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09:00
@Puppy the term JIT here is used differently than what you're used to
So if a mul becomes 3 cycles on a new CPU instead of 4 cycles the assembly must change or your code will blow up
@Rapptz you're my hero
@orlp That's dumb.
@Rapptz do you remember what the lecture was called?
@Puppy so this is not an argument for the Mill, it's the rebuttal of an argument against the Mill - that code would have to be recompiled for everything
@Puppy static scheduling has this disadvantage, but the advantage is that a statically scheduled CPU has many many power and performance advantages
@BenjaminGruenbaum The guy's name is Mike Acton.
Just look him up.
all of which were found to be weak when x86 and it's brethren introduced OOO in the first place.
huh... we have huge problems with DB layer bottle necking us... even though it's small enough to sit in RAM... a lot of ram sure, but still possible for it to sit there.
Oh yeah, he had a C++con talk, not the one I was thinking of though
@Puppy could you rephrase that?
Sorry for the interruption, but is it possible to initialize a protected member int variable in a .cpp file?
09:03
@orlp OOO scheduling clearly doesn't cost enough performance and power; or x86 wouldn't use it.
@Puppy but x86 is a register machine, the Mill is not
@Jefffrey any time I want to use the you tubes
@Puppy 80% of the power in superscalar OOO register machines is used on getting data and code from one place to another, and only 20% on actual processing
@BenjaminGruenbaum this one?
uh huh.
and?
09:05
@thecoshman This is the cppcon one, I'm looking for an older one
you can't change CPU arch and somehow suddenly dodge the realities of cache and RAM.
A statically scheduled wide-issue stack machine like the Mill doesn't have this
@Puppy the Mill can and does through smart methods
they say they can, but whether or not they actually can is another matter.
@BenjaminGruenbaum newer one is probably more relevant though.
@Puppy the talks are long, and there are a lot of them, but I'd still suggest them regardless because I think the architecture has a lot of potential
09:07
lol, look what I found:
Aug 30 '13 at 14:53, by Cat Plus Plus
DOD is a recent buzzword gamedevs use to justify their ugly, badly designed code.
user1804599
> Instruction Encoding
user1804599
lolx86
@rightføld ?
@orlp Disagree. You can't change CPU arch and suddenly teleport data.
@Puppy what do you mean with teleport data?
09:08
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's not false.
I don't like Mike Acton.
lol
if it takes 200ns to get data from RAM to CPU, it doesn't matter what CPU arch you have, it's still gonna take 200ns.
Just look at this guy's opinion on "STL"
20
A: STL for games, yea or nay?

KeyframeHere is what Mike Acton (Engine Director at Insomniac Games of Spyro the Dragon, Ratchet & Clank and Resistance fame) had to say about this when asked here. Note he was asked about both STL and Boost in general as related to usage in game dev. STL/Boost, does it belong into gamedev? If only part...

