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10:07 AM
@thecoshman Why start over?
 
10:18 AM
@thecoshman I hope that's not sarcastic, or I'll propose a rule against sarcasm.
 
I'll propose a rule that you can't make a rule against sarcasm :P
 
@thecoshman Have you forfeited already?
If not, don't forfeit.
If you let @R.MartinhoFernandes alone, he will be able to remove points.
 
It's a life or death matter
Don't let the communists win
inb4 Lounge farm
 
It'd be pointless for me to do that. You could just start your own game with everything as it was before I was left alone.
 
10:25 AM
That would make no sense
 
It would be just like a coup.
 
You would keep going on with the "official one" and eventually just convince everybody that that was the official one and that it's bad to fork a new game every time you don't like a rule
... which is true.
 
Any change I'd do on my own would only have meaning when given approval by others.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Then forfeit first.
 
I don't want to forfeit.
 
10:27 AM
Why?
 
Because we can just skip the turns?
Why is it ok for cosh to remain alone?
 
8 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Any change I'd do on my own would only have meaning when given approval by others.
@R.MartinhoFernandes What's the point in going on and keep getting absence penalties?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Cosh is forever alone
 
@Jefffrey ... no... robot is the only person who has stayed in, I'm still in the game, but I haven't been so constantly.
@R.MartinhoFernandes some people might be more willing to join if the game is starting over.
 
10:38 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lmao
 
"Very Well Coded"™
</channeling_@Cat>
 
@thecoshman And some people might be less willing to join if the game is starting over :/
 
I'm surprised you didn't revert it @Lightness
 
I would be ok with starting over.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes let me be clear, I don't want to start over, but if it meant people would be willing to join, then I' ok with that. I would rather people just join in where we are.
 
10:41 AM
Anyway, @thecoshman if you vote for here nomic.loungecpp.net/t/proposal-332/158, we can officially pause it.
 
hey
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm ok with removing points. But I need to know the alternative so that we can make breaking the rules punishable again.
 
10:47 AM
Hmm, time to print some Paranoia forms.
Wish I had carbon paper.
 
order some
 
Not gonna get it in time for tomorrow.
 
apply time travel
 
Nah, I'll just print each form three times and require the players to fill them in triplicate by hand. :P
(Not really)
 
email them the forms, make them fill them out once digitally, then print them in triplicate.
 
10:53 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes in time.
@R.MartinhoFernandes which what?
 
@Puppy They're props for the game. Doing that would kinda ruin the propiness.
@thecoshman I'm running a session of Paranoia tomorrow (@Xeo's in it!).
 
> Visual C++ 2013's IntelliSense (based on the EDG compiler, as far as I know) also flags the call as ambiguous. Funnily enough, the VC++ compiler goes ahead and compiles the code with no errors, choosing #2. (Yay! It agrees with me, so it must be right.)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes which ones that? also, when?
 
@thecoshman The same I ran with you guys online once.
 
oh... in person?
 
10:58 AM
Yes.
 
lol, a downvote
 
user1804599
IIFE is so silly.
 
user1804599
Fuck JS scoping.
 
had a few problems in TypeScript with totally WTF variable scoping.
 
user1804599
11:02 AM
Wait, that can be much simpler lol: gist.github.com/rightfold/54908fa6919d8d91d754
 
user1646075
 
user1646075
thanks for the xmas card @rightføld
 
user1804599
Fuck Christmas.
 
user1646075
lolz
 
> Bilbo's Paradox: when a movie is continually subdivided into more and more sequels, approaching the end of the series but never reaching it.
Funny and all, but how is that a paradox?
 
user1646075
11:08 AM
Like that greek story. Something paradox. Damn. Achilles running to a point but never getting there etc.
 
user1646075
Zeno's paradox!
 
That doesn't look like a paradox.
 
user1804599
I want to eat chicken.
 
How does it contradict itself?
 
user1646075
but you can never reach the fridge
 
11:09 AM
lol
 
user1646075
 
user1804599
 
user1646075
didn't know you were russian
 
user1646075
rushin' for chicken maybe....
 
user1804599
Cool, clang optimises printf to puts.
 
