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Xeo
1:00 PM
@CatPlusPlus I still got some
 
@ParkYoung-Bae that is correct. LLVM is extensively used within the CUDA compilation chain
 
I can have beer and pizza DMA'd into me? Where can I buy a controller and driver?
 
I have some but of the wrong kind
 
@MarcoA. Well yes ofc it's correct, do you think I go inventing stuff? :D
 
uh nope, but wanted to remark your point :P
 
1:01 PM
:21880909 Well, the club is 404 ATM:(
 
@AlexM. Yay! You leaned smth tdy.
 
@starmole yes, TIL that Bartek's mom is the fastest eating mammal
 
410 intensifies
 
user1804599
OTOH this is difficulter to verify.
 
1:02 PM
no :(
 
@MarcoA. Just kidding :)
 
user1804599
func even?(n: Int): Boolean ensure out != odd?(n) { ... }
func odd?(n: Int): Boolean ensure out != even?(n) { ... }
even?(x) && odd?(x) // always false
 
user1804599
Could be changed into false as an optimisation!
 
@ParkYoung-Bae or bake it into your C++ :\
 
It's still source
 
1:05 PM
I suppose
 
user3010322
People would do things like bake D3D bytecode into their apps, translate that to OpenGL source at runtime, and then pass that to the machine.
 
user3010322
That would make the source pretty unreadable garbage.
 
ergh, what a work around
 
user3010322
Right?
 
cray!
 
user3010322
1:07 PM
The reason is GPUs can have a place in memory where they essentially cache the source of your shader.
 
user3010322
If the hash of the source didn't match what you were currently compiling, only then would it do a full recompile.
 
user3010322
For D3D Bytecode, it was a hash of the bytecode.
 
user3010322
But for OpenGL, the ONLY choice you had was to hash the source.
 
user3010322
This meant anyone who knew where to look could read all your ~~proprietary shader code~~, in all its source glory.
 
so these command buffers... what is that like? I presume it's not falling back to glBegin(); ... glEnd(); nonsense
 
1:08 PM
s/glory/gory
 
@thecoshman you batch commands into a buffer, duh.
in monadic code it's a trivial change
 
lol
Bartek you should marry some kind of Monad Lisa
16
 
@BartekBanachewicz What kind of commands? How low level are they?
 
@jalf well, the Vulkan commands?
 
1:11 PM
what crazy stuff are you guys talking about???
 
I mean, duh:

glBind(shit);
glSet(5);

commands = [
  GL_BIND, shit,
  GL_SET, 5
];
run(commands);
 
> GL_BIND, shit
 
or something.
I was planning for hate to work that way at first
translating do { a; b } into run [a,b]
I had a PoC implementation and then I said well fuck it let's just take the list from the user
it's kinda like a GPU transaction
 
@BartekBanachewicz so still conceptually the same primitive operations that already existed in GL/D3D? I mean, it's not broken down to some ridiculously low level asm-like kind of thing
 
@jalf no, GL API is gone in Vulkan itself
 
1:15 PM
@jalf It is ASM-like. But a fairly high level ASM, a virtual ISA.
 
but that's orthogonal to the fact whether command buffers are used or not
 
Seriously
 
seriously what
 
What is this Vulkan thingy
 
1:16 PM
some new graphics library
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, I know that. I guess I'm not making myself clear :p
 
Something to speedup MS Paint
 
@AlexM. it's not a library, it's an API
 
Does that mean they are dropping OpenGL support?
 
@Jefffrey not immediately, I suppose.
 
1:16 PM
Or, does it build on top of OpenGL?
 
@BartekBanachewicz why is OpenGL called Open Graphics Library then
 
@Jefffrey it builds under OpenGL
@AlexM. because it's an outdated name.
 
