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9:00 PM
s/to/too
 
@Crow 2>&1 |tee logfile
 
@rightfold but they do nothing
 
There's a graveyard where a I used to live, that has people buried in it, that were burned at the stake because they were accused of being witches.
 
@DeadMG I don't actually really know what you're doing (specifically, I've never heard of Wide), but it sounds impressive. I just couldn't resist the perfect opportunity for reusing that phrase after your first response to it, is all.
 
@crasic |& tee -a logfile
 
user1804599
9:00 PM
@TonyTheLion Why would you live on a graveyard?
 
@rightfold read... again... please..
 
user1804599
It’s a place to be dead, not alive.
 
@rightfold well, it's pretty pointless to die there.
 
@sehe lol, I've never realized tee had an -a flag
 
I didn't say I lived on the graveyard, there just was one where I lived, in the area, vicinity, town kind of thing
 
9:02 PM
@crasic it was more about the |& (bash v6+ IIRC) thing, -a was a side note
 
user1804599
Speaking of graveyards.
 
user1804599
I should be a grave.
 
@sehe Its not entirely pointless, at least then you'll save everybody the trouble of having to carry your dead body to the graveyard, you're already there. :P
 
@sehe oh nvm I though -a read all streams, you still need to pipe stderr
 
user1804599
Speaking of me, I should talk to mom tomorrow.
 
9:03 PM
@sehe |& is necessary?
 
@TonyTheLion Oh. They should build really tall, uninhabited appartment buildings next to graveyards, just to make suicides and their wake more efficient
 
@Aberrant Nobody else was ballsy, or smart, or brave, or insane, or crazy, or all of the above, to build a new language that's compatible with C++
 
@crasic You can do 2>&1 | if you prefer
 
@sehe oh gawd
 
@TonyTheLion I watched this docu yesterday uitzendinggemist.nl/afleveringen/1399597
 
9:04 PM
@DeadMG Only you would be that crazy.
@sehe about suicide?
or graveyards?
 
@DeadMG I did notice you're creating Wide on your SO profile though
 
user1804599
About popsicles.
 
ah, its shorthand for piping stderr, thats cool, TIL
 
you did! I hate manual standard stream/fd redirections
 
Pretty typical, you find one way that works and stick with it, never looking further for simpler solutions until someone shows you something that works just as well
 
9:06 PM
Yup. One of the great benefits of SO for me
 
Or, more accurately, you cobble a command and then reverse-search to it every time and just change the input files
 
Sharpening The Saw
 
I learned how to wget post data the other day
 
I use curl for that. Easier (curl url -d 'data')
 
user1804599
@sehe Ik heb gelukkig hoogtevrees.
 
9:07 PM
Nou, gelukkig maar.
 
user1804599
Ik word al zenuwachtig als ik de vierde verdieping van een gebouw moet betreden.
 
@crasic buh? But this is for web application
 
I hate /being/ in high buildings for structural amounts of time. I don't mind being on high floors for a change.
 
You still have to cobble together all the data for the post request
 
But I really consider switching gigs when the office suddenly moves to the 16th floor. This happened twice in the past. And I really don't like it
 
9:09 PM
In this case I was downloading an SDK from a vendor, that required three data fields with long ass values
@Crow I was being obtuse
@sehe Too high or too low
 
... too high of course
I guess it comes down to odds + flight potential
 
user1804599
@sehe The closer you get to the wietplantage …
 
*pot plant
 
The same reason I don't take any long commutes unless I don't have to drive them. I mean, I don't feel okay being in traffic for hours on a daily basis. I feel like it's asking for trouble.
Which, essentially, it is
 
user1804599
I wouldn’t enter this glass floor for a hundred bucks.
 
9:12 PM
Yeah, but the risk of a deadly collision in rush hour is very low
mainly because everyone is so slow
 
user1804599
Also fuck Pagode.
 
I live in an earthquake area
so there is a non-zero possibility at any moment that the entire area will be a death trap
I'm just hedging that I will be out in the woods when that happens
Because our bridges and roads can handle a big earthquake
but if we are talking 9+
well, you can't engineer against that
strike-slip faults are a biiiitch
 
... as the seismologists tend to say
call me selfish, but I don't mind a deadly collision.
At least not as much as a non-deadly one :/
 
I've been in a few, although no injuries
one was very lucky, I spun out on ice on a mountain road and went into a ditch
 
(of course that's overstating things, but let's say "deadly collisions" being rare doesn't really soften the equation for me)
 
9:17 PM
Luckily snow bank made for a very soft landing
 
whoops. sounds fortunate indeed
 
Risk is indeed very subjective
 
Xeo
@Mysticial @StackedCrooked @ScarletAmaranth Glorious NGNL episode is Glorious.
 
In climbing you are often considering risk equations, fall potential, gear placement, etc.
 
