more low level concepts. For example, I didn't know what was a byte, long, short before I went to SQL.. I found myself really dumb, because in JavaScript, PHP.. we just use "numbers" (ints?)
 
8:40 PM
@AfonsoMatos It's also good if you want to start programming more high level... :P
 
I want to get some more knowledge on how a program works in a computer..
 
In particular, C++ is actually much higher level than JS in at least some ways.
 
Co-worker giving me a hard time for wanting to write a generic layer for pulling stuff from the db via a dataset, rather than just letting apps iterate over the dataset directly. That the dataset is an implementation detail was unpersuasive. Oh well. Anyway, that's why I was curious if there were some kind of common pattern or idiom that was preferred.
@AfonsoMatos When I think about C++, that is certainly not the kind of thing that I think about being an important characteristic of the language.
 
@caps Have you considered using a library like SOCI that already provides fairly high-level abstractions?
 
@AfonsoMatos This is the Lounge. Most of our programs don't work.
7
 
8:44 PM
@MartinJames Rofl!
What sort of programs do you make Martin?
 
user1804599
Broken ones.
 
user1804599
@AfonsoMatos No.
 
user1804599
Try something higher-level like Haskell instead.
 
@AsteroidsWithWings Systems for fluid management, (AKA shoving oils into cars, vans and trucks).
 
Haskell? Is that even useful?
3
 
user1804599
8:46 PM
Sure.
 
user1804599
I learned a lot from it.
 
@MartinJames Wow!
 
Sarcastic Haskell joke #324391093
 
lol, fastest 3-starrer in history.
 
Do I get a cookie?
 
8:46 PM
@JerryCoffin At a glance, I like it, especially the STL compatibility. We are actually already using something that performs a similar role. It is a VCL component, though, so it offers no STL compatibility at all.
 
user1804599
@Nican No, you have to give permissions first as per EU regulations.
 
@AsteroidsWithWings Well, TBH, control systems for garages and lube-bays are not exactly at the cutting-edge of computer systems development.
 
@AfonsoMatos I would probably say Java/C#, then move to C++. But really, you should learn a language on your interests.
 
I think I just need to get over it and accept that the TSQLDataSet already acts as a layer that separates interface and implementation. I think I just don't like the interface it offers for actually using the data it returns in my code.
 
user1804599
Learning different paradigms is more useful than learning different languages within the same paradigm.
 
8:48 PM
I was aiming for Java too.. I have already messed with it a bit..
 
user1804599
Scala is more fun than Java.
 
user1804599
Java is verbosity hell.
 
why that
 
user1804599
lol, some idiot blasted off his fingers with illegal fireworks
 
user1804599
@AfonsoMatos You have to repeat type names all the time, for one.
 
user1804599
8:53 PM
And checked exceptions.
 
it's easier to read
no?
 
user1804599
It's quite hard to read code when there is nonsense all over the place.
 
I hope my pizza dough turns out ok
although this would be a great opportunity to learn about doughs that fail and need fixing
 
user1804599
@AlexM. Weren't you fat?
 
user1804599
Stop eating pizza.
 
8:57 PM
You can debug pizza?
 
I'm not too fat to cook
 
user1804599
@MartinJames Pizza runs on the JVM, so you can use any Java debugger.
 
and besides, I'll share it with the family
so I won't be able to eat it all
at most 2 slices
 
@rightføld Mmmm... virtual pepperoni.
 
@MartinJames I'm a bit afraid that I didn't use enough yeast
it's supposed to sit there for 12 hours at least but I guess I'll know if it doesn't start growing in a few hours
 
8:59 PM
@AlexM. Mebbe rest it longer.
 
@AlexM. If you run into problems then ask a question on doughoverflow.com
 
@honk that would be funny if there wasn't a SE site for cooking
 
@honk That's for too much yeast.
 
@MartinJames I'll go check on it in some 4 hours
 

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