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2:00 PM
@LucDanton So he creates CatPlusPluses.
 
… bored …
 
@KonradRudolph I'm more bored than you!
 
aren’t you working?
I mean, technically so am I, but …
 
@KonradRudolph Last day. So, no, not really.
 
its midnight here. so :)
im drunk :D
 
2:02 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Of the week? Or are you leaving?
 
Even if I had a task to do, what's the worse that could happen? Getting fired on my last day?
@KonradRudolph Second.
 
@CatPlusPlus I wish I could take days off.
 
where to?
and why?
 
@KonradRudolph if working means waiting for unittests or for the compiler to recover from a crash... yes, that's boring ;)
 
2:02 PM
I mean, technically I can, I have 13 fucking days stored, but we're understaffed and that level editor isn't gonna code itself.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Used yours up?
 
@KonradRudolph Medical imaging company in Berlin.
 
@ArneMertz Unit tests? LOL U funny. I’m writing bioinformatics analysis scripts
 
@CatPlusPlus I can't afford to leave work. My team needs me.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, may I ask which one? I know one or two where friends are working
 
2:03 PM
@EtiennedeMartel there's no me in team...unless you get clever and rearrange the letters...
 
@KonradRudolph ok, sounds like the incarnation of boredom itself o.O
@melak47 meat yummi
 
@ArneMertz Well I’m getting cool results so it’s OK … but the fact that these scripts run for eternities and at the end you get an error … takes a toll
 
@KonradRudolph and there can't be unit tests for those scripts? :D
 
@LucDanton As they should be.
 
@ArneMertz Ain’t nobody got time for that
 
2:05 PM
@CatPlusPlus ikr :D
 
@KonradRudolph Not sure I want to post here :S
 
or, put differently, I’m pretty convinced that this is a use-case where writing unit tests honestly doesn’t pay off
 
Nobody should ever be content with subpar tools.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes are you scared of us Berliners? :3
 
ich bin ein binliner
 
2:06 PM
@KonradRudolph they say that a lot about unit tests... but if you have time to wait for eternities until the scripts fail anyways...
 
jelly donuts!
 
Puppy is a binliner.
6
 
how is berlin?
 
@ArneMertz well that’s not a case that the unit test would catch for me …
 
@KonradRudolph okay, thats another thing :)
 
2:07 PM
i keep meaning to visit that place
my bro is in amsterdam atm, working for layar
 
I don't care if I care about revealing this shit or not, but I have been thinking that if I don't care about caring about it now, when I make a decision about caring about it I cannot care about it anymore.
 
lol … makes sense
 
I love this kind of sentences.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes uhm...
 
I probably got it from some books. Pratchett maybe.
 
2:09 PM
lots of caring
 
@KonradRudolph It's a small company btw, with only three people (including me) working on the software, the rest (five? six? not sure) do hardware.
 
Is there ANY good books on getting started in game development?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah, that sounds familiar (in principle; not that particular company probably)
 
1. Learn programming. 2. Write games.
 
@KonradRudolph I'll ask around if anyone knows you.
 
2:10 PM
Damn, type level lambda abstractions. This thing has everything.
 
anyway, sounds cool, there’s surely a lot of interesting things to do
 
games are overrated ;)
 
@KonradRudolph Yeah, that was one of the motivating factors for change.
 
hehe, if there’s a dude by the name of Uwe or Basti hanging around there, he may. Otherwise probably no.
 
have a nice weekend guys :)
 
2:16 PM
0
Q: Is C++ hard or quirky?

SecretGeneral Consensus in learning C++ : It's Cancer! It blows off your whole leg. It's needlessly complex. It's not worth it. Now my question is, is C++ hard or quirky? What I mean by this is it just hard because of the fact that you have more control? Low level pointer and memo...

You guys tell me!
 
both
job done, where's my beer
 
If you want a low-level language, you better start with C. — H2CO3 9 secs ago
 
Hey, it's that guy again.
 
i write very cish C++
 
CERTIFIED BAD PROGRAMMER detected
 
2:17 PM
so...
 
We should send @jalf to bully him.
I'm sure it'll turn out alright.
 
H2CO3 is bad?
 
@KonradRudolph Don't you know H2CO3?
 
He's... weird.
I mean, something probably broke down in his head.
 
2:18 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I do but however he annoying he is, he usually knows his C++.
 
I do not value the skills of a douchebag.
 
@KonradRudolph He prefers C. For some whacky reason.
 
@H2CO3 Everyone hates C. Even those who use it. — Etienne de Martel 5 secs ago
 
rofl. C's ok
C++ is just easier to use
even if you write Cish C++ like i do
 
2:20 PM
yup
 
C# is cool.
 
classes are useful abstractions
 
ALRIGHT?
 
They're both hard to use in their own way.
 
THAT IS TOTALLY RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION AT HAND.
 
2:20 PM
c# is a nifty language :)
 
(For the record, I just got hit by the caffeine high)
 
@EtiennedeMartel You know, I never had one of those. At least in a way that I could tell. Not even right before I stopped taking coffee and was having six a day as a baseline.
I did feel horrible for a couple days, though.
 