Is it written in C++?
 
they should just call it an app then
 
Well frankly I don't know if OpenGL was ever a library
 
1:17 PM
it's the most up to date term for software
 
@Jefffrey what's written in C++? Specification of the API?
it's language agnostic, just like OpenGL
 
@BartekBanachewicz OpenGL is a C API, if I'm not mistaken?
 
@rubenvb no.
 
No it's more abstract than that
 
also I've read about OpenCL adding C++ support
 
1:18 PM
It's a machine
No idea how to explain actually
 
through some dialect of their own
with function pointers and exceptions removed
 
They are trolling aren't they?
 
@Jefffrey why would they be?
 
1:19 PM
Khronos Group
 
It was pretty obvious what GL next is going to be for like months
 
to people who followed the news and the industry
 
@Jefffrey IIRC they did that because exceptions and function pointers don't play well with parallel computing
or sth
 
BECAUSE MY PASTA IS OVERCOOKED NOW BECAUSE OF THEM
 
1:19 PM
I'm trying to figure out what the kind of commands that go into a command buffer represent, how high level they are. Are you still working with the same kind of primitive operations (use this shader and this constant buffer and this texture, and render this mesh", or do you have to build everything up yourself from much more low-level asm-like instructions
 
@AlexM. No, it's just that most GPUs don't have indirect jumps / program counter
Same reason you can't have recursion and why everything is inlined
 
@jalf it's much more low-level. Read Mantle API docs to get a feeling
 
NVIDIA GPUs have started lifting those restrictions though (but they don't support OpenCL so uhhh) Maybe @MarcoA. knows more
 
GLSL isn't turing complete because of that
 
user1804599
OK so.
 
1:23 PM
no
 
user1804599
proc f(x: Int) require x <> 0 { writeln(x) } f(0) is UB because of a precondition violation. Should I just elide the entire call as an optimisation?
 
No? It should be an error
 
user1804599
You get a warning at an earlier compilation phase.
 
A warning for a precondition violation is laxist at best
 
@ParkYoung-Bae ok, ok. I guess all I know is the gl* set of functions you call as C functions. Guess that is not what bulk OpenGL actually is.
 
1:24 PM
@BartekBanachewicz So is this a good day or a bad day for the graphic world?
 
user1804599
In debug mode it's a guaranteed runtime error.
 
@Jefffrey World is big and a lot of people live in it.
 
@rubenvb Maybe ask BartekGL for better explanations
 
@rubenvb That's just a convention introduced in C. OpenGL standard doesn't have prefixes.
A perfectly valid C++ api can use gl namespace and that's indeed what modern ones do
In haskell they went even further and wrapped setters and getters for example
 
@BartekBanachewicz The heck does that mean?
 
1:26 PM
@rubenvb It's just an API.
 
// Actors can have multiple tags (UE4)
MyActor.Tags.AddUnique(TEXT("MyTag"));
 
@Jefffrey For some people it's great. For some people it means that the times of OGL as we know it are ending. At least until someone writes a compat layer.
 
Also I just checked the SPIR-V syntax and it seems they completely divorced from the LLVM IR and made something completely new
 
shit, the workarounds I had to do in Unity because I only had a tag per object
awesome
 
1:27 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I was asking your opinion
clearly
 
@Jefffrey No, English
 
user3010322
> We think it's more fixed now. Sorry!
 
user3010322
Hue.
 
user3010322
Reusable functions?
Nah, that's for bitches.
 
I think I preferred the LLVM IR, I'm not sure
 
1:28 PM
@Jefffrey IMHO without khronos supervision the higher-level api world will become fragmented, but I suppose some new projects will emerge. If anyone that has brains starts such a project, it can mean a great foundation for hobbyists
 
Praise the Vulkanolord
 
user3010322
@BartekBanachewicz Incoming SpirGL
 
user3010322
Or, for short, Spurg.
 
Maybe finally there'll be a graphics API that's not annoying to use
 
We can expect OGL 4.5 supported for a few good years, so we have time
@CatPlusPlus this is a perfect time to start a project for an custom API that can get some attention
people are going to look for alternatives based on top of Vulkan
 
1:29 PM
@CatPlusPlus Are you drunk
 
@BartekBanachewicz Have fun!
 
