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user1804599
7:00 PM
Which would be almost empty, and l’effort.
 
The only way to layouting I know is to use box layouts which are an experimental feature.
 
user1804599
IT isn’t even 500 years old. Everything is experimental.
 
@StackedCrooked it seems to work on Opera
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
Clicking beneath the green box doesn’t work.
 
7:02 PM
All my layouting is based on this.
 
user1804599
I once made a flexbox-based grid system in nine lines of Sass code.
 
user1804599
And it works better than any grid system I’ve ever used.
 
Yay people aren't hating my question
always nice
 
user1804599
And it doesn’t pollute the HTML code with classes that really shouldn’t be there.
 
@rightfold with box-layout you can get pretty far
but I have ton of nested diffs
 
7:05 PM
@Mysticial ok, hooked
 
user1804599
You basically use it like this: gist.github.com/rightfold/e9bb55e057ad9b8b5b8d.
 
user1804599
Look mah, clean semantic HTML!
 
@sehe ?
 
I'm now going to have to watch that :/
First a minidump, then a coffee, close backyard doors and unpause
 
Oh. aha
 
user1804599
7:06 PM
You can also have as many columns as you want (and it can be different per row), and it automatically calculates how wide they should be.
 
user1804599
So you don’t have to worry about adding up to 12 or something. You just specify ratios.
 
I wish I could use XUL.
 
user1804599
Write a XUL library in JavaScript.
 
@rightfold The only ratios I ever need are 0 and 1.
 
@sehe It's good stuff. He talks about problems that I've always been able to completely bypass. But as a compiler writer, he needs to deal with them directly.
 
user1804599
7:08 PM
@StackedCrooked I wonder what happens when you create a column with width of 0, lol.
 
I mean flex=0 and flex=1.
flex=0 means occupy width required by contents but don't grow
 
user1804599
The flex basis is $gap * ($width - 1) * 2.
 
user1804599
So it would be $gap * -2 in that case.
 
user1804599
@mixin fl-row
    display: flex

@mixin fl-col($width, $gap)
    flex-basis: $gap * ($width - 1) * 2
    flex-grow: $width

    &:not(:first-child)
        margin-left: $gap

    &:not(:last-child)
        margin-right: $gap
 
Bjarne is always super wise. His words are just calm and inspiring.
 
7:11 PM
Any one know Objective-C here?
 
Yeah, but he gets a little defensive I think.
 
He does?
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked Of course he does. He’s not an Erlang programmer.
 
@Jefffrey my impression
He shows no interest in other languages at all.
But it's the other languages that have inspired many of C++11's new features.
 
ah, they don't have what C++ and Wide both have, which is compatibility.
 
7:12 PM
@StackedCrooked Yeah, so it seems. I agree.
 
@DeadMG How does c++ have "compatibility"?
 
user1804599
Whenever somebody talks about defensive programming I see it as something that is bad. Not sure.
 
@rubenvb Source compatibility with C.
 
user1804599
Probably because if it weren’t then people wouldn’t talk about it.
 
@DeadMG Pretty much every language on earth can call C code.
 
7:13 PM
@Mysticial yeah, he failed to surprise me with his introductory "paradoxes" (I know at /that/ level you always need to take into account the complete micro-arch of the CPU) but I want to know more about the new stuff (FMA's, e.g.) so I'm gun' watch this to just update my background knowledge
 
@rubenvb That's quite some way from just including the header.
 
In his recent talk he said he wants to get code transformation into the language. Not really sure what that means.. (Is it like transforming tuple<vector<a, b>> into vector<tuple<a,b>> ?)
 
user1804599
Or because you defend something only if there is chance of danger, and danger is bad.
 
@DeadMG often it's just call cfunction blabla
Which is pretty much the same.
 
not really.
for example, when you P/Invoke, there's no protection against using the wrong signature.
or the wrong name.
and good luck getting macro values.
 
7:14 PM
@rubenvb Not nearly the same.
 
and exporting C-compatible functions is another matter.
 
Well, ok.
 
or incremental upgrading from existing C codebases.
 
You can generate bindings from headers
SWIG had that for years
 
I give you the macros and function checking. But there is what Cat says. Which invalidates that.
 