Yup. I'm probably much too risk avoiding
 
9:19 PM
@Xeo great :D
 
@rightfold Why?
 
@crasic yet the single biggest factor in the equation is deciding to go climbing in the first place :)
 
user1804599
@EtiennedeMartel acrophobia.
 
user1804599
Apparently I’m also a barophobe, since I sometimes fear that gravity might cease to exist and I will float away.
 
@sehe yes, indeed, for many though this is a non-question. The subjective reward from the experience is too great
 
user1804599
9:20 PM
Although it’s very rare.
 
> Between 2 and 5 percent of the general population suffer from acrophobia, with twice as many women affected as men.
 
@rightfold I would feel very weird, and probably hold on to something, but I could enjoy it
 
Also, it is very difficult to explain to non-climbers, so I will try through analogy
 
user1804599
I would shake to death.
 
user1804599
Brrrrrrrrr.
 
9:21 PM
@crasic it goes both ways. For many, the decision to go is a non-question, as they will not.
 
@Xeo You suck.
 
Xeo
Watch eet.
 
the typical person does not consider walking to be a large risk, the potential for falling is obviously there but you are comfortable enough walking that you do not consider the risk of falling and hitting your head to be significant enough
 
For me, taking rides in entertainment parks (or, worse, on a fair) is pretty much "why would you" -> no option
 
@rightfold ... totally wouldn't be jumping next to you
 
user1804599
9:22 PM
The only place I enjoy that is very high is in a rollercoaster.
 
@sehe Because adrenaline and fear of death stimulates the dopamine system
 
user1804599
And I probably enjoy it because it’s scary as fuck.
 
which is the reason we do anything at all
 
@crasic True. I do teach my kids to never run with hands in pockets, not cross roads distracted, don't eat and play, etc.
 
user1804599
And the thought of yolo, I guess. I’m not afraid of death.
 
9:23 PM
@crasic Or not. There's the subjectiveness chasm
 
user1804599
Although being alive is fun, so why not?
 
Yes, so taking that, if you are comfortable on a rock as you are on your feet, then the risk of falling is not your concern
its about mitigating risk and knowing when falling is unnaceptable
 
^ that is truth
 
@sehe I disagree, this is a physiological fact
 
I could trust myself to do a lot of things, but I would take lots of (mental) preparation
 
9:24 PM
@sehe As you should, an uncautious climber is a soon-to-be-dead climber
I read accident reports religiously, they are actually very detailed
Especially ones that are investigated
Also, gear failure is so rare that when it happens it is a huge fucking deal
 
user1804599
Phobos: the fear of D.
 
it is funny how more or less everyone is find standing right on the edge of a kerb, but ask them to stand close to a cliff edge, and suddenly the ground is shaking for them
 
@crasic No. I do /not/ enjoy adrenaline rushes. Of course, dopamine drives me like the next person, but adrenaline really really turns me off. Probably more than you can imagine.
@crasic Hehe. /I/ do that, and I don't climb.
 
@sehe Your response to a particular stimuli is of course subjective, but there is still a large interaction with the dopamine system because the flight or fight response will override everything
 
@sehe there must be like a gene that for some people results in them enjoying adrenaline... maybe it's a learnt thing though.
 
9:27 PM
at the end of the day, you dislike it particularly because you are aware that you will most likely not die
and are not enjoying the experience
placed in a true life/death situation and your physiology kicks in much crazier
 
@crasic That's assuming the action is already taking place. Yet, the situations which you choose/avoid in the future, based on these experiences, are not simply governed by brain chemistry
 
@TonyTheLion Ah well, the difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success, you know.
brain is an electrical system as well as a chemical one, and their interactions are mighty complex
 
@crasic interesting hypothesis. Truth be told, I think my default strategies prevent me from even getting there loooong before the (perceived) threat can be felt.
 
@DeadMG I like to think of it as an electrical machine with electrical characteristics governed by chemical feedback loops
@sehe Yes this is very common, even in climbing
its a fear of death and not a fear of a particular activity, the fear of the death is rooted in very rational high level calculations rather than an immediate response to stimulus
 
Warning! Warning! Bullshit incoming! Raise shields! Set ears to ignore! Divert tabs!
 
9:32 PM
I think my brain is just slow. I don't like to be overwhelmed. This already affects my choice of food, music, clothing, perfume etc. I tend to go for simplicity and familiarity.
On the flip-side, I can still be very much in the moment, by dedicating all my attention in a very focused fashion.
 
user1804599
I should try lopado­­temacho­­selacho­­galeo­­kranio­­leipsano­­drim­­hypo­­trimmato­­silphio‌​­­parao­­melito­­katakechy­­meno­­kichl­­epi­­kossypho­­phatto­­perister­­alektry‌​on­­opte­­kephallio­­kigklo­­peleio­­lagoio­­siraio­­baphe­­tragano­­pterygon one day.
 