I don't know enough about computer graphics to attempt that
I'm already aiming at higher level with Hate.
 
I'm not sure of one thing though. Why would you thread parallelise drawing on the screen? Sounds like parallelising writing on a file.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes But every API has a baseline language or at the very least ABI because you need to know how to call the functions if you are to use them.
 
@BartekBanachewicz have they been made made publicly available?
 
1:30 PM
Why is it not going to be a mess?
 
@Jefffrey this is perfectly reasonable.
@jalf IIRC yes
@rubenvb that's provided by the driver
VulkanGL would need to be a native library with C ABI indeed
 
@Jefffrey What
 
@rubenvb No, you don't.
 
@ParkYoung-Bae What confusing?
 
@rubenvb It's a spec
 
1:31 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes For a specification, no, but to actually be able to use an implementation, yes.
 
@ParkYoung-Bae Is that what we call him these days
 
@rubenvb No, you don't need baseline anything.
 
I'm talking about pretty much every GL implementation that exists currently.
 
@Jefffrey I think I lost the conversation somewhere
 
It uses abstract types for everything
 
1:32 PM
@rubenvb technically you could implement an OpenGL in which you give me post-it notes with commands and I draw on a sheet of paper
 
It doesn't care what implementation does
 
@BartekBanachewicz Lol yeah, sure. Same goes for C++.
 
OpenGL doesn't even say that the output has to be on the screen
 
@rubenvb Not really
 
1.x had plotter profiles/stuff for example
 
1:33 PM
Why aren't there videos that present the API yet?
I want to watch a video
All I get is vulcano stuff
 
@Jefffrey Because people who can use that api don't need/want videos
 
Maybe because they haven't even finalised the spec yet
 
If you need Vulkan, you probably already know GL spec by heart
 
@CatPlusPlus Well, there have been many talks about C++11 and C++14 before they could finalize the spec, no?
 
@Jefffrey Thursday.
 
1:34 PM
Guise Khronos always announces stuff before they're ready
 
How do you make a video out of API without implementation
 
cf Half Life 3
 
@ParkYoung-Bae It's the best way to disappoint.
 
Khronos doesn't work like C++ commitee vOv
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Exactly. But it's also a way to gain some interest from the community and hopefully some traction.
 
1:35 PM
@CatPlusPlus You explain what are the goals and main improvement goals of such an API. You gotta know those before even start writing an API, so you might as well tell us why we should care.
 
@ParkYoung-Bae the "community" are big gamedev companies, not OGL hobbyists
gamedev and proffesional, of course
 
user3010322
@ParkYoung-Bae It's like preordering, but less worth it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz For Vulkan, yes, for other Khronos projects this is not always the case
 
@BartekBanachewicz Did you misppel that intentionally?
 
1:36 PM
There are lots of companies or universities in the members
 
@ParkYoung-Bae well, Vulkan audience is different from their other projects
 
@BartekBanachewicz I was not talking about vulkan specifically, read up
 
user1804599
find-percondition-violations = move-preconditions-to-call-sites >> fold-constants >> find-false-preconditions >> each emit-warning
 
user1804599
Function composition is so awesome!
 
1:38 PM
@BartekBanachewicz valve logo is on the 3rd line
3 logos above it
Left 4 Dead 3 confirmed!
 
Portal 3
I'm producing a lot of mucus
 
you should stop being a fucking snail
 
My nose gets quickly stuffed with it
 
@AlexM. lol
 
@Jefffrey That's what she said.
 
1:40 PM
OMG NEW CSS IN SO PROFILE
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What do female robots look like.
 
sometimes I wonder if Robot is really an adult
 
@AlexM. he's a robot
 
@BartekBanachewicz rejoice. I see no difference
 
then I remember that I'm supposed to be an adult too
 
1:40 PM
@orlp Are you discriminating based on gender?
 