7:15 PM
@sehe The store-forwarding stuff in the second half of the lecture kinda blew me away. I know what it is, and (usually) manage to avoid it. But I never knew how far reaching it can be if you can't avoid it.
 
So no, you don't have a convincing case.
 
@StackedCrooked likely meta-programming on the ast level (like Boo and Lisp derivatives)
 
@sehe That seems interesting.
 
user1804599
Beh, AST fiddling.
 
I doubt that SWIG has had it for as many years as C++ had source compatibility.
besides, it's really the incremental upgrade thing that counts, IYAM.
 
7:16 PM
@rightfold it's a lot more to-the-point than enable_if and traiting all the time
 
in C++ you can take a C codebase and upgrade it practically one arbitrary line at a time.
 
user1804599
lol, C++
 
@DeadMG Then you get terrible C++.
 
@DeadMG it does. SWIG++
 
eh
 
7:16 PM
And that's a terrible thing anyways.
 
@sehe SWIG's own history page starts in 1995. That's long after C++ had source compatibility.
@rubenvb Well, probably. But it works, and it's better than C, and you can make a choice as to what investment to make.
 
@DeadMG C/C++ is not better than C.
 
@DeadMG compatibility with what now? I think I lost you
 
wtf is C/C++
 
2 mins ago, by DeadMG
in C++ you can take a C codebase and upgrade it practically one arbitrary line at a time.
 
7:18 PM
It's 1.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit it's 1 with the sideeffect of incrementing C
 
What is 'memoized' cache vs normal cache?
 
:17094499 :D
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol you are a retard
 
7:19 PM
@StackedCrooked i know :(
 
@Crow not a lot. memoized just means the function arguments are the cache keys
Also, most memoizing doesn't come with expiration/eviction AFAICT
 
@sehe Well, Bjarne believes that compatibility is key for a new language, and it's hard to argue that C++ did not have maximal compatibility with C.
 
@Crow memoized is cache which is lazily generated the first time a function is called
 
user1804599
A memoized cache is a cached cache.
 
7:21 PM
or function name combined with arguments is really what triggers it
 
user1804599
Like, caching the cache for extra cache caching performance.
 
> Macros are just poison.
 
haha suck it markdown
&dummy.jpg
 
Wow, bjarne.
 
Alright, now for the shocking conclusion, provided anyone cares, it turns out I was mixing up the meanings of static and inline between class and global scope. [insert short abrupt crowd cheer then everyone just walking off]
 
7:22 PM
I've never thought you were that against macros.
 
@sehe that is very useful, so I can just take my_func.__name__ and look it up in the cache somehow? If it's in there, it's cached?
 
insert it yourself
 
@Aberrant Even though we explained them?
BTW inline has only one meaning regardless of scope
(AFAIK?)
 
@Lightness sorry, I just missed that aspect of your explanations, I guess
 
@Crow usually it's transparent. You just call foo(param) and second time it returns it quicker
 
7:22 PM
inline namespace?
 
wtf is inline namespace
OMG
 
(or you say foo = memoize(foo) to have this happen in a functional language)
 
@sehe if this is on a web server, will the request still hit the endpoint which executes the function?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit living under the rock
2
@Crow depends who implements the memoization pattern where
 
user1804599
7:24 PM
def memoize(f):
    cache = {}
    @functools.wraps(f)
    def wrapped(*args, **kwargs):
        if (args, kwargs) not in cache:
            cache[(args, kwargs)] = f(*args, **kwargs)
        return cache[(args, kwargs)]
 
user1804599
If only Python lists and dicts were hashable (they aren’t but whyyyyyyyyyyyy).
 
:17094628
well that didn't work :D
 
I'm using flask-cache... I want to check if my function was cached after a few calls
 
@Crow just test it?
 