> Data: Beam me up, Scotty.
(Yes, I know)
@Rapptz that's retarded
@Rapptz Why bring him up?
09:11
@LucDanton Scroll up? We were talking about it.
@LucDanton I'm trying to find an old DoD lecture I saw.
@Rapptz Oh I thought I had Ctrl-F’d the transcript.
I do sort of see what's he saying, it's a bit like design patterns, people might force their design to use a particular method, just because they know of it, rather than it actually being the right solution.
@Puppy sorry missed your message, late reply - if it doesn't matter for CPU arch, why even bring it up as an argument?
@thecoshman My tubes? You effing pervert.
09:14
o_0 "Multiple Inheritance, that's right out, it's just dumb"
@thecoshman Except that's exactly what he does.
@R.MartinhoFernandes well no, he puts a lot more effort into it. :P
ffs Visual Studio, why you suck so badly?
@orlp I think this is the real gift of the standard library. They put in a lot (LOT) of smarts so you /don't ever have to/ write special purpose knock-offs . Look at that shared-mem allocator demo I wrote. Custom pointer abstraction, scoped allocators with "magic element construction", rebinding, whatnot: it is all within the reach and you can stitch together the exact behaviour you require (could even cobble a pool allocator on the shmem allocator first, e.g.).
One of the rare thing(s) more generic are Boost Intrusive containers.
I'm not saying the idea is bad
the execution is a mess
largely due to backwards compatability
you'll have to keep in mind I'm 19 years old
I'm relatively new to the computing world
09:24
So VS has just decide to not open one particular .cc file
wherever I see backwards compatibility I don't see a solution - I see cruft
everything else the IDE opens just fine, but this one? Let's just ignore that
this is also what makes me so excited for for example the Mill CPU
@jalf I bet on a bug in code highlighting due to a utf char
whether I click on it in solution explorer or drag it in from outside VS or something entirely different
09:25
copy it to notepad, convert to ascii, copy back
Also - clean the solution and clear the cache
@orlp I love this. I'm not surprised. People just vastly underestimate the complexity that the standard library hides. I'd say that this means it's not failing at it's job
@sehe forgive my non-native non-subtle english, but what exactly is it that you love, and what are you not surprised about?
@orlp :) Age really doesn't matter here. I agree there's /some/ backwards compatibility cruft (although for deques, I'd think it's limited to swap vs move and allocators?)
@orlp Oh sorry. My message was a continuation of my previous point. I was slightly delayed (someone at the door in the office)
Xeo
Xeo
> Please enter your login password using 8 to 16 characters.
grrrrrrrr
@sehe I do have a major gripe with the c++ standard
09:29
@Xeo UTF-32 characters. Oughta be enough
@sehe it's become too large to be a document
Mmm. Except that "documentizing it" lends a natural inertia that is beneficial
Look at PHP. It's not inert at all!
@sehe often to fully understand the semantics of the operation you'll have to follow all kinds of references to other operations with different impliciations and conditions
@sehe I mean that a single "book format" document is the wrong structure for something like this
Well. Shall I link to WP for "intrinsic complexity"?
@orlp that's pretty much how standards work. :)
09:31
WP?
Trying to read it as a book is the wrong way to approach it
well of course
but it is released as book form
@orlp Except, it has benefits, that are really subtle. The "single document form" makes it very clear what needs to be formally reviewed, what has been, and what not. Any other form would cloud this.
It's a reference document for looking things up. And when you look things up in it, you might find other things that need to be looked up in order to understand the semantics
it would be much better suited in a website format with a lot of cross references
09:31
who buys me "more effective C++" for Christmas?
Now, if you propose hyperlinks inside the standard, my votes are 10/10
@MarcoA. Money can't buy you love!
@orlp Go for it. The source is on github
@sehe I wasn't asking for love :/
@sehe this is not a one-man project :P
@orlp you know that if you view the PDF version, it does have cross references as hyperlinks, right? :)
I agree it could be done better and more smoothly in website form
@jalf and those are hardly enough
09:33
@orlp but a hell of a lot better than nothing :p
for example, unless I absolutely have to be sure of something I much prefer a format like cppreference and use it
And that is why cppreference exists :)
what I mean it that the standard could also be written in that format
the standard serves a different purpose
it doesn't
the standard is just more reputable
this is not a tradeoff of formats
09:34
@orlp ISTR a SO user with a "hyperlinked" "annotated" version of the C++ standard up on his stie. Sadly, don't remember who. It wasn't a lounge regular IIRC
cppreference is just strictly better
@orlp and cppreference.com
yet not 'official'
@orlp For the things that it covers, sure
@orlp haha timing
09:35
But what it covers is a tiny subset of what the standard has to do
Let me put it like this, I think you could rewrite the standard in a format similar to cppreference and it would be just as precise, and a hella lot easier to read
cppreference can make lots of simplifying assumptions because their purpose is to help C++ programmers understand the standard library.
@jalf examples?
@orlp they can revise the wording at will
@sehe I've not heard of anyone (here) having such a thing.
09:37
The standard has to be pretty strict about terminology because it matters when you're writing a compiler, and it matters when trying to resolve obscure ambiguities
@jalf and how is this a good thing that helps?
@jalf inconsistent terminology isn't particularly helpful for any format
@orlp allowing compilers to be written? That seems pretty handy to me
no, the converse
that revising wording at will is a good thing
@orlp It allows you to choose the terminology that gets the idea across to a typical C++ programmer
and why would that be a thing that's inherent to the format and layout of cppreference?
it seems irrelevant to me
09:39
@orlp it is what makes cppreference readable. Go ahead, feel free to take a sample page from the standard and try formatting it like cppreference
it still makes no bloody sense because it is written in terse standardese
@orlp I said take a page from the standard
@jalf that is a page from the standard
maybe we need like simple.en.cppreference.com :P
@orlp I'm pretty sure it's not. Show me the corresponding page in the standard
09:42
say... is it far to say that as Rust puts such tight checks on the code at compile time, it can have more relaxed runtime code... which means faster... compared with say, C++?
@jalf allocator.requirements
@thecoshman Not in its present state.
i.imgur.com/T8WtQmA.png something about this is hilarious. All those Hello mails read
> Hello kqinfotech, i provide different accounts for mass-mailing,
you can buy here:

--> http ://getmyfollowers.com/

My Contact Details:

Email : [email protected] , [email protected]
Skype: fans4web
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Also i have instagram accounts, likes, followers and more more more...

