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6:00 PM
I generally just don't like the way things are taught. Frontal lessons. "This is how person X solved problem Y". I like learning while discovering much more.
 
I didn't have any problem getting a job after uni. I had a degree, a history of part-time jobs and a good knowledge of local beers.
 
If they posed the problem as: "This is problem Y, try to solve it yourself the best you can and then we'll see how person X solved it", it would probably be different.
That would have worked well with caching algorithms for example.
 
we should probably quickly assimilate discoveries done by others instead of reinventing the wheel
and concentrate on building up from there
 
@AlexM. I think that discovery helps you deeply understand the problem and get you in the correct mindset to understand the geniality of some solutions.
And it's fun.
At least it is for me.
 
Well, reinventing the wheel can be good. One that still works after running over a nail would be good, (yes, I know, run-flat tyres exist, but cost..).
 
6:02 PM
not sure that would fit in the timeframe professors and students have
 
well personally I went to university because I wanted to build applications, and they did not cater towards that at all, so
 
@AlexM. I know
 
@Puppy I'd agree that "assurance of quality" would be over-stating things. It does reduce the chances of somebody having particularly gaping holes though (IMO).
 
eh
 
@Puppy the same is true for years of experience: it depends entirely on where and how you spent those years.
 
6:03 PM
It's the usual "quality vs quantity" discussion.
School strives for quantity.
 
ever since one of my lecturers gave out marks for knowing the Unicode codepoint for e with accent, I've listed all degrees as junk.
there's simply not enough information in knowing that you have a degree.
 
Ell
@Puppy why can't you rely on reputation?
 
That's a good point and it's in line with my previous comment. However, it depends a lot on a) the skills and professionalism of that person (does he read and learn stuff, or simply types over and over the same keywords year after year?), b) the quality of the school attended by that student (are the exams really challenging? is the program really thorough?).
Without knowing anything, I think for an average person 5 (to 20) years of experience in the field are likelier to make you a better professional than 3 to 5 years of school.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's entirely true. But I would not prune candidates for not having X years of experience, generally.
 
Ell
@Puppy was your degree computer science?
 
6:04 PM
well tbh, a few geniuses and lots of workforce is better than a shitton of geniuses and a bunch few guys doing what they say
 
@Ell Because if anything, the higher reputed universities are worse.
 
@Jefffrey Not entirely at least IMO. One big problem is that it's hard to sort out the people with 10 years of experience from those with one year of experience, repeated 10 times.
 
Ell
@Puppy how come?
 
I've seen course materials from Stanford, for example, which were utter shit.
 
@JerryCoffin Probably not the message you want to ping :P
 
6:05 PM
@Puppy I didn't know Stanford did a waste-management course.
 
fact is, if you don't review the course and examinations yourself, you simply don't know what a student had to do to get his degree.
 
he could have also bought his degree!
 
^^ that.
 
and therefore, knowing that he got it simply doesn't tell you anything.
 
you know that at least they are serious enough to go trough 5 years of pain and suffering :P
 
6:07 PM
3 if in Romania
 
eh I don't really see that as a plus.
 
school is pain and suffering only if you take it seriously
so is work
 
@AlexM. 3 in italy too, but the average time to complete the degree is 5.6 years
 
@Puppy Yeah - 'stupid' rather than 'serious' :)
 
school IS pain and suffering
so much that I'm wondering if it's worth going through the final semester :A
which is extra painful
 
6:08 PM
as pressure builds up...
 
Ell
@Puppy you know at least they worked hard enough to get into the institution
 
because I have to run after a prof to show him stuff from my degree project
and whatever
 
@AlexM. Yes, it is. Especially if you're that close to that point, it's well worth the extra pain and suffering to have the degree.
 
@Ell Not at all.
 
I've seen a lot of people in my uni get a degree without pain and suffering
 
6:09 PM
I would have gotten into Bristol here and interviewed at Oxford despite the fact that I was lazy as shit.
 
I would not hire those
 
@AndyProwl smart people
 
Ell
@Puppy why didn't you go to bristol then? :P
or oxford
 
@Jefffrey "smart" yes
 
@AndyProwl ?
 
6:09 PM
I have the best hat
 
essentially because I stopped caring about academic results.
 