@crasic Again, I don't think existential fears come into play at all for me. (Well, when it comes to trusting yourself in demanding situations).
 
@thecoshman I may be speculating, but to be fair I do work in neuroscience
 
I do trust myself.
 
> As of a minute ago, Haste gives a more helpful error message when this happens, to avoid any confusion.
I love this guy :D
 
user1804599
9:34 PM
Haste your not, my friend!
 
Yes, and part of the enjoyment of climbing is trusting yourself
or any activity for that matter
Personally I've found that things like climbing/hiking/mountaineering are very therapeutic for me
 
user1804599
> Falls in love. Dies on impact.
 
I attribute it to the fact that the stress/reward is very immediate
 
@Sehe I have a nice sequence of tokens and an ugly mess for building expressions from them. What is the right way?
 
user1804599
@JohanLarsson Use a parser generator.
 
9:35 PM
the majority of stresses in our lives are incredilbly abstract, jobs, schools, personal relationships, with very non-immediate resolutions
 
user1804599
Or monadic parser combinators.
 
It's others that I don't. Hence, I won't "subject myself" to long commutes: the problem is with other people and their judgement and awareness. The odds of my own vehicle failing are "ok".
But the odds of me being behind a sloppy Polish trucker who was in a rush when securing his load? Not so trivial.
@JohanLarsson Ahead
 
outdoors it is "If I don't do this I will die", then when you do it and survive, you are rewarded immediately
 
user1804599
I want a clipboard queue.
 
user1804599
So I can copy two things and then paste two things.
 
9:36 PM
@sehe I can only think of ways that leads down from here :)
 
@JohanLarsson declarative parsers or bust.
or, if you prefer, parsec parsec parsec parsec
haskell haskell haskell haskell
 
Greetings!
 
@rightfold INB4 why does my clipboard have this stupid queue! I just want the last thing!
 
@Chimera hi there
 
@rightfold @Bartek ok gonna google it
 
user1804599
9:39 PM
@thecoshman Queuing copy would have a different shortcut than queue-replacing copy.
 
If I create a class with only private members that are int and std::string, I don't need to follow the Rule of Three correct? The default copy constructor shallow copy will be be fine correct? I only need to worry about rule of three when allocating memory dynamically?
 
@rightfold hint: stack :P
 
user1804599
No. I want to paste in order.
 
user1804599
Not in opposite order.
 
@Chimera whoah. A Chimera. That's been.... a while!
 
9:39 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Hi
 
@Chimera what decade are you from?
 
@sehe yeah been a long time.
 
user1804599
@Chimera If the only members are int and std::string, you have no constructors at all.
 
@Chimera we have rule of zero for that.
 
@Chimera Really trying to remember your real name now. It'll come to me.
 
9:40 PM
" The default copy constructor shallow copy will be be fine correct?" Isn't the copy constructor a deep copy?
 
if the 2000s call, do warn them about 9/11.
Also the tsunami, that was the 2000s right?
 
Real name is Jim
 
user1804599
@Aberrant deep copy vs shallow copy does not make sense in C++.
 
user1804599
Unless you are storing shared owning pointers (which is rare).
 
I'm making stuff up I think.
 
9:41 PM
@rightfold correct.. I wanted to cement my understanding of that fact.
 
user1804599
Deep copy is usual.
 
oh right default pointer copying is shallow
 
SRP ftw
 
user1804599
No.
 
@Chimera well, yes, in that, you don't need to define any of them.
 
9:42 PM
No?
 
@Chimera raw pointers own no data -> no destructors/copy/move ctors written by hand
 
user1804599
It just doesn’t make sense.
 
Default copy constructor is shallow... I believe
 
user1804599
Pointers by themselves don’t carry such semantics.
 
@Chimera The embedded C guy who started learning C++ back when Cicada was still a girl and apes roamed the room of pedants
 
user1804599
9:42 PM
You need a (pointer, ownership policy) pair for it to make sense.
 
@Chimera it copies by-value. By-value copy of a raw pointer is shallow.
 
@sehe yep that's me
 
and unique_ptr is simply non-copyable
 
good times
 
user1804599
Most common ownership policies are non-owning and uniquely owning. In the former case, there is nothing to copy and in the latter case you have to copy the target since you cannot copy the pointer.
 
9:43 PM
we're talking about shallow and deep copies in this context right?
http://stackoverflow.com/a/184745/982107
 
@sehe Actually, it was only one ape :P
 
user1804599
With shared pointers, garbage collection or other exotic ownership semantics it could make sense, but they’re not common.
 
@Aberrant eh, yes, in a way.
but in C++ it's really fairly obvious.
once you understand raw pointers, that is.
I was taught raw pointers in Pascal :v
 
because I'm 99% sure default pointer copying just copies the address to the same object, so that would be shallow
 
Is there a name for a deep copying pointer?
 