11:20 AM
not really cool
better to simply error on the use of printf.
@Jefffrey It's not a paradox.
like many such arguments, it basically sums down to "I don't understand infinity".
 
It is a paradox.
Most invalid proofs are paradoxes.
 
user1804599
It's nearly Christmas, so disallowing smileys with beards would be sad. — rightføld just now
 
hm
 
I can see how Zeno's one is a paradox. For the way it is formulated it, the contradiction is that Achille seems to never surpasses the tortoise, while we know that it will. But in the Bilbo formulation there's no such a contradiction that I can see.
 
user1646075
yeah - it was a paradox to the greeks because they knew they could pass a slower moving person, but the theory from zeno messed with their heads, man.
 
11:27 AM
Woah C++17
Where do I read about it?
 
Here: ""
 
@Jefffrey Yes, but the way it's formulated is incorrect, since we know that an infinite series can have a finite sum, so Achilles can in fact surpass the tortoise.
 
:P
 
whereas the paradox is based on the assumption that the infinite series cannot have a finite sum.
 
@GuruAdrian They have been refuted by the Greeks.
 
11:29 AM
@Puppy Is pi finite?
 
which particular aspect of pi?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes did anyone write anything readable about C++17 yet?
 
also I don't see what that has to do with the non-paradox.
 
user1804599
 
It doesn't.
 
11:29 AM
Also - Zeno's paradox is a non paradox
 
user1646075
@R.MartinhoFernandes they liked to argue
 
I'm just trying to understand the infinite-series-can-have-a-finite-sum thingy
 
@rightføld so messy :S still cool but messy
 
user1804599
I have the same keyboard as the guy.
 
user1804599
It's one of the worst keyboards I've ever used.
 
11:30 AM
1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + ... doesn't seem to have a finite sum
 
user1646075
@Puppy we know, but they didn't have the maths. Tell this to a school kid and it will mess with theirs. Think I'll tell it to mine
 
it sums to 1 or 2, if I recall correctly.
 
because you keep summing things for an infinite number of times
 
user1646075
@Jefffrey genies all the way down.
 
Hi
 
user1804599
11:31 AM
Hello @Yash!
 
@Puppy wasn't it a fraction?
 
@Jefffrey True, but they also become infinitely smaller.
 
@Jefffrey it sums to 2
 
@Jefffrey It is.
 
@Jefffrey I don't remember exactly what the sum is, but I'm pretty sure it was a whole number.
 
11:32 AM
this shit makes me so mad and I don't even know why
 
@Rerito 1.
What sums to 2 is 1/1 + 1/2 + ...
 
Wait, 1.99999... = 2?
 
i.e. 1 + the above.
 
@Jefffrey Already well-known.
 
11:33 AM
@Jefffrey Yes.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Correct, my bad I counted the "^0" term
 
Oh, right.
Still wrapping my head around that one.
 
Proof is simple: 1/3 = 0.3333.... 1/3 * 3 = 0.3333... * 3 = 0.9999... = 1.
 
user1646075
@Jefffrey you haven't done highschool maths?
 
user1646075
should learn that proof about age 14-ish
 
11:34 AM
@GuruAdrian High school maths doesnt teach any infinite sum nowadays
 
I've a question. Please read and help. I've created a Qt app. App is using shared API library. Using SWIG I've created wrapper on this API. This library contains extern variables which are defined in app. How to access app's instance (or say some pointer of app) inside this python wrapper.
 
no.
 
user1646075
@Rerito waaaaaaaaa?
 
@Puppy Fastest gun in the West
 
@GuruAdrian I don't recall that one in school at any point. But I remember that someone linked a video to it here. And I remember watching it.
But I'm still not convinced.
 
11:35 AM
@Rerito Smallest response text -> fastest response time.
 
I understand the proof, but I'm not convinced.
So I always forget.
 
user1646075
@Jefffrey the proof that .9-repeat (I can't draw a dot on top) equals 1.
 
