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10:00 PM
@Aberrant No. If you want plain sailing, use Java (not really), or C# (in the end).
 
So this seems interesting regarding rule of immutability..
http://bartoszmilewski.com/2013/12/10/functional-data-structures-and-concurrency-in-c/
 
@BartekBanachewicz except, they weren't so raw
@rightfold in c++, either you own the object or the object owns your program :)
It's a dog-own-dog world
 
@sehe Nah I'm liking the challenge in learning C++ and in the end you can do more with it.
(also I hate C# with a passion)
 
@Aberrant no. big fat no. References are references :)
 
I actually think C# isn't that bad. Far better than Java.
 
10:03 PM
I don't understand what kind of person thinks it is acceptable to walk down a street and leave a bible verse on every single car
 
@Aberrant I love C#. But C++ brings more fun
 
Wow am I the only person here who likes Java over C# :o
 
@Chimera you do remember how the game is plaid in the lounge :)
 
JVM is kinda eh
 
@Aberrant Likely. Why would you like java over C#
 
10:04 PM
@sehe Of course. :-)
 
Hotspot is okay.
 
its a vendor locked in VM that serves only one master
Sun/ORacle
 
hah.
turns out I simply removed the !() functionality without noticing.
 
@Aberrant I use both at work, and I vastly prefer .NET ecosystem. Java used to have the advantage there. But that was ... before ~2004-2006. Maybe
 
Can I go to church services and leave detailed tracts on why they are acting out delusions in order to not be frightened of death
I feel like this would be frowned upon
 
10:06 PM
@crasic It's generally viewed as pissing on the unfortunate.
 
I know its pretty 'murrican, but fuck you for touching my car
 
@crasic Not all churches do. In fact, in Europe I think the churches that cling to this "brand" of religion seem to be diminishing the fastest
@crasic Who touched your car?
 
@Aberrant why do you hate C#?
 
@sehe Just my personal taste I guess. I just like java's strictness a lot more
 
@Aberrant why?
 
10:07 PM
I think cars are p/much the Holy Cow of western Europe to date
 
@Aberrant strictness? Can you elaborate?
 
3 mins ago, by crasic
I don't understand what kind of person thinks it is acceptable to walk down a street and leave a bible verse on every single car
 
@sehe well you do need to pay a lot to even begin developing in C# (because you will be probably using VS)
 
@BartekBanachewicz More verbosity, fewer features, rigid library structure.
 
@Bartek no I don't think I can :'3
 
10:08 PM
@Scis lolwut. I use vim. On linux. If you insist, add OmniSharp. If you really insist add monodevelop (for interactive debugging?). If you still insist (and are masochist), go ahead, do Visual Studio Express on your windows machine
 
@Scis MS provides free versions....
 
@Aberrant you haven't written much in C#, have you?
@Scis lol wot.
 
It's just, allll the little things, I get annoyed with C# a lot
 
what little things?
 
Where can I get free VS13 Ultimate ?
 
10:08 PM
do you mean language, its ecosystem, IDEs?
 
@Scis usenet
 
@Scis Ultimate is not free. Express (and so C# compiler) is.
 
@Scis Torrent?
 
C# is a better language than Java
 
I've written C# a lot for school projects for about 2 years, I'm in no way an expert on any language
 
10:09 PM
@Chimera lol
 
C# compiler is part of .NET, you don't need VS at all
 
@Aberrant I think most people would hate the language they are forced to write school projects in
 
@crasic ah. missed that earlier
 
@crasic hahaha good point
 
@CatPlusPlus yeah, it was funny when we found that out in High School
 
10:09 PM
We wrote an POSIX OS in java for school and Ihaven't touched it since
 
I want one with a license
 
@Scis Express also has a license.
 
C#'s Concurrency Classes are actually incredibly good.
 
You don't need Ultimate
 
10:10 PM
@Scis I don't even
 
swift seems fun
 
@BartekBanachewicz duh?
 
"I'm in no way an expert on any language"
except html because html is easymode
 
Xeo
Ultimate isn't free, as was said (unless you're a student with access to MSDNAA)
 
@Scis MSDNAA has it for free
you need institution affiliation though
 
10:10 PM
@Scis What? Express has a license available for free -.-
@crasic I was forced to write in Ada and Prolog and liked both.
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah I know I was not talking about express
 
when I was in university we could get any MS software going back to MSDOS5 for free
 
@Scis I don't think you have any idea on what you're talking about.
 
