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12:00 PM
Pi is finite. All real numbers are.
3
 
user1804599
It requires an infinite number of digits when represented in decimal.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well you get a close approximation, but you either need infinite list of fractions or you stop at some point and let the rest be wrong.
 
It's pretty much the definition of finite number.
 
@Jefffrey no!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I am starring this because it's hilarious
 
12:00 PM
@thecoshman Well, infinite lists of fractions is what we're talking about.
 
1/3 <-- real, finite, infinite decimal digits though.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ok, so I have a problem with a definition
 
user1804599
If you represent it in base π it's spelled 10.
 
user1804599
All your base are base 10!
 
because I'm not sure 1.999.... is a finite number either
 
12:01 PM
it is.
 
I know that all math is based on that and it's probably true
 
@Jefffrey it is finite.
 
Let's not use "finite" any more.
 
you're confusing finite number with finite representation.
 
I know that you believe is true, as well
 
user1804599
12:01 PM
@Jefffrey represent it in base 1.999... problem solved.
 
Use only "real number" from now on.
 
wait a second
 
perhaps an example of a infinite number, such as the number of numbers between 1 and 2
 
if I consider x/y finite, then I have to consider 1.999... finite and therefore I have to consider pi finite
 
what ever list you give me (of numbers between 1 and 2), I can add another number to that list
 
12:03 PM
and therefore I have to consider our initial sum finite
 
@Jefffrey I don't see why, but ok.
 
if x and y are finite, then the result is finite (excluding y = 0, of course)
 
@Puppy of course, or x being infinite
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes because I can get 1/3 which is 0.333...
 
did you guys do maths in uni, sounds like a bunch of primary school kids discussing maths
 
12:04 PM
@Jefffrey Ah, ok. That works.
@chmod711telkitty Go troll elsewhere.
 
@chmod711telkitty I know it's basic math
 
It's not basic math.
 
@Jefffrey ... no offence, but you do understand what we mean when we say a 'real number' right?
 
@thecoshman any number that is not complex?
like -0.344 is real
sqrt(-1) is not real
 
12:05 PM
no?
 
Well, defining real numbers by exclusion won't work, but that seems fine for now.
 
how long does the effect of a kick last: 1 sec?
 
user1804599
@Xeo lol
 
@Jefffrey well... that is true... but perhaps not explaining it well enough.
 
Xeo
no wait, that's pi
 
12:06 PM
:20591855 WTF. It's rational by definition.
Rational numbers are those defined as ratios of integers, like... 1/3.
 
Xeo
oops <3
 
user1804599
Fuck floating point numbers. Rational numbers ftw!
 
Xeo
hey robot, when's the game tomorrow and on Friday?
 
I think that's what @Jefffrey is getting stuck on, pi is real, but not rational.
 
@Xeo oh come on, don't remove messages
 
12:07 PM
@Xeo Tomorrow 2pm, Ben's place (I can text you the address if you need).
 
I'm doing the walk of shame too here
keep me company
 
Friday is from 5pm onwards.
 
Xeo
oh, 2pm already. k
 
user1804599
Clojure does integer division nicely.
 
Xeo
anything I need to bring?
 
12:08 PM
@Xeo We'll play till 7pm.
 
user1804599
Hoes.
 
Bring a pen; paper if you want.
 
Xeo
dice?
 
I have enough dice.
 
Xeo
yeah, but you don't have my dice :P
 
12:09 PM
Are your dice suitable for RED clearance?
 
Xeo
lol
 
I'm dum
@thecoshman yes, that's probably it
 
user1804599
 
ok, so pi is irrational
 
user1804599
get real
 
12:11 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Gosh. The circlejerk is strong with this one: tex.stackexchange.com/a/218570/8694
 
ok, 0.333... is finite
@R.MartinhoFernandes pls go on
 
@Jefffrey which means, we can work out exactly what it is (theoretically, mystical is working on it), we just can't represent it as a nice concise fraction (in base ten)
 
@thecoshman ok
but the original proof was about 0.9999... being 1
 
@Jefffrey or, well that's a different thing :P
 
12:13 PM
yeah, we diverted quite a bit
 
@thecoshman Mysticial is working on getting the base ten representation. The exact value of pi has been known for a while (how do you think Mysticial computes the base ten representation?)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes hehe yeah I liked that one
had already downvoted it fyi
 
It's pretty much "the killer feature of LaTeX is that it is LaTeX".
 