I refused Oxford. It was full of people I didn't want to spend time with.
 
I've said many times here that my A-level results are stuff like AAAADE.
 
@Puppy same for me.
 
@Jefffrey Cheating their way to the degree by getting help during exams, depending on other people to complete assignments and projects, etc.
 
Ell
6:10 PM
@Puppy if you were smart you wouldn't have done that imho
 
I stopped caring to the point of not showing up for exams.
 
Ell
Why would you stop caring about the thing that get's you into universities
 
depends on how stubborn you are.
because universities are irrelevant.
 
@Puppy 0xF00DFAAAADE ?
 
they achieve nothing and cost a tremendous amount of time and money for it.
 
6:11 PM
@Puppy what does that mean for a non-UK person?
 
@Jefffrey He did two years and then segfaulted.
3
 
Ell
@Jefffrey 1st year results very good, second year results not so good :3
 
@Jefffrey It means that I was doing about as well as it's possible to do and then crashed and burned out at the very end.
 
lol more of this "universities achieve nothing". y'know, except for the majority of scientific research and advancement the world over.
but who cares about that
 
@Ell Also January results in the second year (fourth A) very good.
 
6:12 PM
@Jefffrey It means he's lying. Nobody gets six A-levels.
 
I'm sorta lost.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Lost*
 
Ell
@Puppy you don't believe this
I'm sure you don't
 
what makes you think I don't?
I attended one for three years and I regularly see the bullshit they ask people to do here
 
A misplaced sense of faith
 
6:13 PM
I firmly believe that as educational institutions, they have no value.
 
and Cat says I make generalisations about Unis
 
@Puppy Was that easy for you to get to those levels?
 
Ell
@Puppy I'm sorry you don't believe this
 
@Jefffrey Trivial.
 
Ell
You can't
you really can't
 
6:13 PM
why not?
 
"Trivial" to get four As and two further A levels? you're totally full of shit
three A levels is the norm
four is common among bright students. I would not expect getting four As to be "trivial" for any but the most genius students.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit he's talking AS & A2 levels
 
@Ell then that's an absurd misrepresentation
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit he is one of the genius students then
 
@Jefffrey yeah but we know he's not
 
Ell
6:14 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't think so, he was showing his grades with passage of time - AAA -> ADE
 
we do?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It'd be interesting to see real support for that "majority" belief. I'm not sure it's false, but at least offhand I can think of a lot more that came out of commercial research institutions like IBM's TJ Watson Research Center, Bell Labs, Xerox PARC, etc., than from universities.
 
Ell
AS levels then A2 levels
 
4 mins ago, by Puppy
I've said many times here that my A-level results are stuff like AAAADE.
 
6:15 PM
@Ell what does that mean?
 
@Ell that's... not how it works
 
@Ell Yes. We had one module in January then two in June in each year.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yes it is o.O
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit how so?
 
Ell
you get AS levels first year
then you cash them in and get A2 levels
 
6:15 PM
yes but you don't list your "A level results" by enumerating the results of six separate exams.
that's dishonest
 
6 exams in 1 year?
 
Ell
they aren't exam results I don't think
 
your A level results are the final result for the entire course, constructed of all AS modules and any A2 modules that you did
 
they are the exam results in Physics of the six modules that comprised my Physics course.
 
6:16 PM
in chronological order.
 
6 modules holy shit
 
so, in fact, what he meant to say was "I've said many times here that my Physics A-level result was stuff like 'an A'"
 
how much time does 1 module take?
 
about 3.5 months
 
wait wat
 
6:17 PM
poor Jefffrey
 
3 years of physics?
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Oh. My bad :3
My apologies
 
no, two years.
 
@Ell No problem
 
1 exam in January, 2 in June, per year.
 
6:18 PM
oh
wow
 
FWIW I did the exact same thing
 
we had 1 physics course and it was 2 months and then 1 exam
 
on top of the same in Maths, and the same in a Further Maths course, concurrently
and the same in Music
 
and they removed it for future students because it was kinda pointless
 
Ell
FWIW I only did one exam in january because january exams don't exist anymore :'(
 
6:19 PM
how many different courses do you guys have?
 
@Jefffrey Four of these in the first year, then you drop one.
 