I'm going there but it doesn't look like it's going any faster, but it was before... I need a unit test
 
user1804599
7:26 PM
How can you have non-test code without a test?
 
cause I have no clue how I'm supposed to test cache
 
"I just missed that aspect of your explanations, I guess"
I did mention I was probably thinking about this fundamentally the wrong way. : )
 
FYI: groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/… - lack of support for capturing variables by const reference
 
@rightfold go back under your rock :)
@Crow hint: if it's in your application framework, likely it's not going to be a unit test
 
integration test, I suppose? I dunno. I just want something to confirm that I'm not messing everything up
 
7:29 PM
@Crow oh you will. remember the two hard things in software dev: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors.
 
user1804599
Don’t test your code if you don’t want to know whether it works.
 
user1804599
If you want to verify something, write a test for it.
 
but how would this even be tested? If I am seeing it correctly there must exist somewhere a table to look up what is cached and what isn't
 
@Crow Obviously.
That's how caching works usually. Some table or hash map or whatever
 
@Crow there is, memoize is by definition in memory, I think. Just count the number of calls you backend receives after you trigger say 100 identical requests?
 
7:32 PM
I mean, I'm using flask-cache. So must the cache table exist somewhere within that object? I don't see anything in the dir(cache) that seems to say it
 
This question appears to be off-topic because it is about reading documentation. — Lightness Races in Orbit 44 secs ago
 
user1804599
You cannot memoize without memory.
 
user1804599
It’s practically in the definition of memoization.
 
guys
stop with the typos already
it's getting annoing.
 
@Crow encapsulation?
 
7:34 PM
:o)
 
@rubenvb annoization?
 
@sehe what do you mean?
 
@Crow meaning: don't look for implementation details on the outside
 
Well, I put a print statement in there and it doesn't print after the first time... so does that mean it's working? My @before_request though is saying there is a url, so do they still make a request?
127.0.0.1 - - [11/Jun/2014 15:38:41] "GET /stat/ HTTP/1.1" 200
is this route cached?
127.0.0.1 - - [11/Jun/2014 15:38:49] "GET /stat/ HTTP/1.1" 200 -
127.0.0.1 - - [11/Jun/2014 15:38:52] "GET /stat/ HTTP/1.1" 200 -
127.0.0.1 - - [11/Jun/2014 15:38:53] "GET /stat/ HTTP/1.1" 200 -
 
user1804599
7:40 PM
@Crow Yes, now it’s cached.
 
user1804599
It calls the request handler only once.
 
user1804599
Then remembers the result.
 
user1804599
Now your website is harder, better, faster and stronger.
 
so smaert now
 
user1804599
7:43 PM
@Crow It is a hidden implementation detail that you don’t need to know anything about.
 
user1804599
You only care about the high-level API that provides access to it indirectly.
 
user1804599
Indirection is key to goodness (except when talking to customers).
 
yeah that's why I searched the dir, to see if they had some handler to see what is held in the cache. I'm pretty sure it's a fairly simplistic key/value store
 
I need to edit 128 more posts to get another gold badge
sheesh
 
user1804599
@Crow It can be implemented somewhere else.
 
7:44 PM
And 418 helpful flags
 
user1804599
Such as the solution I showed before.
 
user1804599
My memoize function can be used as a decorator.
 
user1804599
(If it returned wrapped, lol.)
 
it's not good to memoize a rand function
$ Cache.sh eval 'echo $RANDOM'
8942
$ Cache.sh eval 'echo $RANDOM'
8942
$ Cache.sh eval 'echo $RANDOM'
8942
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked You rarely want to memoize impure functions.
 
7:46 PM
you might want to memoize certain wgets
 
user1804599
Impure functions depend on inputs (including globals) that are not handled by the memoization machinery.
 
@StackedCrooked I'm caching it because there are (in 90% of cases) no arguments, and because the data is static and only fetched once every few hours. Seems kinda silly to recalculate it every time
 
@Crow that's good
 
So I just explicitly empty the cache when a new batch of data comes in
 
user1804599
With flask-cache you can set a cache timeout.
 
7:48 PM
yeah but I can't find a good way to set it to a time of the day... data is fetched at 5:00 AM. Unless I just took the time the request was dispatched and update it with the time until 5AM, but I'm not sure that'd work...
 
user1804599
Ah, I see.
 
user1804599
Then I’d just tell it to clear the cache at that point.
 