I think for that, you can sort of think, if 0.9999... is not 1, what does 1 - 0.9999... give you?
 
@Jefffrey OK, so the area of the points of the plane whose distance to the origin is <= 1 is pi, right?
 
12:14 PM
@thecoshman 0.000000.... with a 1 at the infinite end
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes points have no area though, I think you're example is lost in translation.
 
@thecoshman You just change the problem to showing that 0.(0)1 = 0.
 
@Jefffrey but there is no end.
 
@thecoshman but there's that 1 somewhere at the neverending end
 
@thecoshman No, it's not. Geometrical figures are sets of points. An infinite number of points has a finite area. Keep up.
 
user1804599
12:15 PM
I read that as "Shut up."
 
any number of points have no area
 
Oh, dammit.
 
user1804599
Yo momma has an area
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes isn't it more that a finite area has an infinite number of points, and thus points have no area
 
^
 
12:16 PM
I don't know why you thought important to rephrase it in a way that is not helpful.
@thecoshman I'm not talking about individual points...
 
points are perfect singularities. They have exactly zero vlume in any dimensions.
 
@thecoshman Yes, but infinite sets of points are not.
If it confuses you so much, I'll rephrase.
 
> Many two-dimensional geometric shapes can be defined by a set of points or vertices and lines connecting the points in a closed chain, as well as the resulting interior points.
 
but what are the chances of encountering an infinite set of points
 
so you need points and lines connecting the points
 
12:18 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes a circle or area N has an infinite number of points in it. That circle can be scaled to have any area, with equally infinite points within it.
 
@thecoshman And? The area is still finite.
 
@StackedCrooked pretty high here
@R.MartinhoFernandes or yeah... one of those finite infinities
 
What.
Gosh.
I'll rephrase.
 
user1804599
@thecoshman If you scale the circle the number of points scales with it.
 
What's the area of a closed disk of radius 1?
 
12:19 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's Cosh.
not gosh
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes pi (units)...
 
No explicit mention of points, for cosh's benefit.
 
mine too
 
What's the area of an open disk of radius 1?
 
user1804599
How about we get rid of the word "point" and all its derivatives?
 
12:20 PM
Wait!
 
user1804599
Pointers are confusing too!
 
You understand that a point has zero area.
That's all I need.
fires mspaint
 
lol
holy shit I'm hungry
 
puts pizza in oven
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes open disk?
 
@thecoshman circle
 
ffs lunch time you twats
 
That's the line segment defined by 0 <= x <= 1.
 
ok
 
12:23 PM
What's the length?
 
1
 
user1804599
infinity!
 
Now this is the one defined by 0 <= x < 1.
What's the length?
 
dunno
 
I removed exactly one point from it.
 
user1804599
12:24 PM
pi/pi
 
depends on how much radius you want to give to that "point"
 
@Jefffrey Points have no radius.
(Right?)
 
I know
so a length - a point makes no sense
it's a type error
 
Xeo
lol
 
user1804599
You do not do length - point.
 
12:26 PM
What about a length - the length of a point?
 
user1804599
You do line segment without point.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes point has no length
 
It has zero length.
(I can show that too, if you want...)
 
nah
it simply doesn't have a length
 
It's merely a degenerate line segment.
 
12:27 PM
oh ok, I see
yeah, a point has 0 length, maybe
go on
 
So, the length of that second one is 1 too, right?
 
yeah
kinda
yes
so, how do we get from this to 0.999... == 1?
 
Would it be a stretch to tell you can think of 1 - 0.(9) as the length of that point?
 
yes
 
I would say in both cases the end points of that segment are 0 and 1, regardless of whether it's an open segment or a closed segment. The length of a segment is defined as the distance between its end points. So in both cases the length should be 1.
 
12:32 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't see why
 
@Jefffrey The point is the least you can remove from that line segment. Just like 1-0.(9) must be the least you can go down from 1.
 
is that a convoluted pun?
 
> The point is ...
 
user1804599
using an ancient borland c++ 5.0 — user123 31 secs ago
 
12:35 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes the least you can go down from 1 is 0.999... yes
 
@Jefffrey Oh, lol.
 
what if irrational numbers weren't true numbers?
 
That sounds like philosophy.
 
ikr
 
there's no such a thing as a "true" number
 
12:37 PM
0.(9) is not irrational, btw.
 
numbers are abstractions created by humans
 
Well, that one is 1, so it muddles the point.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 0.(9) is 0.9999...?
 