Ell
Lots of courses available. But typically you take 4 for the first year then drop one
 
we have 7 obligatory courses a year for 3 years
 
@Ell Dumb as shit, like most of Gove's changes.
 
@Jefffrey Up to the school
as I say, most people do 3.5 A levels
 
Ell
6:20 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit an unexpected combination
 
some do a full 4
 
@Jefffrey For 14-16 we do 11 courses over 2 years, so each one is fairly small, then 16-18 is 4 (-> 3) courses that are bigger over 2 years.
 
occasionally some genius will come along and shove 5 up their arse
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No, that's not even close to what he intended to say. He was very specifically trying to portray the change in results over time, and giving only a single result completely fails to show the change over time. Your bigotry about how results should be reported has overridden even the slightest hint of logic or understanding in this case.
 
I did 'General Studies', so that's my .5
 
6:21 PM
@Puppy 14-16/16-18?
 
fuck General Studies and all those who cheated with it
 
what are those?
 
@Jefffrey Ages.
 
age range.
 
Ell
@Jefffrey general studies is a fake subject basically
 
6:21 PM
I'm talking university here
 
Ell
I don't know any universities which see it as a qualification
 
ah
 
you don't begin university until you are 18 (at least here)
 
well at university I did just one subject- CS- for three years.
 
General Studies is what you do when you're not actually doing a proper fourth A Level and therefore have time to do a pretend citizenship course and get a free AS
 
Ell
6:22 PM
I used it to nap between exams
 
at 12 modules (some courses counted as 2 modules) per year.
 
@Jefffrey None of the above conversation had anything to do with University, FYI
 
It was a complete waste of time, (except for Jonie on next-to-last row of theatre).
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit meh, nobody accepts it anyway
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit oh
 
6:22 PM
@Jefffrey :)
 
but I was discussing my pre-university results when I was saying that to get into Bristol I would not have had to put in a great deal of effort.
 
@Ell quite right too!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit waaat
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I agree
 
you get to study what you want at age 14?
 
Ell
6:23 PM
it was obligatory in my school
 
@Jefffrey no not really
 
Ell
@Jefffrey kind of
you get to choose a few subjects
 
@Jefffrey To a very small degree. In reality many GCSE courses are compulsory and the rest tend to be a choice from slim pickings
 
Ell
your school often imposes certain things though
 
aww
 
Ell
6:23 PM
I got to choose 3 of my GCSEs
 
you have something like 7-8 mandatory courses and 3-4 you can choose but there's hardly any to choose from.
 
that sounds great
 
@Jefffrey I guess it's like in Italy. You choose the orientation but not really the content.
 
bigger schools can offer more choice, of course
 
Ell
I chose french, spanish & geography
 
6:24 PM
Again, though, beyond the minimum mandates of English and Science, it's ultimately up to your school
 
@AndyProwl meh, at that age you choose how hard you want to study, but the subjects are basically all the same across all schools
 
which helps explain why GCSE results are almost as useless.
 
if not even more useless
 
6:24 PM
@Ell Yeah, that's why I ended up with General Studies. There was nothing else avaiable on the curriculum unless I dropped something from [Chem, Phys, Maths].
 
maybe in some schools they teach you "technology" instead of "latin", but often that's the only difference
 
@Jefffrey That's partly true, but the subjects aren't the same. There's no Latin at Istituto Tecnico Industriale and there's no electronics at Liceo Classico
And no Greek at Liceo Scientifico
Just to say some
 
I did what I could from the technology side but there was hardly anything there.
CS was dropped at GCSE and A-level before I arrived
 
yeah, as I said, some few subjects may change
 
CS is not "technology"
 
Ell
6:26 PM
CS is applied maths really isn't it?
 
Computer Science is a misnomer anyway; it should be called Computing Science
 
More than few IMO
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit excel is not CS
 
Ell
I haven't done any CS before really.
 
@Ell yes and it's not even that "applied"
 
6:26 PM
@Ell It's not really applied.
 
@Jefffrey precisely
 
But yes, you only get to choose a vague orientation. It's not uni after all
 
@Jefffrey neither is writing C++ or Haskell junk
 
Physics is more applied maths.
 
@Jefffrey or drawing E-R diagrams
 
6:26 PM
Unless you pick some culinary school
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol
 
Ell
CS is a subset of maths then?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol
 
in so much as everything in the known universe is a subset of maths, sure
 
well, yes, effectively.
 