You can also buy direct, just send me money to paypal: [email protected] and email me transaction id.
@LucDanton what do you mean? That it could be, but is currently no taking advantage of it?
It's a good day for training spam filters
09:43
@sehe you read mail via cli?
@thecoshman Oh, I meant that I don’t think it can generate code that outperforms C++ due to its additional static checks alone.
@thecoshman sometimes, yes (quite often, at work)
TIL sehe is a real nerd :P
Then again, the only checks I have in mind right now are lifetime checks. I may be overlooking something (well, not the runtime bounds check in any case).
09:44
@orlp Uses very different wording in my copy of the standard
@LucDanton well, I guess it depends how much time C++ spends doing runtime checks.
@TonyTheLion real nerds would use Pine, right
@jalf again, that's irrelevant
@jalf the important part is that you could put it in a cppreference style format
@orlp Not when you literally asked me how cppreference benefited from being able to use different wording!
using the standard wording
09:45
@sehe I hadn't heard of it until you mentioned it, so I'm obviously not a real nerd :P
And I asked you to show me a page from the standard, and how it would look if formatted as cppreference, but preserving the standard wording
It is the exact opposite of irrelevant
> Go ahead, feel free to take a sample page from the standard and try formatting it like cppreference
TIL I learned formatting == wording
I'm not talking about the wording
I'm talking about the layout and format
TIL reading comprehension
Formatting != wording
in other words, take a page from the standard, do not change the wording, but do change the formatting, so that the formatting matches cppreference
what on earth makes you think that's impossible?
What on earth makes you think I think it's impossible?
I asked you to do it, so you can see the result for yourself
09:47
because you challenge me to
Because you seem to think that the standard would magically become easy to read if only it was formatted differently
I'm challenging you to give it a try. Not for the whole standard, but just for a page or two
Anyway, I have to work. Have fun
not easier to read
easier to follow
with crossreferences
and not wasting all your time scrolling and finding the right section/note
allowing multiple tabs to be open so you can switch quickly back and forth
Once again, the pdf version has embedded cross references
etc
@jalf not for nearly enough things
@orlp I agree, that would be nice. Which is why I started out saying that yes, it could be formatted much nicer on a website
09:49
that was my entire argument!
@TonyTheLion oh well, it's what we "used" when I was in college. Not that email was a big thing then
But unlike you, I don't think that it magically becomes something it isn't if you do that. It'll still be the standard, written in crypting standardese, for an entirely different purpose and a different audience than cppreference
Email was hipster, back then
@jalf once you have cross referenced everything in a machine-parseable format you can automatically derive and inline things like conditions and noexcept specifiers
@sehe oh woah
09:52
@TonyTheLion he's really old man.
@sehe what did normal people use? savage sheets of paper?
How can you not know Pine? :)
Though I have later been using Alpine as Pine was abandoned, I think.
@thecoshman phones. I.e. landlines
@VáclavZeman Switched clean to mutt. That is, after using all manner of MUA
@sehe I have used that as well for some time on FreeBSD. Then I have lost the account on the FreeBSD machine and did not need it anymore.
09:56
@sehe I remember those :P
@orlp yes, and that makes up roughly 0.03% of the ground that the standard has to cover
in other news, wow, I can't math today
ITT C++ has a complex specification.
user1804599
10:24
Cacti y u no work.
@rightføld You're watering it too often.
user1804599
> COC wants extra toilets for transgenders on high schools.
user1804599
Why does that remind me of South Park.
user1804599
It's a very bad idea too.
transgenders. high schools.
Ell
Ell
10:33
Just get rid of urinals
And have unisex bathrooms
Its not hard
urinals are seriously a 19thC throwback
such madness
there's a discotheque in Hamburg where you have separate doors to the bathrooms but when you go in, you end up in the same unisex bathroom :-)
user1804599
@Ell Muslims don't like it so you're racist if you do that.
Ell
Ell
Fuck them
user1804599
10:36
But I agree. It's a great idea.
Ell
Ell
And everyone else, just to be fair ;)
user1804599
Separate toilets for men and women is silly.
okey so
ah right human stuff first
hi
user1804599
what is human
user1804599
user1804599
10:38
dat human
@rightføld no, you're not. Muslims are not a race, and if someone wants special treatment you can provide it but you don't have to. And you definitely are not racist, sexist, religionist or whateverist if you don't. You are only if you provide special treatment for some group but deny it to another.
@Nooble How would a robot end up half man?
user1804599
Hello Mr. Serious. Long time no see!
user1804599
Been visiting Captain Obvious for a while?
Combination surgery/maiming.
10:42
@ArneMertz uh
kdab.com/new-service-fix-qt-bug, is it a right price to ask for 7500€ for a qt bugfix? I don't think so, furthermore it depends on the bug
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes An orgcyb!
how do you define "special treatment" then? Or rather, how do you define inherently "non-special" treatment?
user1804599
@MarcoA. You can ask whatever you want.
user1804599
If people are stupid enough to pay too much it's their own problem.
10:44
@MarcoA. How many manhours is 7500 euros?
@rightføld I second that
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have no idea, but might be something like 3-4 months. Way too much if the bug is trivial to fix
how can you ask for a fixed price?
If it was trivial, people would fix it instead of paying.
@MarcoA. They pre-screen applications.
@MarcoA. what on earth are you hiring that 7500 euros pays for 3-4 months of manhours?
@R.MartinhoFernandes in huge production codebases not always you realize that it's trivial (especially when you have nasty release-only problems)
@MarcoA. Then it's not trivial by definition.
10:47
@MarcoA. sounds like monkeyhours
lol
You have to include the time to realize what the bug is.
"if only I realized that the issue is trivial it would be trivial"
I've debugged countless incredibly nasty bugs
@orlp yeah! I wish I had realized that sometimes
You'd use that time if you were to fix it yourself. It only makes sense to pay for that time if someone else takes it.
My only question with that listing is that they're awfully confident.
10:48
once you've debugged them it's usually one semicolon that's missing somewhere
or a negation in the wrong place
that's "trivial"
but the debugging process is what makes it hard and expensive
Like they're confident that they can get it fixed and accepted by Qt.
It just seems weird to me.
you can point me to a 20 LOC snippet and tell me that you're 100% sure it has a bug and I'll fix it in no time
I'm sure it's well deserved.
@Rapptz I think they're talking about Qt codebases, not Qt itself?
Yea?
10:49
> And if for any reason your Qt fix cannot be included in Qt, we’ll even maintain it for you **
especially if the compilation chain is so linear and well-designed, something on the lines of