8:01 PM
for you
with complements
 
@StackedCrooked such random. wow
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I want something strong
 
template<typename T>
void foo(T*&& t) {
    bar(std::forward<T>(*t)); // does this look right?
}
 
user3010322
Just T*
 
user3010322
no point doing T*&&
 
8:03 PM
right
 
I actually found out why it was going slower than expected with cache, I changed the before_request from the last commit
 
Facebook API pisses me off
 
@Mysticial teehee:
 
Graph search is semi implemented
their entire search function is useless
 
They must have stolen it from twitter
 
8:05 PM
I can't even search my messages or posts for a relevant keyword
 
Hehe that was a funny one
 
I was looking to get a friend a gift and remembered they made a post about something over ayear ago, instead of just letting me fucking search I had to manually scroll through all their posts from the last 12 months
 
user1804599
Q/A ratio 335/1 lol.
 
@rightfold who
 
8:07 PM
Hmm, I should root my Xperia.
then I can install some permission firewall thingie.
 
user1804599
@user3580294: We're not here to "help" people. It's a Questions & Answer site, we answer good questions. — MSalters 35 secs ago
 
user1804599
Wunderbar.
 
user1804599
i am not sattisfied ,i feel i need more guidance — user3690061 7 secs ago
 
user1804599
This guy is lol.
 
LOL
@rightfold I don't want to become like him when I go 40
 
8:11 PM
Maybe I should ask a Swift question. They seem hot these days.
 
@rightfold but isn't answering good questions helping people?
 
user1804599
Ask MSalters.
 
CBA
too lazy
:effort:
 
~effort~
 
user1804599
l’effort
 
8:13 PM
@crasic [[End][F3]...]
 
user1804599
crasic computel science ploblem
 
does the memoization have any timeout by default, or just some kind of stack tracing the x most recent accesses?
 
user1804599
Stack tracing wat.
 
as in, my site has say 20 urls. If the memoization has some kind of 'size limit', let's say 10, it would just hold the 10 most recent urls visited and kick out the other ones
 
@sehe On a mac keyboard this requires pressing 4 keys at once lol
 
8:21 PM
hmm
 
@crasic not at all, and don't use a Mac
 
end is [fn-right]
f3 is [command-f3]
@sehe Employer provided laptop
 
@crasic why is F3 not just F3?
 
@rubenvb because default for function keys is to do stuff like raise/lower volume and brightness/etc
 
macs are the best though. It's just linux with better defaults
 
8:23 PM
shouldn't F3 be fn+F3?
 
@Crow Their hardware is alright, most of the time I'm working remotely
@Aberrant I honestly don't even know anymore
@Crow That would be Ubununununutu
 
@crasic hmm ok.
 
user1804599
You rarely need function keys, so it’s better to have them being used for something else.
 
user1804599
You can invert the fn key in the settings if you want.
 
@rightfold you can invert in settings this is true
 
8:25 PM
Ubuntu is pretty good, I always just thought the ui wasn't too sleek. Solid functionality though
 
I'm using win7 on a macbook (long story) but I've set it so the F keys just act like F keys with bootcamp~
 
but I was trying sehe's suggestion and it required me to either change system settings or play twister with my hands
 
hand twister!
 
I still need to press fn+shift+F11 for a screenshot though. also +alt if I want the current window.
 
@Crow Its surprisingly solid, most of the issues people have are either not related to ubuntu (dual boot issues caused by window's terrible EFI support) or new hardware configs
also people really shouldn't be using 14.04 until the first point release
 
user1804599
8:26 PM
ANDREI FACEBOOK IS BROKEN FIX IT
 
they are basically beta-testing
 
I thought you said it was solid.
 
user1804599
Too many speech tweets earlier today? #lessonlearned #transparency
 
user1804599
> #transparency
 
I couldn't get it installed on my vm :\
 
8:27 PM
12.04 is pretty solid, although it is rapidly becoming as out of date as debian stale
 
@crasic you need to reconfigure the system keyboard settings :)
 
Requires a lot of ppa/unsupported packages
 
@Aberrant yes, IME
hahahaha
You really have about 0.8 clues there
 
buh? What'd I do?
 
@crasic So you mean that being solid in Ubuntu is something obsolete?
 