6:27 PM
people seriously need to stop confusing Computer Science for Software Development/Engineering or other technical roles
a CS background can certainly aid in a Software career of course
 
@AndyProwl In my university many are students from some Istituto Tecnico. I went to a Liceo (which is supposed to be the highest level school you can get at that age) and I really wish I didn't.
 
knowing the theory of algorithms can help you become a more obnoxious effective programmer
 
years of latin for literally nothing
 
@Jefffrey ecce romani
caecilius ambulavit in horto
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Can't see that happening.
 
6:28 PM
see, useful!
 
I don't remember a single thing about latin
 
my experience of my CS course is that it's totally random mathematics and then sometimes they condescend to, in the 3rd year, teach mathematics you might actually want, like algorithmic complexity.
 
@MartinJames neither can I, sadly
@Jefffrey do you know where it comes from?
 
maybe rosa, rosae... maybe
@LightnessRacesinOrbit is that a trick question?
 
@Jefffrey I went to Liceo Scientifico. I don't regret the years of Latin. My Italian is (was?) much better because of that. I also found the math background useful, to some extent.
 
6:29 PM
@Jefffrey no you said you don't remember a single thing about Latin so I am testing you to see how full of bullshit you are tonight
 
anyone teaching Latin should be shot.
 
unless you have a need to understand historical sources
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you don't believe I don't remember a single thing about latin?
 
@Jefffrey where does Latin come from?
 
6:30 PM
@AndyProwl Yeah, Liceo Scientifico is were I went too.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Romans?
 
@Jefffrey see? you do remember a single thing about Latin
bullshit meter: [|||||||--]
 
@Puppy why, because you don't care about Latin? No.
 
Nothing to say about math preparation. It's great for the math level.
 
@AndyProwl oh god don't get him started
 
It's all the bullshit around it that is astonishing.
 
6:30 PM
because there are no useful applications of Latin
 
culture is a myth, country borders are harmful, nothing except hard, practical studies for our children!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I did once try explaining what I did to some people at the club. It didn't go down well. The did not understand why my jobs were so different from those done by the SQL dev. who gets in. 'You're both in computers, so why is your work any different?'.
 
You get another iteration of history and geography for nothing.
 
unless you have a desperate need to learn about Roman culture directly from first-hand sources.
 
learning to learn is a waste of time!
 
6:31 PM
Latin, for nothing.
 
blah blah blah
 
Italian literature for nothing.
Reading dante.
seriously
 
much like all that time wasted on Shakespeare
 
wtf
 
@MartinJames What did you do to some people at the club?
 
6:31 PM
@Puppy oh, english literature too, because why not
 
@Puppy It's not just about history, it's also about languages
 
Ell
man puppy you need to get you some social education
 
Many languages come from Latin. Knowing Latin helps you understand those languages.
Same for Greek
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Inside, or on the car park? :)
 
what else was there, let's see
 
6:32 PM
no, people should stop bitching and whining about cultural shit and actually determine what they need to do and then go do it.
@AndyProwl Not as much as just learning that language directly.
 
BRB
 
if you want to learn French study French; there's no reason to also randomly study Latin.
 
Without fail everyone I've ever met in real life who walks around moaning that they never "needed" to learn Shakespeare or Latin or even Maths turns out to be an uneducated moron with racist views and scary political notions. They couldn't comprehend that not all the value of teaching was in the physical words right in front of their eyes.
 
Ell
@Puppy they only need to do what they want to do :3
 
@Puppy I'm Italian. I learnt my language quite directly. Yet learning Latin gave me a much deeper knowledge of my own language.
 
6:33 PM
well, they also need to work
 
Sadly I've given up on hoping that such people could be saved and simply resorted to enjoying the burgers they cook for me :)
 
Ell
@Puppy apart from the fact that french is a latin language :3
 
This whole 'school/uni' thread is making me depressed. Nightmare memories from long ago are resurfacing. I need beer.
 
@AndyProwl Clearly you did not, in fact, learn the parts of Italian you wanted to learn directly.
@Ell Which is totally irrelevant.
 
