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3:00 AM
oh, right. Well, I never know what the socially accepted response to any of these questions is. Normally I end up giving some awkward and in appropriate response.
actually, nothing special. Seeing that it's X-mas holidays and I got a bit more time on my hands I thought I'd have a look...
 
Ell
@DietmarKühl hi
 
@Ell: Hi!
 
Ell
Have you written an article about what you'd do differently were you to design iostreams again? I'd love to read that
Besides that, how are you? :)
 
hm. no, not really. There isn't really that much I'd do different with respect to the interface anyway.
There are things I'd like to do to an implementation to improve its performance but I guess that's not what most people are after.
 
Ell
People commonly don't use iostreams for performance reasons but I'm more interested in the interface as you say
 
3:05 AM
I'm good and I have managed to do some work over the last week to get rid one of the other monkeys on my back: I had a reasonable stab at implementing STL-like algorithms using a better interface.
it is actually interesting when people don't use IOStreams for performance reasons: what do they use if the need formatted I/O?
 
Ell
I'm not sure. I guess they write it themselves
 
writing characters is quite fast using streams (short is good): dietmar-kuehl.de/cputube/write-characters.html
... and formatting integers is also quite good dietmar-kuehl.de/cputube/write-ints.html
 
@DietmarKühl Most of the time I've heard people say "streams are slow" it was followed by printf/scanf code.
 
@DietmarKühl Probably printf.
It's easier to use.
 
3:07 AM
yes printf() and scanf() seems to be slow.
 
Usually faster.
 
xD (That's sad though, should be 4K)
 
old
 
... and I have never found a program which makes substantial use of scanf() and gets the format specifies correct.
 
4K for the win!
 
3:08 AM
I like scanf.
I wish I could have a type safe version of scanf.
 
@MarkGarcia: yes, I'm aware of the fact that MSVC++ still ships with an implementation created by PJ.Plauger to prove that IOStreams have to be slow.
he was wrong and he still is wrong.
 
Ell
I forgot what scanf does
 
STL why don't you save us?
 
Ell
Tokenizes based on a delimeter?
 
@DietmarKühl Hahaha XD Do you know how old that implementation is?
 
Ell
3:11 AM
@DietmarKühl it amazes me how Microsoft can ship such a bad (in comparison) compiler
Not that GCC has no funding but my guess is it has significantly less than Microsoft
 
@MarkGarcia That article is pretty bad.
 
@Rapptz: once I got rid of some of the monkeys currently bugging me, I may look at defining a type-safe interface akin to scanf() and printf(). With variadic templates it should be possible to do something quite decent.
 
But the comments brought some interesting tidbits.
 
@Borgleader: yes. It was written ~199[3-6].
 
Ell
Iirc @Rapptz wrote his own typesafe printf
 
3:12 AM
Yeah I did.
I implemented different variants.
printf syntax, Python-style syntax, C# style syntax and then settled with my own syntax.
 
@Ell So did Alexandrescu (sort of) for a talk he gave IIRC
 
Ell
Doesnt it increase compile time significantly to parse the format string at compile time?
 
I did a type safe scanf mock up once.
 
BTW, just a thought, could postfix units for strings ("blah"s) be used for optimizing temporary strings? Like how Qt does with QStringLiteral?
 
@Ell I don't parse it at compile time.
 
3:13 AM
@Ell: re scanf(): it does roughly the same as IOStreams although it actually has some interesting parsing facilities which are not available for IOStreams. Something which may be reasonable to address using user-defined literals, thinking of it...
 
well not "scanf"
it was very barebones to see if it was possible
 
@Ell: the format string can be checked against the arguments at run-time.
 
Ell
@Rapptz oh. Just throw a runtime error if the types don't match at runtime?
 
@Ell Yeah.
here's that scanf mock-up: ideone.com/OCbu3A
 
one of the key advantages of stdio format strings over IOStreams is that you can provide them at run-time (although I'm aware that thiey are rarely used that way).
 
3:14 AM
it's very old so
 
I think the first question to be answered about a new printf()/scanf() is: does it support positional arguments?
 
mine does
 
my expectation is that it would. The next question is, of course: is it still 100% compatible with valid stdio format strings?
 
no
I found glaring issues with printf style syntax that couldn't be addressed
 
... and while both of these goals seems desirable, I don't think they can simultanuously be met. Which, sadly, means that there are fraction fighting over who's right.
 
3:17 AM
that were possible with iostreams and vice versa
 
Ell
Boy its 03:17
 
like for example, printf does not allow you to specify the fill character
 
Ell
I need to sleep
 
But std::setfill exists.
 
the formatting seems to be mostly equivalent. The parsing is the more interesting bit where there are more differences.
 
3:18 AM
@Ell Sleep well.
 
Ell
Night @Rapptz, @DietmarKühl
 
Night.
 
Ell
@MarkGarcia cheers, night
 
night! ;)
(over here it is already 04:19)
 
10:19 PM.
 
3:20 AM
11:20 AM
Other side!
 
... but I'm nocturnal.
 