8:30 PM
@crasic I know for a fact that that's easy to fix, and easy to find (just [Apple]-, and find the keyboard settings. I know, because I switched it on day two of developing on a mac for the first time in my life. About a month or two ago
Apr 29 at 10:39, by sehe
It's mostly okay, of course. Only... Screenshot? Shift-Apple-4 ?!?!?!?!
Apr 29 at 10:37, by sehe
Apple-, for "settings" just makes so much sense. Dismissing a window is alway as easy as pressing Apple-W. Apple-Q. Or, escape, actually. And sometimes nothing works (because you need to press the Cancel button)
I'm so proud I just remembered [Shift-Apple-4] yesterday when I needed it (and swiftly installed Jing of course)
 
shift-apple-4 is pretty nice though
 
Yeah. Uber-user-friendly. Makes total sense.
 
not using command-control-shift-3? What are you doing?
 
I use it for taking development notes all the time
 
@sehe :)
 
8:34 PM
I have same function bount to ctrl-alt-p on my linux systems
 
Of course, Finder's search wouldn't "find" "screenshot" or screen capture" or whatever
 
lol yeah, requires looking up apple support
 
@crasic I have a 6 line script doing the same, that sends it to imgur
 
nayce
 
And that was leveraging the total Gimp to do the edit.
 
8:35 PM
does it save the imgur address to clipboard automatically
because that would be super sweet
 
(I fail at edits)
 
@sehe It is user-friendly if only use the user-friendly functionality. It makes total sense if you... think about it or something. Or if you pretend it does. I don't remember what is the usual fanboy excuse for that.
 
So nice, thanks
 
> "Blah Blah Blah" is a string literal. It's not the same as a std::string object. In C++14, there’s also “Blah blah blah”s, which creates a std::string object from a string literal.
 
why doth thou torment me so, flask logger?
 
8:38 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, welcome to linux. I don't really have an issue with it though, everything is stable and then I upgrade whatever I need if I need bleeding edge
 
@Crow I think it might be dost
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think in these cases the real fanboys would argue that the feature isn't something you should want to use
 
^ that. The fanboys would say "It's all a piece of cake with [paid] app XXX"
 
Bleeding edge with precompiled packages is a crapshoot, see : Arch
 
yarrrr.
I threw an exception from Wide and I caught it in C++.
who's ya fuckin' daddy.
 
8:40 PM
I'll add that it isn't really a linux issue, but the development cycle (read: there isn't one) for the majority of open projects
kernel+system libs are pretty solid no matter what you chose
 
@DeadMG [insert short abrupt crowd cheer then everyone just walking off]
(sorrycouldntresist)
 
I posted this question in stack overflow like an hour ago,but some said it's better to post it here so I did it. — swapedoc 52 secs ago
^^ lolfail
 
I'm heading back to OstKrap. Goodbye all...
 
Also that you as a project cannot guarantee what the system configuration is, unlike developing for mac/windows where you know all the shared system libraries and its "guaranteed" to be consistent
 
(killer joke)
 
user1804599
8:54 PM
@sehe eww, cancer duplicate code.
 
I think the sheer number of definitions for the word "run" tell you something about the ambiguity of the English language.
 
@rightfold What do you want? If the goal is to demonstrate copy/paste functionality (with media transformation/decoration) then, copy/paste is what you're supposed to get
 
@sehe what is dost?
 
user1804599
@TonyTheLion well, fuck.
 
user1804599
@Crow bijna dorst.
 
8:55 PM
dorst is the worst
 
user1804599
worst resulteert in dorst
 
worst is lekker
en als je dorst hebt moet je drinken.
thanks Captain Obvious
 
user1804599
Also, tough kletskoppen are not very good.
 
kletskoppen?
 
user1804599
 
8:56 PM
I have no idea why it's not writing to my logfile when an error occurs, but it does create the logfile...
 
@Griwes ah man. where do you find these and why do you keep bringing them to the lounge?
Literally 9 out of 10 of your links/oneboxes are absolutely cringeworthy to mildly yawnable
 
@Aberrant Hey, when I have EH support, I can think about bootstrapping, you know.
 
@rightfold yum yum knapperig
 
user1804599
Ja. :3
 
@rightfold da's een betere foto ja
 
user1804599
8:57 PM
"I was hacked" is this century's "a witch did it".
 
@DeadMG I should ask him, I guess. After all, I didn't make contact with him after ~30 years for nothing
@rightfold pretty insightful. Slight difference: hackers exist (even in the imagined forms, sometimes)
 
user1804599
Witches do too, and they’re Chancellors of Germany.
 

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