Learning Latin is to understanding language in general, as learning algorithm implementations is to understanding your C++ programs in general
 
6:34 PM
@Puppy What?
 
the only thing that matters is what French is right now.
 
why this should be so hard for a software developer of all people to comprehend is beyond me
 
Ell
@Puppy to you maybe
 
@MartinJames Do I need to repeat it? Alcohol is not the answer Martin. Alcohol is the question! (and "yes" is the answer).
 
@AndyProwl Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but you basically just said "I did Latin because I didn't know Italian very well. Therefore, learning Latin > learning Italian.". It seems to me like if you learned a lot about Italian from learning Latin, then you clearly did not study those aspects of Italian, or you would have already known that stuff.
 
6:36 PM
@Puppy No, I didn't say that. I said learning Latin improved my Italian a lot. I didn't say my Italian was bad to begin with.
 
@Ell There's a difference between "I'd like to study it" and "Expend billions and billions of taxpayer's money and crush the souls of hundreds of thousands of students"
 
@JerryCoffin I stand corrected. I'll get a can of Directors from the fridge. Later, I can lie down corrected.
 
Ell
@Puppy we weren't talking about economics were we?
 
@AndyProwl Well, it clearly was if you gained in Italian by learning Latin. If you started from a position of knowing Italian well, then there would have been nothing additional to learn from Latin.
 
Nor did I actually learn Latin in order to improve my Italian. I learned Latin because I had to. I simply do realize it helped me.
 
6:37 PM
@Ell Not directly; but it does have an influence here because forcing students to study things has very real costs.
 
Learning C improved my C++ a lot because it's descended from it you see
 
it's like
you don't just go adding random shit to the Standard because you can
or random features.
 
Pizza status: ordered
 
yes, teaching kids Latin in schools across the UK costs "billions and billions of taxpayer's money". of course!
 
you have to seriously assess whether or not they're worth the price.
 
6:37 PM
That's what's important
 
ITT teach children as little as possible
that sounds like a good plan
 
and this is the same thing; you can't just say "Learning Shakespeare is graet!".
you have to really assess whether or not it's worth the tremendous cost of ramming it down the throat of every single student in the country.
 
@CatPlusPlus hey that's ... a good idea ...
 
@MartinJames Sounds like an excellent plan (except, of course, that you still need to upgrade what you drink--you should drink something closer to pure alcohol).
 
but if I order pizza that will connect me to someone's culture and since culture is a bad thing I shouldn't do that.... right??
 
6:39 PM
because teaching every student has such a high cost, there should be an exceedingly high bar to be met before a thing should be approved for national education.
 
Ell
Curry status: not ordered
 
not just "er mah gerd the culture!".
 
@JerryCoffin 4.8% will do for now. I'm off to the club later, so I can upgrade as required, (or as possible).
 
I wonder... does Puppy seriously believe that every school in this entire country teaches Shakespeare on a fucking whim?
Just because he has no appreciation for the value of the arts?
 
6:40 PM
unlike what morons like Gove seem to think
 
I've not seen any indication that the syllabus is so-constructed on the basis of "er mah gerd the culture"
 
which is that we should approve totally random shit just because some random dude in our past also learned it
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Arts have value? A signed integer, I'm guessing :)
 
Gove has no control over private schools, all of which put a high value on Latin, Shakespeare and other culturish things
 
@MartinJames Yeah, that integer's certainly gotta be signed.
 
6:41 PM
So while it's fun to just blame one Government minister for something done in only a proportion of schools and for like 500 years (not just the last 3) ...
 
@MartinJames IMO, 10% is the minimum that should be tolerated.
 
@MartinJames Really?
 
@JerryCoffin 5% is the maximum that I can tolerate, (for a reasonable session, anyway).
 
RIP Joe Cocker
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit :(
 
6:44 PM
@Puppy It "clearly" wasn't. The fact that there's something you don't know about X doesn't mean your knowledge of X is bad. And often learning things related to (but different from) X give you a better perspective on X.
 
@AndyProwl No, but if you're learning a lot about X from something that is not X, then you clearly did not have a very good grasp of X to begin with.
 
user1804599
'sup rednecks
 
@MartinJames I'll admit, I sort of cheat. When I drink, it's usually a mixed drink, then two large glasses of water before the next drink.
 
@rightføld School/uni/latin/fuckKnows.
 