@DietmarKühl Alrighty, thanks.
Off to bed now, gotta be up at 5:30 tomorrow
 
@Borgleader Sleep well as well.
 
good night! ;)
 
night all
 
lol
 
Since C has it, would be interesting for C++?
well, C's restrict is, of course, entirely broken and users don't understand how to use it anyway. So, if we'd want something like restrict in C++ I guess we'd better get a working and useful version.
 
There's a question on GoingNative last year on the topic of MSVC's vectorization on whether the compiler can theoretically use standard-mandated guarantees on containers (e.g. vectors can't overlap). Seems like the direction we should be taking.
Er, s/we/compiler writers/
 
that only works for the not so-interersting-cases, i.e., when people apply operations to containers rather than subranges.
I entirely realize that most people seem to never figure out that you can use different arguments for algorithms than v.begin() and v.end() but once you do proving that ranges don't alias isn't as trivial all of a sudden.
 
3:40 AM
Hm. Maybe restrict on the types themselves, not on variables as you can't prove them on non-trivial cases. But I don't know if that's possible (or useful, or sensible).
 
Wow.
Someone submitted an issue to my dead project.
What should I do?
I didn't even think someone used this.
I'm... somehow surprised
 
lol
 
hm. normally you bestow something when you are dead rather than the item being bestowed is dead but maybe that code be a case for the reverse approach...
 
My last commit to it was 1 year ago.
It's obviously not under any maintenance.
 
user1646075
@Rapptz How flattering! How serious is the issue?
 
3:44 AM
It is very strange :)
 
I should restart my project initiation frenzy this holidays.
> 1
 
ikr.
 
wow
 
I'm as dumbfounded as you buddy.
 
user1646075
@MarkGarcia How's this for a hobby - find projects at least a year old, and issue bug reports.
 
3:45 AM
I switched to a python script.
 
> we
I CAN'T CONTAIN!!!
 
Scary isn't it
 
user1646075
> Please provide a configure script.
 
user1646075
Oh no worries. Done.
 
I wrote this when I was helping my university's C++ class.
I couldn't stuff python installations into a flash drive
and I needed a way to make a small IDE/compiler/build system package fit in a 2 GB flash drive.
 
3:48 AM
I wouldn't call this an "issue", though!
that's a feature request
 
user1646075
good call
 
lol yeah
But I'm feeling slightly responsible.
 
user1646075
Solution: feel free to contribute.
 
user1646075
did you know it was being used so seriously?
 
Nope.
It was just a toy project for said college kids.
 
user1646075
3:49 AM
sounds like Case Closed, your Honour.
 
@Rapptz Can those be done with the current features?
 
user1646075
awwwww
 
At least you could provide him workarounds and tell him the bad news that it's dead.
 
I could redirect him to sen.py.
 
dat name
I thought you hate word play!
 
3:50 AM
I made an exception because it's truly great.
 
good night!
 
Good night.
 
Night.
 
You should come back again when the Euros log in.
 
user1646075
Dayyum - I switched on MAC address filtering for my wireless, and it doesn't seem to cope with my VM's bridged adaptors.
 
user1646075
3:52 AM
what do.
 
user1646075
stop being paranoid i guess.
 
Santa needs to know what I really want for Christmas: GLFW 3.1
 
@GuruAdrian I usually wave off projects > ~1 year old. But seeing how Rapptz reacts, that's becoming to look more fun to me. ;)
@Nooble I stopped liking GLFW when they became overly pointeristic.
It's workable, but it just became ugly. :(
 
@VáclavZeman Avengers, I believe.
 
user1646075
@MarkGarcia unfortunately it can become more than a hobby. See also using Rails and all the ½-assed 'gems' out there ;-<<
 
3:59 AM
@MarkGarcia But it's so simple, which is why I personally prefer it.
I also don't understand why the hell they're making me use a pointer for almost every object.
For now, I'll just ignore it. <===== This will have some negative consequences down the road.
@GuruAdrian Fancy half sign.
 
user1646075
@rightføld Did you really say that? Arrrgh! The pinnacle of line noise programming. Give me pretty little greek letters and maths symbols any day. I'll texta them onto my keyboard if necessary.
 
user1646075
@Nooble I haz a compose and I'm not afraid to use it!
 
Yeah well, ¾.
And ¼.
 
user1646075
™!
 
user1646075
i learned a month ago. - how to switch it on. so modern.
 
4:07 AM
I use alt-codes.
Alt+0153 makes ™
 
user1646075
compose key is cool 'cos many combo's are surprisingly intuitive - if you can guess 2 or 3 keys that visually might register, chances are it works.
 
user1646075
¢ € £ ¥
 
@Nooble Well, the various C API's may have something to do with it. How would you prefer to process very large chunks of image data that have to be passed through OS and driver interfaces?
 
I have macro keys bound to some unknown chat shortcuts back when I used to play TF2 competitively.
Let's see...
(ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง
Ahh, that.
@MartinJames GLFW processes image data?
I thought it was only a context and input-handling API.
I know it used to have an image loader, but it was taken out because no one was using it. And also, I believe they were using a really weird format.
 