@Jefffrey yes
 
racist
Does anyone want mucus?
$0.25/g
I would be billionaire by the end of the day
 
I'd rather produce my own than import mucus
 
@Jefffrey What's your price on fresh smegma?
 
@ParkYoung-Bae look at the post vote counters
 
1:42 PM
@BartekBanachewicz It's been like that for a couple days
 
Are chat audits not editable yet
 
@Jefffrey Just copy the glitter concept: Send your enemy mucus
 
lol the new promo image BenQ uses for their gaming monitors 2.grgs.ro/images/products/1/960827/994922/full/…
nothing there makes sense
 
user1804599
war pig
 
user1804599
Squashy the Suicide War Pig
 
1:50 PM
"gaming monitors"
 
I should send them an email
"Hello Mr. BenQ. You have some problems with your promo image. The mission intro details would never be appropriately shown in the middle of the game, see CoD, the crosshair placement is completely wrong, and based on the minimap the player should be in a building, which is clearly not the case. Please fix this immediately."
they'll probably answer back with "Hello Mr. Autism. We're sorry, but we cannot fix this immediately."
 
> The study found the average penis had a girth of 4.59 inches (11.66 cm) when erect, and 3.66 inches (9.31cm) when flaccid.
Somehow I find that hard to believe.
 
you should find all studies hard to believe, I've not been included in one yet
 
@BartekBanachewicz sure... commands like what? "make buffer; bind buffer; send data to buffer; set buffer property;" <-- do this spock!
 
@thecoshman No. Pushing bytes down the pipeline.
 
user1804599
1:54 PM
lol redirect loop konami.jp/mgs5
 
I have no idea what my penis girth is. Probably something along the lines of verymany inches.
 
@sehe I don't find it flaccid to believe.
 
hehehe
I'll read the study one day
 
Oh.
Girth is around.
I thought it was diameter.
Now it makes sense.
 
woah... are you guys just straight up comparing penis size? It's nice to see it being done so openly for once.
now please, tuck it away
 
1:58 PM
...
It can be done much more openly, just so you know
 
sehe is right
we could share pictures!
ME FIRST
 
lol one guy notices Dropbox does API calls about files and that it coincides with some network activity, jumps into conclusion that Dropbox steals all of your files, everyone buys it
Of course the guy failed to check both API calls that were made and the volume of the traffic
> All these is a proof of an untrustworthy or fraudulent way/behaviour.
 
Why would Dropbox steal your files? It can just wait until you upload them.
@CatPlusPlus Link?
 
@CatPlusPlus Because, obviously, Dropbox would not have the means to steal the data covertly o.O
 
It's not running elevated
 
2:00 PM
Eeeeh well skype for linux is known to touch a lot of files it's not supposed to, why not d-box
 
@CatPlusPlus wow. we've found the French Indian
 
It's not even Dropbox itself but its Explorer extension, and all it does is query metadata
> DLP agent shows you exactly what are being sent. It's so clear.
> But, my agent and web security gateway decrypts SSL.
 
What? Dropbox has all my files? I thought it was just keeping them safe!
 
Didn't even notice that client has pinned cert and would immediately bail out if he just tried to proxy it
 
all of a sudden
snowstorm
with huge snowflakes
and wind
 
2:05 PM
snofleks
 
I don't get it. Why would dropbox risk something like that
They have a million dollar business.
 