0.(8) is not irrational.
@Jefffrey Right, just a shorter notation.
 
never seen it
we use a segment on top of the first 9 usually
 
12:39 PM
Yeah, that's more common, but less amenable to typing :P
 
anyway, that defeats the point
let's go ahead and assume irrational numbers are numbers
we were here:
 
why wouldn't they be?
 
I don't know why you'd assume not.
 
4 mins ago, by Jefffrey
@R.MartinhoFernandes the least you can go down from 1 is 0.999... yes
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's just an idea of mine that just rose up, don't mind it, I haven't had the chance to bash it myself yet
"the least" != 0
 
@Jefffrey Yet it is for points.
 
12:41 PM
nope
never mentioned points
I said that "the least you can down to is 0.999"
 
hi all. I am able to generate logs using log4c.
 
What I mean is that you can think of it like the points.
 
what I can think of it like a point?
 
You saw the proofs already. I wasn't going for another proof.
 
what proof?
 
12:42 PM
@Jefffrey The difference between 1 and 0.(9).
 
user1804599
@sandeep cool story
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that would be a segment
a very small segment
 
user1804599
I feel like helping people.
 
infinitesimaly small segment
 
@Jefffrey A degenerate one. Like a point.
 
12:44 PM
a degenerate one is not an infinitesimaly small one
 
It pretty much means the same.
 
would you say that a segment of length 0.000001 is degenerated to lenght 0?
 
That's not infinitely small.
 
@rightføld there you go. This one seems to need a lot
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes infinitesimaly small is still finite, though
so it's a quantity e very small != 0
it tends to 0, but it's not 0
 
12:46 PM
Oh, don't go that way. If you understand integrals, you can understand this easily.
 
the area defined between a curve and another curve/axis?
 
And compare that with the same area without the curve.
 
an integral doesn't define a correct area
it's an approximation AFAIK
 
No, it's not.
 
it's a limit defined by the width of each rectangle tending towards 0
 
12:48 PM
It's one way of formally defining lengths and areas and volumes.
 
@Jefffrey This may help
 
@Jefffrey Limits, when they exist, are not approximations.
 
depends on what you mean by approximation. what I mean is that lim (x) (with y -> z) -> w doesn't mean that x == w. Pretty much never
 
@Jefffrey So what. Limits are exact values, and integrals can represent areas .
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I just told you that they are not
 
12:51 PM
Ooops.
 
The object $\sum_{i=1}^{\infty} \frac{1}{2^i}$ is not a limit
 
@Jefffrey You told me something irrelevant.
 
you are claiming that lim (sum of (1/n)) (with n -> inf) -> 0 means that (sum of (1/inf)) == 0.
 
@Jefffrey No, I'm not.
 
No absolutely not
 
12:52 PM
@Jefffrey lolwut
 
I'm claiming that the values of limits are exact.
 
Easy counter example
 
wait a second
 
I am also claiming that areas calculated using integrals are exact.
No approximations.
 
$\sum_{n \in \mathrm{N}} \frac{1}{n}$ is divergent, despite the fact lim(1/n) (n -> +inf) = 0
 
12:54 PM
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Epic. That was in
 
someone else had the same problem I see
 
> Remark: You seem to be under the impression that limits are somehow imprecise or that they are approximations. This is incorrect. A limit is a number. It is not a process, nor an approximation, nor in any way imprecise. It is a very much fixed number that never ever changes.
Now can we move on?
 
@sehe Dude is high or what ?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit no
but it's ok, I'll do researches on my own
I'm hard to convince, I know, and it might get boring
 
12:56 PM
Well, you realized several misconceptions, so it was valuable, I think.
 
@Jefffrey In a way, I agree with you
 
@sehe He probably meant to use the tag
 
Regarding the irrational numbers thing: the square root of two is the length of the hipotenuse of an isosceles right triangle with catheti of length 1. Hard to argue it's not a "true number".
 
The definition of a limit (for a sequence), is that for any real $\epsilon > 0$you can find an index $N_0$ such that for any $n > N_0$, the value of the term will be in a interval around the limit $[ L - \epsilon; L + \epsilon ]$
 
You do know that things are much harder to read as unrendered LaTeX, right?
 
12:59 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes hey, I know it's a stupid theory
 
But in that case, you do not chose a fixed index, you let the sum "reach" infinity
Hope that helps :)
 

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