@Yash Try asking on the Question part of the site.
 
user1804599
 
@GuruAdrian Yes ... Just the basic geometric sequence n-terms sum, integration basics
 
11:36 AM
I have already did. No help yet.
:(
 
That is not a good question for Stack Overflow. Ignore the silly people.
 
10*0.(9) = 9.(9); 10*0.(9) - 9 = 0.(9). Now solve 10*x-9 = x.
 
But no such things as integration on an open interval (including one that is bounded by infinity)
 
@Jefffrey Personally, I'd suggest that the difference between 0.99... and 1 must be infinitely small, which is more intuitive.
 
> I have no idea. Can someone point in right direction or any other pointer?
 
11:36 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit How so?
 
^ this is not a good question, either
@Jefffrey It is 100% vague and 0% clear
needs code, details, specifics
if he posted that I'd close it
 
@Yash Ah, excellent, then I can downvote you.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit If he posted that here, I'd bin it on sight.
 
haha... so this way you want me to help.
 
Fastest nuke in the West ?
 
11:38 AM
I can post but its huge project
 
No, no. Make it small.
 
@Puppy It is. But AFAIK the intuition that x -> 0 doesn't mean much outside of a lim.
 
and definitely not here
 
I mean, lim (sum from 1 to infinite of (1 / 2 ^ n)) -> 1. I might understand that.
But == 1. Nah.
 
11:39 AM
@Jefffrey Well, in this case, x -> 0 isn't the same thing, because there's no other variable we're ranging over.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That has been for a few years now.
 
@Jefffrey Have you got trouble with the integral of something being equal to something ?
 
x is arbitrarily close to zero, all the time.
 
Because it is the same thing here !
 
there's no limit involved
 
11:40 AM
@Puppy In theory I'm asking.. is it possible to shar pointer b/w static shared library ( like lib.a ) and lib.so (lib.so is created from lib.a)
 
you say that like I'd help you
 
@Puppy If you need more details you should add comment not just -1..-1 is always simple to give
 
@Yash Sounds like a good question to put on the Questions part of the site too.
 
@Rerito I don't know what you mean.
 
Just expand it a bit.
 
11:41 AM
With a Clint Eastwood-esque voice. This punk seems to like the taste of led
 
I don't need more details since I have no intention of helping you.
 
@Jefffrey Can I try to convince you?
 
@Puppy I'm not starving of your help. But why -1 anyways... Enjoy adding ;)
 
@Puppy That was just random notation. Ignore it. See this instead.
@R.MartinhoFernandes go ahead
 
Do you agree that the sum is not greater than 1?
 
11:43 AM
yes
 
@Jefffrey For example $\int_{0}^{1} x dx = \frac{1}{2}$
 
user1646075
@Jefffrey dude just imagine that first you count the series for ever - then you get there! woooahhh!
 
Let's call the sum S. Consider 1 - S.
 
which is infinitely small
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that was the proof given by the video
but go ahead
 
11:43 AM
@Puppy nice name haha
 
Oh wait, you need to understand something else.
 
I guess what it really comes down to is 1 / inf = 0.
 
The problem is not the value itself, it's the equality
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 1-S seems to be infinitesimaly small
 
I think.
 
11:44 AM
@Puppy Yeah.
 
but it doesn't make sense to use S as a number, because it's not
I think
 
But that's still a confusing notion.
 
@Jefffrey It is. The whole point is that S is a finite number.
 
eh
 
@Jefffrey Everything can be a number. The interesting question would be whether it is a real number.
 
11:45 AM
infinity is not a number really
 
sqrt(-1) is a number after all.
 
it's a limit
 
no
no it is not.
 
@Puppy It can be.
 
from what I've been taught 1/inf is not 0, it's lim (1/n) (with n -> inf).
 
11:46 AM
infinity is basically a whole different type to the real numbers... the same rules and intuitions do not apply in general.
 
@Jefffrey Correct.
 
wait, wat
 
Is this now Lounge<Calculus>?
 
Ok consider this: what's the area of the points of the plane whose distance to the origin is <= 1?
 
user1646075
@TonyTheLion anything but C++
 
11:47 AM
(That's a unit circle)
 
pi.
 