C++ -> front-end -> LLVM IR -> optimizer + codegen -> x86 assembly -> LLVM IR again -> Python -> ??? -> WINZIP -> Prolog code -> wtf -> .docx files -> [^_^]-> x86_64 binary
oh nvm
@MarcoA. 99.999 times the error is in the code, not somewhere else in the toolchain
@R.MartinhoFernandes What happens if they don't fix it though?
Oh well, I guess they'll refund you or something.
@orlp that's right but it makes it hard to debug it
10:50
@Rapptz you sue them for breach of contract?
They pre-screen applications anyway.
Or is it evaluation first then pay
> We reserve the right to reject a bug fix request if the issue is deemed technically insurmountable or would cause disproportionate effort. Customers will be informed of such cases as soon as the evaluation part of the process is over.
@MarcoA. blame how CPUs work, not the toolchain
I suppose so.
10:52
@orlp I still don't like to tweak C++ code with a .bat file, though
and IIRC, we had that.
what on earth
are you talking about
if you're tweaking C++ code with a .bat file you're hiring incompetent programmers
if you're paying 7500 euro for 3-4 months of work, I'm not surprised you're stuck with incompetent programmers
(cough.. manager... cough..)
it's really hard sometimes listen to a talk and the guy sounds like white noise with his breathing
It's nearly 11/11/11. I think a reboot should cover a two-minute silence.
@MartinJames oh yeah...
10:58
ITT Martin travels from three years ago.
oh yeah it's 11 AM there
dang
it's 12
WTF IS THAT EDIT

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