@AlexM. yeah, with all the attractiveness of Visual Logo or Turtle Graphics, right there :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz why is that?
 
10:11 PM
*easymode to learn
impossible to just use on its own for anything serious
 
4 mins ago, by Scis
@sehe well you do need to pay a lot to even begin developing in C# (because you will be probably using VS)
 
Don't you know you absolutely need VS Ultimate to write C#?????????????????????
 
You can use Mono.... it's free.. and not use Visual Studio...
 
I have an Ultimate so yeah w/e.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I was talking about the ultimate version...
 
10:12 PM
@Scis good idea! When arguing, try to avoid talking about relevant stuff! This will make the argument more colorful
 
You have 3 options
 
@Scis and is ultimate required to code in C#? Is it relevant?
 
@Scis why.
 
Everything is awesome!
 
hint: fucking no.
 
10:12 PM
1. Pay 2. Have someone else pay 3. pirate
 
4. fuck that and use Express/mono
 
4. pay for someone else to pirate it
 
@sehe TFS integration etc...
 
5. pay for someone who sells you a pirated copy of Express ;)
 
@Scis and TFS integration is required to code in C#, right?
 
10:13 PM
Fuck TFS... what a fucking pain in the ass to use.
 
lol what planet are you from.
 
@sehe Russia in the 90's early 00's was a haven for "official" piracy
 
6. become a student at the right school to get ultimate student edition for free
 
@Scis lol. I love the ellipses... They lend so much depth... to you points...
Even Microsoft clearly favours git these days
 
Street vendors with tables of professionally mastered cd's with any software/movie/game you want
 
10:14 PM
but you may as well pirate cause both ways are illegal for commercial use~
 
@sehe dogfooding has its limits
 
@crasic astalavista, crack.ru etc
 
I was just trying to make the point that some features are Ultimate only, while there are a lot of completely free alternatives for Java
 
@sehe Yes, this is online, I'm talking something like this
 
@Scis Which ones.
 
10:16 PM
@Scis Ahahah who the fuck cares about TFS
 
Oh here's one of those little things: MSDN is terrible compared to java documentation
 
@Scis Right. If you mean "Maven" quality stuff, these have all been replicated (several times over) in the .NET world. And are questionable anyways
 
You. Do. Not. Need. Ultimate
 
Would be nice if Java would come with a decent proper GUI framework that doesn't suck.
 
Maybe Pro if you have a team that does a lot of C#
But Ultimate is really not necessary for anything
 
10:17 PM
@Chimera Swing is prolly "ok" (compared to WinForms). However, WPF blows it away
 
@Chimera imposible.
 
Also good Java IDEs are expensive, too
So your argument is shit anyway
 
@CatPlusPlus Eclipse shots fired
 
No argument, for the love of god where did I say I prefer Java?
 
I'm going to regret asking this but
 
10:18 PM
@sehe I've used SWT... it's quite nice.. but I've read that it's not really portable or doesn't work well on all platforms.
 
What's wrong with Eclipse?
 
Eclipse is not a good IDE
For Java or otherwise
 
@CatPlusPlus yay something we agree on...
 
@Aberrant Just slow, really
 
Is Eclipse stable yet?
 
10:19 PM
(You don't need an expensive IDE to write Java either, so the goddamn VS Ultimate is not relevant one way or another)
@Chimera No
 
@Aberrant semi-fair point. However, .NET BCL design is way > JDK mishaps + organic growth. (BCL has it's own warts, but is far less dense)
And serializing an object graph into a 1Mb XML files doesn't take ~7 fucking seconds on .NET, like Java somehow manages on my i7 Quadcore with 32 MiB of RAM)
 
@CatPlusPlus Didn't think so. Yet so many SoC vendors provides BSP's that rely on Eclipse.
 
@Chimera Oh, I just spent ~2 months tweaking a GUI redesign across windows/linux/mac OS in Java 1.6+ with swing.
 