It's just how the shell extension works
 
WTF Windows Explorer. If you have sibling folders named Foo and Bar, and you rename Bar (using F2 to edit the name) to Foo (by accident), explorer will effectively mv Bar/* Foo/. I noticed, because I got overwrite prompts.
 
ahahaha
 
(Of course my actual folder names were complicated enough not to spot the problem. I work at IBM Acronis now)
 
2:09 PM
to the AI guys
have you seen Google's Deep Mind project?
after 600 iterations supposedly learned to get the ball on top in arkanoid
 
Yes it's terrible it can't play GW2
> is looking for a passionate, world-class computer scientist
no
 
I seriously consider writing a wrapper for #Vulkan called eyjafjallajökull (would make for a great namespace too) xD
Imagination Technologies seems to have a pretty advanced Vulkan drivers: http://blog.imgtec.com/powervr/trying-out-the-new-vulkan-graphics-api-on-powervr-gpus #GiveMeThatDrivers!
 
Sorry for opinionated question, but, is it best to check if a file on hard drive exists and then delete it, or best to delete a file and handle the exception if one is thrown (such as file not exists)... I'm thinking this because I could check to see if a file exists and between then and the delete time, it could be gone any way, so should I even check if it exists?
 
> For example, there are no glUniform*() equivalent entry points in Vulkan; instead, writing to GPU memory is the only way to pass data to shaders
> In Vulkan, you simply map the memory address and write to that memory location directly.
 
user1804599
2:13 PM
eyjafjallajekyll
 
@MyDaftQuestions What do you want to do if the file doesn't exist?
 
vkCmdBindDescriptorSet(cmdBuffer, VK_PIPELINE_BIND_POINT_GRAPHICS,
textureDescriptorSet[0], 0);
vkQueueSubmit(graphicsQueue, 1, &cmdBuffer, 0, 0, fence);
vkMapMemory(staticUniformBufferMemory, 0, (void **)&data);
// ...
vkUnmapMemory(staticUniformBufferMemory);
hey look some code
 
@Jefffrey - nothing at all. Only delete it if it can be deleted
 
Then catch the exception and ignore it if it's about a file not being found
 
perfect - thank you
 
2:15 PM
@MyDaftQuestions File locks do exist, you know.
 
@Griwes, I didn't consider that...
hmmmmm.... yes. Good point
 
My point was better
 
:) :) :)
Right, i'm off to have a play. Thank you for the thoughts and time
 
SAY IT
 
@CatPlusPlus Gosh, an application designed to sync files over a network accesses both files and network?
 
user1804599
2:17 PM
Daft Punk
 
@jalf In-depth security analysis!
"It does things, qed"
 
user3010322
@BartekBanachewicz Sounds like my kinda party.
 
Xeo
@jalf Well, the "outside the dropbox sync folder" may sound suspicious on first thought - until you remember the explorer hooking.
 
@ParkYoung-Bae my coworkers were pondering on whether the CSAML post was a joke or not
> Explicit memory management in Vulkan allows applications to use custom allocation strategies. For example to allocate all memory up-front and avoid any allocations during rendering.
 
user1804599
Does it allow a GC?
 
2:26 PM
@ThePhD if you lay your hands on vulcan and get something to render remember to plink me
I might miss it otherwise.
 
IRTA remember to plonk me
 
is strtok thread-local?
 
user1804599
No, it's a global function.
 
> The strtok_r() function is a reentrant version strtok(). The saveptr argument is a pointer to a char * variable that is used internally by strtok_r() in order to maintain context between successive calls that parse the same string.
ah well
 
ew vk prefix
 
2:33 PM
@BartekBanachewicz ping me too kthx
 
user1804599
nice username
 
@Borgleader ah I thought you weren't interested in shader compilation/transpiling
@райтфолд nice avatar
 
user1804599
lol
 
user1804599
2:36 PM
I expected an empty graph.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes cool
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm interested in all things 3d
@R.MartinhoFernandes cool, but, why do you have this?
 
Exactly!
 
@Borgleader it's his job IIRC
@Borgleader y u not on the game jam list then
 
2:39 PM
@Borgleader I work with this.
 
@BartekBanachewicz No time :(
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, neat!
 
My eyes were closed. You can tell by the alpha activity in the back of the brain.
 