6:46 PM
@JerryCoffin Fortunately, I have a prescribed immunity to alcohol.
 
@rightføld Puppy is trying to convince Andy that he doesn't know his own language because the arts suck and culture doesn't exist
 
Oh - and alcohol.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit .. in Nottingham.
 
@MartinJames Hard to dispute that
 
@MartinJames At only 4.8%, alcohol is quite a ways down.
 
rules link is gone from starboard btw
 
6:47 PM
@JerryCoffin I like to drink for more than 10 minutes.
 
@Puppy No, that's not true. Learning functional languages for instance did give me a better perspective on functional programming in C++. There's no way I could have earned that perspective by just doing more C++.
 
I can't see it either.
 
6:48 PM
right, but that has nothing to do with C++ and everything to do with how you were going to use C++.
5
 
Vote for your favourite
 
which are totally different things.
 
what you're describing is more like learning Haskell -> "Oh, so I put typename there".
 
how you're going to use C++ "has nothing to do with C++". I see...
 
6:49 PM
No, the link between functional programming and template metaprogramming is hard to get if you only focus on writing templates
 
it's also irrelevant if you only focus on writing templates.
 
user1804599
Your ass is also irrelevant.
 
if you're just writing templates, it's nothing more than a curiosity that they happen to resemble some other system that you're not working with.
 
user1804599
It's about as irrelevant as your ass being irrelevant.
 
I thought you liked ass?
 
user1804599
6:51 PM
Not dog ass.
 
user1804599
The other kind of bitch'.
 
Seriously, though, vote for one of my rules links
 
user1804599
No, fu.
 
@Puppy You never learned anything by analogy did you?
 
6:51 PM
Why don't I have any sockpuppets?
 
There are things which are easier to understand if you learn them in a different context and then transpose them
 
user1804599
If you don't read the rules you'll be sent to Azkaban.
4
 
analogy directly implies that you are actually dealing with something more abstract which you have failed to correctly pull out.
 
I like how the SO "sign up" page is completely unreachable.
 
user1804599
Better pin that one instead.
 
6:52 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Because you are a sock-puppet.
 
@rightføld Not enough bold
 
for example, you might say that programming in Haskell and template metaprogramming are both ways of doing functional programming.
 
lol I had to enable TLS in IE because IE has TLS off by default wut
 
but everything you gain from this has absolutely nothing to do with Haskell and everything to do with the Haskell-independent functional programming paradigm.
 
user1804599
6:53 PM
lol wat
 
user1804599
Which IE?
 
@Puppy They're not really aspects of functional programming--just ways of doing functional programming.
 
yeah aspects was a bad choice of words.
 
@Puppy Some things are easier learned by analogy than "correctly pulled out"
 
user1804599
Discovering similarities allows you to carry over techniques which I think is immensely useful.
 
6:55 PM
@rightføld 9
 
user1804599
Which OS?
 
Also, learning Latin teaches you how to structure sentences, it teaches you relationships between words, it simply gives you more perspective. You can use that when writing in other languages. Just like learning Haskell gives you a better knowledge on the functional paradigm, which you can use for writing better C++ programs.
2
 
user784668
@MartinJames can you lot win 1-0 tonight, pretty please?
 
Getting to know functional "patterns" from C++ is much harder.
Yeah sure you may pull them out, but it's much easier to learn them in a different context and then transpose them
 
6:57 PM
I believe it's much easier to learn things in the context in which you're actually going to use them.
 
@Fanael lol, I've bet on a draw. Stoke have done OK against big teams before, but Chelski actually have a viable defense :(
 
then you learn things that actually matter to the task at hand directly.
for example, learning about monads in Haskell may be great, but many people here have opined that they have very low value in C++ without language support.
 
I agree with that
 
and there exist quite a few parallel algorithms/containers for example where GC makes their complexity a lot lower.
 
But understanding ranges by looking at C++ tutorials is much harder than understanding lazy evaluation and algorithms on lists in Haskell. When you understand how things work there, then it's much easier to figure out what ranges boil down to in C++
 
user784668
6:59 PM
@MartinJames Think of it this way: if you win, Liverpool will be bottom half.
 
@AndyProwl That's because ranges don't exist in C++ unless you make them.
 

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