Fuck Eclipse
 
Mind, I am very annoyed with how Eclipse is handling C++ settings thus far but it didn't bother me for Java at all.
 
10:20 PM
I like eclipse (for java)
 
@sehe Yeah, sounds like phun.
 
CODE::BLOCKS
 
@Chimera A lot of pixel battling
 
This really isn't useful for solving programming competition problems, which is the only context in which the original question makes sense. — Carl 2 mins ago
eh
people not getting SO on a daily basis.
 
~competitions~
 
10:21 PM
@sehe I can only imagine.
 
@Aberrant everything.
@CatPlusPlus (of course OP didn't mention that)
 
Doesn't QT have java bindings ?
 
Jambi
 
I can make a window with a single function across all platforms, it may be ugly, but its easy
 
10:23 PM
qt-jambi.org
 
or rather, single class instance
 
a singleton
woo.
 
That word always confused me
 
Feb 16 '13 at 21:35, by sehe
Gah. I'm going to shock you all. I just donated to the Eclipse project.
 
10:24 PM
because I've spent extensive time studying singletons in an abstract math concept
 
@crasic why? it's rather simple
 
I'm like that. I'm not afraid to show my appreciation. I really like the fact that Eclipse still allows me to hit the ground running and be productive.
 
@crasic "a type that has one value"
@sehe should've said "Lilypond" upfront
but then it wouldn't be shocking, I guess
 
I don't like when people describe 'factory methods' as 'singletons', because that's not the same thing, the former is actually reasonable
 
@sehe Good point.
 
10:26 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I don't think I ever donated to lilypond. And no, I don't think that was in the context of the Lilypond IDE. I never got used to it. I adopted Frescobaldi since (and more of Vim, obviously)
 
@BartekBanachewicz the concept makes sense, just the word
 
Apr 29 at 10:39, by sehe
I liked the fact that my first thing was Apple-T to summon a terminal, and I was soon flying with wget to get eclipse, and running that etc.
 
Its one of those things, where it sounds and looks odd to you
 
@sehe Boooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 
It's pretty awesome if a full featured IDE JustWorks(TM) across platforms without any reconfig and immediately affords remote, cross-process debugging, refactoring, team integration etc. etc.
 
10:27 PM
I have a vastly different definition of 'just works' apparently
 
IMO eclipse > visual studio in many - if not all - respects.
The only thing that makes VS come close (and clearly surpass) it for C# is ReSharper
 
VS doesn't forget how to render text
 
@CatPlusPlus I can only assume you guys don't use it for Java.
 
I only ever used it for Java
 
10:29 PM
There's a reason why Android project said fuck Eclipse and went with IntelliJ as official IDE
 
@CatPlusPlus Actually, VS does mess up text rendering, while Eclipse (by default) might be ugly, but never fails me
 
This is what all graphic IDE's remind me of
 
@CatPlusPlus Oh, I bet IntelliJ is coolness too.
 
@sehe I have nightmares about eclipse...
 
The only text rendering bug I've seen in VS is weird line heights
 
10:29 PM
@Mgetz What for?
 
Eclipse straight up renders wrong lines in wrong places
 
@sehe explain... and screenshots
 
It's shit and it needs to die
 
@sehe I unfortunately use it for working with salesforce apex
 
@Mgetz I think I might have posted them here. Trying to remember when it "struck". I think it was in the days of VS2010 on WinXP. Something with the screen not updating at all anymore... Mmm.
 
dyp
10:31 PM
Hi -- I have a question about closing this as a dup. Do you think that's appropriate? Neither do I really like my superpowers, nor is it an exact duplicate, but the answer would essentially be the same.
 
Guys, guys, guys
 
Feb 16 '13 at 21:37, by sehe
You know, I keep using Eclipse. Have done on and off since 2004 or even before. And I keep liking it. Now, it turns out they host a new 'IDE' for Lilypond in it, and I thought I might just as well show my appreciation for once.
 
we are forgeting one thing
XCode > *
 
@Mgetz Ah, well, the zillion subprojects/derivates can't all be top notch. But just JDT + Vrapper + EGit ticks my boxes
 
10:31 PM
@crasic you pressed the wrong <
 
@sehe ah that, I ran into that before on win7. VS2013 doesn't seem to have that issue.
 