9:44 PM
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Chimera it copies by-value. By-value copy of a raw pointer is shallow.
 
with clone I mean
 
@ecatmur value_ptr (Boost)
 
user1804599
@Aberrant As I’m explaining, it doesn’t make much sense in C++ to say that.
 
user1804599
Copying a raw pointer does indeed not copy the pointee.
 
user1804599
Copying a value pointer does.
 
user1804599
9:44 PM
Copying a unique pointer is illegal.
 
Ok.. just wanted to make sure. My question came about after reading this:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4172722/what-is-the-rule-of-three
 
user1804599
It just depends on the kind of pointer you are using.
 
@Aberrant if you are using primitive (raw) pointers, yes, the value is all that is copied, which is the address. So if you wanted the pointed to 'thing' copied too, you would have to do so you constructor
 
@Chimera we also have rule of five now. (apart from rule of zero)
 
I like rule of zero, do fuck all, it works :P
 
9:45 PM
Oh I haven't heard of value pointers yet, I was just thinking of raw pointers (or shared)
 
@Aberrant yes, value and unique would complete the set.
 
@BartekBanachewicz and I read that with C++11 the Rule of Three may not apply may need to change because of smart pointers?
 
@Chimera that's rule of zero; if all of your objects manage themselves, you don't write anything.
the default destructor calls destructors of members, which in turn release memory
 
Ok great.. got it.. So whenever possible just use smart pointers and no need to worry about Rule of X
 
or just use by-value semantics.
 
9:47 PM
well, if you actually need pointers, yes, use smart pointers
 
Oh is value pointer the same as reference? (int&)
I've never seen anyone call those value pointers before
 
@thecoshman At least you are guaranteed consistent behavior between your objects
 
The ape is gonna be pissed when he sees this: meta.stackexchange.com/posts/105244/revisions
 
rather than a mix of defined and implied operators that most projects have
 
user1804599
I use the rule of immutability and I don’t give a shit about copies.
 
9:47 PM
I need to change my router
almost for any website I visit I first have to see this error: DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN
and then refresh the page to get it to work
like, if I don't use google for... 2 minutes, it does that with google
 
@Mysticial trolololololo
 
@StackedCrooked: By the way, I added a --version command, which will output the TeamCity build number. Dunno if you can use this to fix up your caches to invalidate the Wide-using snippets if I update Wide.
 
So smart pointers solve the shallow copy of pointers issue?
 
@DeadMG alright
 
yes.
 
9:50 PM
@rightfold yeah, immutability is nice
 
@Aberrant not really.
@rightfold <3
@Chimera to be honest, most of the time you should not use any pointers at all
hi @copy
 
user1804599
In Styx the only thing that is mutable is a channel. :F
 
At some point there has to be an end to the "not really" and "not exactly" responses regarding C++ right......?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I realize this. Just making sure I understand the implications if I do use them.
 
oh, I had a shower thought earlier... should be trivial enough shouldn't to have the git commit hash wrote to a file such that it can be included into your build. That way, your debug messages can always say the exact version of the code it is built against.
 
9:51 PM
there was a world's dumbest smart pointer a while back, did that get anywhere?
 
@Mysticial ow yeah.
@Aberrant references are not pointers.
pointers are objects, and references are not.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Hi
 
@Chimera Not using smart pointers is insanity.
 
unless you can just use values.
 
@DeadMG yep.. got it..
 
9:52 PM
never enough :)
 
@Bartek that's what I thought but when I google C++ value pointers I don't get anything relevant and the top result just explains references.
 
@Aberrant it's because it's really just a "slang" term. that's how boost called them, but it's not standarized as such or anything.
 
Ah, exempt_ptr. So you don't ever need to write * to denote pointer types.
 
@ecatmur std::add_pointer<>?
 
9:54 PM
Why isn't there are a chucknorris_ptr<> that does everything you want in the best possible way? :)
 
user1804599
 
@Mysticial because refcounting is not free :(
 
I'm just amazed that a 16 year old was able to answer 1500 questions in 6 months
 
@Mysticial pointers are chuck's only weak point
 
@StackedCrooked I just print the string on the command line, that's what you need, right?
 
9:56 PM
@DeadMG Yep, something to stdout. This will added to the input string for the hash.
 
okeydokey.
excellent.
 
Btw, /usr/local/bin/Wide/CLI --version already prints TeamCity build 174
Seems fine to me. Were you going to change this?
 
probably not, I implemented --version a few commits ago but just never got around to asking you if it was useful to you.
 
I'm just late mentioning it, I don't plan on changing it in the immediate future
 
9:57 PM
It's useful for you.
No more cache confusion.
 
yep.
soon I'll be able to bootstrap Wide on Itanium ABi systems.
 

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