@GuruAdrian of course, thats our motto
 
What's the area of the points of the plane whose distance to the origin is < 1?
 
... also pi?
 
No mate that is not your debugger — Lightness Races in Orbit 8 secs ago
sigh
 
11:48 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes doesn't seem so
seems more like a weird polygon
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, I'm aware. I posted the text because it has a contradiction in it.
 
wat
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ... if you are talking about a plane, then you must be talking in 3D and thus mean a sphere
 
to be a unit circle the distance from the origin would be == 1, not <= 1
 
11:48 AM
("Zipped XML files" aren't "a binary format"... in which world?)
 
right, but he was talking about the points, not the circumference.
 
lim (1/C) while(C++)
 
A unit circle has radius one
 
@Jefffrey Oh sorry, might be a translation mishap.
 
the circumference's distance from origin is ==1.
it's not phrased as we would in English really but not incorrect or non-circular.
 
11:50 AM
In Portuguese we have different words for just the line and for the whole thing. The one for the whole thing is the cognate of "circle".
The one for the line is cognate with "circumference".
 
also, with "area of the points" I assume you mean the area of the shape described by a specific looping path with these points.
 
no
he just means the area of the circle with radius 1.
 
Seems in English it's "circle" (curve) and "disk" (whole thing).
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You've been promoted. Congratulations you are now a debugger. gdb-style
 
because AFAIK points don't have area
 
11:51 AM
@Jefffrey A set of points is a geometrical figure (well, can be).
 
eh, can be :P
 
user1804599
Eww geometry.
 
Degenerate cases and shit.
Anyway, if you can understand that the closed disk and the open disk have the same area, you can understand that the sum is equal to 1.
 
anyway, the area of a unit circle (with radius 1) is pi
 
Xeo
soup
 
11:52 AM
but pi was probably calculated the same way 1/inf = 0 is
 
doesn't matter what the value of pi is
as long as it's a finite real number
 
@Jefffrey No, it's pi * r^2. Doesn't matter though. Call it X.
 
user1804599
I like imaginary integers.
 
This would work with squares too. Pi is not relevant. It's only easier to describe a circle.
 
@Jefffrey yeah, as I understand it, points are or zero size, thus an infinite amount of points can fit inside any area...
 
11:54 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, ok, but I can't assume pi is a finite number, because I don't know how pi was calculated and could have been calculated in the way you are trying to demonstrate it correct, which is .... faulty.
 
@Jefffrey Pi is definitely finite.
All real numbers are finite.
 
eh
 
if pi was infinite, you would have a circle with infinite area, which is blatantly not true.
 
Please don't confuse numbers with their representation.
 
ok, let's say that I'm ok with X being a finite number
 
11:56 AM
@Jefffrey you don't have to know how you calculate pi to understand it's finite.
 
Is there any benefit of marking a virtual HDD as SSD in VirtualBox even when the underlying storage on my PC is old mechanical HDD?
 
@Jefffrey No, no. You seem to be confusing finite numbers with finite decimal representations.
The latter is irrelevant.
 
@thecoshman true, but a number with an infinite number of digits, seems a lot like what can be represented with an infinite sum
 
pi is definable as half the circumference of a unit circle. And it's very clear that unit circle has finite circumference.
 
user1804599
Prove it.
 
11:58 AM
@Jefffrey a number with infinite (decimal) digits is still finite.
 
like, 3.141592... can be represented via 3 + 1/10 + 4/100 + 1/1000 + 5/1000 etc...
 
user1804599
let pi = 3
 
@Jefffrey There is a finite representation for pi. It's π. There are also finite representations for infinities. It's not relevant.
 
and what robot is trying to convince me of is that such an infinite sum is a finite number
 
@Jefffrey not precisely though. At some point, you would produce a rounding error.
 
11:58 AM
Shut up, cosh.
3
 
which was the problem at the very beginning
@thecoshman that's what I'm saying, I think
wait
no
 
Wait, what? No, rounding errors are not relevant.
 
to consider pi finite, you would have to make a rounding error
 
We can do all calculations exactly here.
@Jefffrey No.
 

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