XCode is an element of a singleton
 
XCode IMHNVIO is just bleh... sublime text is better
 
@BartekBanachewicz Okay! That was the prompter, indeed. Anyways, the appreciation was broader. Also, it is kinda awesome how the Eclipse framework accomodates so many relatively powerful tools
 
it is kinda awesome how many of them are fucking annoying because they use that framework.
 
10:33 PM
@Mgetz Indeed. But they still have the other bugs from VS2003 :)
 
altough I do agree that it helped a lot of projects.
 
@sehe that's the biggest issue with eclipse for me, it's trying to be all things to all people and failing miserably
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh well. I value the productivity. I agree it's kinda ugly most of the time
@Mgetz Just ignore that part. Works for me
 
@Mgetz that's actually how I feel about Visual Studio kinda x3
 
@Aberrant I understand the feeling but I feel like VS is a bit more focused in each environment.
 
10:36 PM
I like that keyboard control in VS is more complete and consistent. Especially with R# and VsVim
However, Vrapper in Eclipse supports Surround.vim and some other plugins, which is kinda neat in its own respect.
 
there is definitely no perfect editor, intellisense is awesome when it works
 
So I used to be pretty good at C++, but I haven't coded in it for ~4 years (been doing Java & Python). I have a job interview test in a few days. Any suggestions on exercises to re-learn the details of C++?
 
And nothing replaces my standard Vim + Pathogen + { fugitive, repeat, surround, unimpaired } setup, which is also completely cross platform (much to my delight when it "JustWorked" for me on Mac)
 
ReSharper is nice at times...
 
You really have no clue
 
10:38 PM
@sehe that's what I use on linux along with you complete me for some sort of intellisense
@user939259 you're going to need more than a few days...
 
@user939259 Well, there were two new Standards and everything changed, so good luck with that.
 
praised be my laziness, I write so many automation scripts it's not even true :')
 
@sehe referring to ?
 
@Mgetz YCM started to appeal to me over the last few months. Dunno what put me off when I tried it earlier, but indeed it makes me very productive for C++ work
 
I just to re-up my skills on basic C++, not 11
 
10:40 PM
@Scis Your assessment about R#. VS without it is really lame.
 
there's no distinction.
 
@sehe it's a form of interactive programming when you think about it, do get a semi-realtime feedback on if that TU has syntax issues.
 
@Mgetz I guess what won me over is that I got used to the "fuzzy" matching (sometimes still irks me, but it's ... better than completion in Eclipse, so there's that)
 
So the C# compiler implements async using a magic transformation of the code to a FSM. OptiX by NVIDIA does about the same but with ASM transformations. Would it be possible to implement the same in a setting where there is no access to the AST nor ASM?
Also, hello.
 
inline namespace v1 { } // this line seems like a no-op
 
10:41 PM
@Mgetz Yeah, modulo compiler differences but generally, quite unintrusive
 
@user939259 Companies that do C++11 are very rare anyway
 
@sehe I don't do much C# nowadays, so I might not be aware of all the perks :) I just remember it's good
 
@user939259 C++11 contains a lot of syntactic sugar and some nice extensions but to be honest you really need to know about the basics of using boost and the standard library as well as RAII
 
@WilliamAndrewMontgomery Hellooooo. Chimera is here. Maybe we should plink Drise as well.
 
hell, it also helped me find out I can add hotkeys for stuff that's not added by default in GIMP
next step: macros
 
10:42 PM
@sehe What is this, zombie uprising?
 
Apparently
 
Yeah I've used boost a lot, as well as RAII, etc. I used to be a full-time C++ coder for nearly a decade. It's just that I haven't written in it for a few years and I want to make sure I don't get tripped up on template syntax or something like that
 
@sehe Where's Domagoj~
 
I guess I'm looking for something like Project Euler, but more for re-learning the intricacies of the language
 
Also, I saw Xeo and thecoshman on cam :3
Will send nude pics for money
 
10:44 PM
@user939259 Basic C++ is C++11.
5
 
@BartekBanachewicz You're fooling yourself
 
@WilliamAndrewMontgomery no AST? uh-oh.
 
in Java, Feb 8 '13 at 23:09, by sehe
Neutral to defensive of Java:

http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10?m=3768210#3768210
http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10?m=6707614#6707614
http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/3560575#3560575
http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10?m=3059494#3059494
http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/2755718#2755718
http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10?m=3620854#3620854
http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10?m=7259622#7259622
http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10?m=2301336#2301336
 
@WilliamAndrewMontgomery I'm not, also you have nude pics of Xeo's face.
 