@Borgleader even on sunday?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'll see, if im not too dead from work. or rather work + commute times (2x 2h a day)
 
@Borgleader every day? Holy shit. I barely took it for 2 months 3 times a week
 
2:46 PM
I commute 15 minutes on foot to work
 
I cross the street to work.
 
This smells like undefined behavior, but without an MCVE this question is off-topic — Mgetz 30 secs ago
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I cross the street. Several times.
> I want to communicate with an arduino via a serial port.
 
user1804599
I don't want to communicate.
 
user1804599
I dislike communication.
 
2:49 PM
This is why you keep chatting
 
Then please for the love of god don't!
Again, the fact that people do something that fit the word move does not mean they actually realize this fact. — Elazar 1 hour ago
wot
this guy thinks that move semantics in C++ brought the notion of moving-not-copying data into the public consciousness in way that apparently nobody had explicitly thought of until then.
 
I don't want to communicate with anything via a serial port, (except maybe a debug port on an embedded system that might stay working when the other ports are borked).
 
user1804599
 * [new tag]         v0.0.14 -> v0.0.14
 * [new tag]         v0.0.15 -> v0.0.15
 * [new tag]         v0.0.16 -> v0.0.16
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 * [new tag]         v0.0.18 -> v0.0.18
 * [new tag]         v0.0.19 -> v0.0.19
 * [new tag]         v0.0.20 -> v0.0.20
 * [new tag]         v0.0.21 -> v0.0.21
 * [new tag]         v0.0.22 -> v0.0.22
 * [new tag]         v0.0.23 -> v0.0.23
 * [new tag]         v0.0.24 -> v0.0.24
 * [new tag]         v0.0.25 -> v0.0.25
 * [new tag]         v0.0.26 -> v0.0.26
 
user1804599
I should push tags more often.
 
@sehe I just PuTTY to it.
 
user3010322
2:53 PM
@BartekBanachewicz It's going to take forever to make that happen.
 
user3010322
OpenGL will be on board but getting a comformant D3D compiler will be hard.
 
BTW Visual Studio's solution explorer search is really really good
 
Seriously
 
I can feel the sarcasm.
 
user3010322
2:54 PM
The good news is, you can take care of Microsoft not contributing by just writing a SPIR-V -> HLSL compiler.
 
it works fast and gives me information I need quickly
in a readable manner
 
You must be confusing with another IDE
Oh wait
 
@ParkYoung-Bae His single project is empty.
 
Do I need to record a video to show you that it really works in order for you to believe me?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wanted to say that too
@BartekBanachewicz No, I picked up the sarcasm eventually
 
2:55 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes 3.7MB of sources
I think it's in order of 100-200kLoC
 
I like when I use "go to definition" and VS hangs because it can't figure out it's in that file I have open in the next tab
 
@ParkYoung-Bae I have it under F2 and it also work nicely most of the time
 
I don't think Bartek is being sarcastic, which is the really sad thing
 
sometimes it can't find things, but in general it's ok
 
user3010322
std::find_all_if
 
user3010322
2:57 PM
I wonder what that would return.... a collection of iterators?
 
Okay maybe he's not, I am a bit worried now (are we talking about Microsoft Visual Studio?)
 
@ThePhD cripes
@ParkYoung-Bae uh yes
Community 2013
 
@BartekBanachewicz False negatives in a search feature are not ok.
 
I'll have whatever you're having
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I meant "go to definition"
 
2:58 PM
A false negative there is even worse. (It's supposed to be a smart search feature, FFS)
 
user3010322
I wish I could stack commands.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can waste a keypress if it doesn't work.
 
@BartekBanachewicz How so?
 
user3010322
Like "If Visual Assist X's Find Implementation fails, use VS's Find Declaration"
 
2:59 PM
Well if it works I am at the definition
if it doesn't, I have to search manually
 
user3010322
Because right now VS's Find Declaration actually properly handles using statements.
 
In my case I skip the "if it works" step altogether
 
user3010322
Maybe the latest VAX can handle the using statement.
 

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