@thecoshman I took a christmas break.
:P
wait
I'm stupid
 
user1646075
4:19 AM
@Nooble some scripts are very artistic. I like looking at Thai
 
@GuruAdrian Lenny pleases all.
 
do you guys think that implementing a Lisp interpreter would be a good way to learn Lisp?
 
user1646075
4:37 AM
learning LISP would be a better way to learn LISP...
 
user1646075
but then, a trivial mark-sweep collector on a trivial node allocating system is not that difficult either, and would be a lot of fun
 
user1646075
4:54 AM
Eeek - Under construction? Should it not therefore have a little ani-gif of someone digging?
 
@GuruAdrian why do you link to cplusplus.com?
 
user1646075
'cos googles sent me there. I'm inspired to see if the post-modern smart pointers could be useful to avoid mark sweep in you hypothetical lisp interpreter. I'm so bored I'm temped to bang something out.
 
> 'cos googles sent me there

No it didn't.
 
user1646075
didn't it?
 
May I introduce you to Personal Blocklist Chrome?
I blacklisted cplusplus.com so that cppreference is on top
I honestly haven't regretted blacklisting cplusplus.com a single time
 
user1646075
5:01 AM
heh - you know the next sentence I'm about to say... I really should pay more attention I guess. The shared pointer entry was ok, and then clicking through the see-also to weak pointer gave the dud page.
 
user1646075
actually a firefox alias for cpp -> cppreference could fill a few minutes.
 
I have a custom search engine for google chrome
if I type in the omnibar cpp<space> whatever I'll type next searches on cppreference
so if I type cpp vector I'll go to en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/container/vector
 
user1646075
cool - I'm use ff just because I like some of the plugins. ff can do a thing like that, but stuffed if i can remember how the params are encoded until I start hacking. I should time myself.
 
user1646075
geez - that was quick. ff recognised it as a search and offered to make it for me. The end!
 
user1646075
i should make more shortcuts
 
user1646075
 
user1646075
His cell structure is huge.
 
hell
I might try and implement Lisp in Rust
double-win
 
user1646075
double-learn? sounds like a plan
 
user1646075
I'm feeling old-school nodes composed of 2 words and stolen bits for type encoding is more than ample. None of this is mysterious any more.
 
user1646075
5:36 AM
oh hell - @Rapptz - what about this response regarding Shinobi: "Feel free to make a fork at any time". The formal way to sweep support under the rug.
 
6:35 AM
Morning
 
Morning
 
Morning
 
6:53 AM
needs more burgers
 
7:19 AM
I think I'll start with learning Scheme
 
user1646075
Done. You've got me thinking about a lisp interp now, and I'm investigating a read-line loop with interrupt handling. This will go nowhere...
 
7:40 AM
> Rust compiler uses gcc as a linker driver, and will search for it in the system PATH before searching in the private directory. This means that any other versions found on PATH will override the one bundled with Rust, and may cause linking errors if they aren't compatible. The solution is to strip down the PATH in the console session used to launch rustc.
"The solution is to strip down the PATH in the console session used to launch rustc."
what a fucking joke
"Our code is broken, therefore you will have to fuck up your entire environment."
I like Rust, I like LLVM, but both (Rust probably inherited it from LLVM) treat Windows as a third-class semi-citizen
 
c++ is really a nice language
time to make an answer key for the book i am working through cehplusprime.wordpress.com/2014/12/22
 
Considering that C++ compilers give better warnings than C compilers, making your code C++ compilable is worth the downside IMHO. — ArtB Mar 23 '11 at 17:02
Welcome to some sort of type safety, C programmers.
 
void* <3
 
%rsp <3
 
int main?
 
7:53 AM
std::cout &amp;amp;lt;&amp;amp;lt; &amp;quot;Hello,&amp;quot; &amp;amp;lt;&amp;amp;lt; &amp;quot;World! \n&amp;quot; &amp;amp;lt;&amp;amp;lt; std::endl;
lol
 
gg
 
=O i gotz a view!!
lol
hopefully who ever looks at it has bad english so they do not notice my shitty grammer and spelling errors
 
you're in the wrong place for bad English
 
But MEH ENGRISH!!!
stack overflow english hates me
 
@nsij22 I viewed, and I just saw &amp;s
 
7:55 AM
@nsij22 I viewed and was disappoint.
 
lol @Jefffrey arhres! i jsut started
i was so happy to just get the code tags to look all pretty
 
I was disappoint with the HTML escaping of code characters.
 
oh what?
 
Have you reread your post just once?
 
&amp;&amp;&amp;&amp;&amp;&amp;&amp;&amp;&amp;&amp;&amp;
amp it up!
 
7:57 AM
Iunno, you usually write a post and then read it again to check for mistakes?
return 0 and int argc, const char * argv[] are not necessary
 
god fucking damn it how does that even, it was good then i changed the style
 
it doesn't even
 
lol herpa derpa derp
 
I can't even
 
ty
 
7:59 AM
don't use std::endl, use \n
 
@Jefffrey I consider them good style though
 

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