@WilliamAndrewMontgomery he came by on the main site, but didn't feel welcome, as I remember.
 
10:45 PM
I don't think they will sell for much.
 
@sehe Here or on the main site?
@BartekBanachewicz Well, I have AST through clang, but I can't transform it (immutable by design)
 
@WilliamAndrewMontgomery here
 
@WilliamAndrewMontgomery immutability is a feature, not a bug.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I didn't say it was a bug. I said it was blocking for my purposes, that's all. Therefore I'm looking for other ways.
@sehe Aw :( he was a nice guy
 
And a poet.
 
10:48 PM
@WilliamAndrewMontgomery Transform the AST to a mutable form of yours?
 
I haven't spoken to him. Lemme see who reported this
 
@BartekBanachewicz And then transform it back to clang's? :3
 
May 26 at 22:36, by Jefffrey
Feb 27 '13 at 22:54, by Domagoj Pandža
Hey, everyone. I've been away for a long time. Suffice it to say, I've lost someone a couple of months back and didn't see the sense of remaining around... Well, anywhere. After a few months, I returned to SO every once in a while, lurk the DX questions but didn't feel welcome here, so I simply stayed away.
 
@ThePhD Stepanov and Lee?
 
10:49 PM
Recalibrate troll detectors
 
@WilliamAndrewMontgomery doesn't sound very hard. Turnip's (Lua) AST took me an hour to understand and start fixing bugs in it.
 
@sehe Doesn't look like he's referring specifically to the Lounge (if my understanding is correct)
 
after all, you just want to make some changes, right.
not generate the whole thing.
 
@BartekBanachewicz We're talking about the AST of c++, not lua and its two or three features.
 
@WilliamAndrewMontgomery "but didn't feel welcome here", in a chat message, implies here=lounge to me
 
10:50 PM
Yeah I want to turn a piece of code into some FSM and have clang generate the corresponding binary
 
Coolness
 
@WilliamAndrewMontgomery then it will probably take more time. Still.
 
@sehe Yeah, possibly :(
 
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4172722/what-is-the-rule-of-three
Second answer with 13 upvotes seem wrong when he starts talking about shallow copy.....
//Shallow copy example
//Assume we're in C++ because it's standard behavior is to shallow copy objects if you do not have a constructor written for an operation.
//Now let's assume I do not have any code for the assignment or copy operations like I do above...with those now gone, C++ will use the default.

Car car1 = new Car("ford", "mustang", "red");
Car car2 = car1;
car2.changePaint("green");//car1 is also now green
delete car2;/*I get rid of my car which is also really your car...I told C++ to resolve
doesn't seem correct
 
> //It's pseudocode C++/Javaish, I assume strings do not need to be allocated.
 
10:53 PM
@Chimera Car = Car*
 
^
 
I'm going to cook tea
So I can stay awake tonight and FINISH THIS $*^*^$ REPORT
It shall be Ceylon tea because I'm refined and classy
 
Ok.. so in C++ Car car2 = car1; would create two completely separate objects occupying different memory locations correct?
 
The question was tagged C++. This pseudo-code exposition does little to clarify anything about the well-defined "Rule Of Three" at best, and just spreads confusion at worst. — sehe 22 secs ago
 
90's OVERLOAD
 
10:56 PM
Downvoted
 
Oh boy the zombies are back indeed
 
@sehe ok.. because I was under the impression that in C++ "=" called the copy constructor...
 
copy assignment
 
which make a copy... ??
not a reference...
 
and an assignment
 
10:58 PM
@Chimera = is just a symbol. It can be indicate either copy construction or copy assignment, depending on the context. :)
 
Car car2 = car1; // copy and assign correct?
 
Or anything if you redefine operator=
 
foo f = make_foo() will copy-construct f. foo f; f = make_foo will copy-assign
 
@Chimera no, copy initialization.
 

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