@MattD No, it's not.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What.
 
@EtiennedeMartel A caffeine high.
I don't know what it feels like.
 
2:22 PM
Hmm.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I meant six a day?
That's a hell of a lot.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Six coffees, yes.
@EtiennedeMartel It was free!
 
@CatPlusPlus By "broken tool", do you mean C? If so, that's BS. This whole "language X is superior/inferior to language Y" debate is BS anyway. There aren't "better" or "worse" languages. There are languages suited for one purpose or another, and there's personal preference, but nothing else. — H2CO3 57 secs ago
YOU ARE SO BAD
 
i agree, kind of
except php, which is shit
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can't drink more than two a day without shitting my innards out, so I don't know how you do it.
 
@CatPlusPlus Calling C bad design is pretty damn ignorant though
C is old. It was very good design at the time
 
2:24 PM
Why did we never try to summon that guy here?
 
it was simple, it was high-level, and it performed the things it was designed to perform well
 
@EtiennedeMartel I don't. Not anymore.
 
I mean, sure, it would be like building the cesspit under your house.
 
@EtiennedeMartel He's been around.
 
C's ok. i just prefer the additional bits n bobs you get with c++
 
2:25 PM
Anyway. Been Googling some unrelated terms, and there's something I found interesting.
 
although there's recently way too many ancillary features to c++
 
> Plan your travel to Portugal. Looking for romance, discovering culture, living adventure, relaxing?
 
also _restrict is lovely
 
Why is romance first in that list?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Because of the language!
 
2:25 PM
I'm not sure it's that kind of romance.
 
Hmm, I'm on a bad joke day.
It's not that I think up more bad jokes than usual, it's just that today I don't censor them so often.
 
In fact, I'm fairly certain you guys are trying to have sex with tourists.
 
JBL
@KonradRudolph The more I see these questions, the more I wonder if it is indeed a language worth learning...
But for w/e reason I keep going..
 
Meh.
 
2:28 PM
C++ is badly taught, but it's not bad.
 
JBL
Thing is, i'm not informed enough to know/explain why
 
You just have to be careful about learning it.
 
JBL
The only thing I got so far is that TMP is pretty much unique
 
Because there is a lot of crap out there.
 
c/c++ are great. but its easy to do stupid things. learning c# is easier
 
JBL
2:28 PM
And that it's useful for number crunching.
 
@EtiennedeMartel There's this guy from Algarve that is sorta famous for sleeping with all the tourists (he claims over 2000).
 
@JerryCoffin Is FORTRAN still good for number crunching?
 
The only good thing I know of C++ is "It's the language with the best support for variadic, generic programming."
It's a bit specific.
 
@MattD If you're an incompetent programmer, you will do stupid things no matter what language you use.
 
ugh.
 
2:30 PM
@JBL Unique in its archaicness? Yes.
 
@Insilico true. but thats like saying if youre an incompetent soldier you'll shoot yourself in the foot. the difference is some languages are nerf guns. others are nukes
 
@KonradRudolph And that matters how?
 
@CatPlusPlus It’s in direct contradiction to what you said
 
I'm p sure planes from 1900 were considered a good design, too.
 
@MattD Actually I find more stupid crap in the languages that "hold your hand" more because of the fact that it "holds your hand" and doesn't force you to think what the hell you're doing
 
JBL
2:31 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Like I said, I'm pretty much ignorant about it (and I feel I shouldn't use C++ because I don't do TMP, though that's not backed by arguments in my head)
 
Back then. Industries evolve. Things change.
 
Depends on what you think TMP is.
 
People use Rust now.
I think.
 
@Insilico yeah. but you want to teach people the art of programming, which is problem solving :) syntax can be learnt
 
Evaluation of design 20 years ago is irrelevant to evaluation of design NOW.
And C is bad.
 
2:32 PM
C++ is only concepts away from going from 'cruddy TMP' to 'avant-garde generic programming'. Maybe.
 
IME what a great number of people refer to when they say TMP is pretty much pointless.
 
wtf is TMP?
 
@MattD Template metaprogramming
Template metaprogramming (TMP) is a metaprogramming technique in which templates are used by a compiler to generate temporary source code, which is merged by the compiler with the rest of the source code and then compiled. The output of these templates include compile-time constants, data structures, and complete functions. The use of templates can be thought of as compile-time execution. The technique is used by a number of languages, the best-known being C++, but also Curl, D, and XL. Template metaprogramming was, in a sense, discovered accidentally: see . Some other languages suppor...
 
oh template metaprogramming. that wonderful thing people look at at universties but no one ever uses in the wild
 
(IOW TMP factorial pisses me off)
@MattD That is so not true.
 
2:33 PM
The opposite, in fact. Well I hope no institution bothers teaching it.
 
@MattD Actually modern C++ libraries uses it all the time.
 
I'm currently playing with Expression Trees.
Those are cool.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes, but it’s not badly designed
 
yeah i've read the boost code. its crazy.
 
The Steyr TMP (Taktische Maschinenpistole/Tactical Machine Pistol) is a select-fire 9x19mm Parabellum caliber machine pistol manufactured by Steyr Mannlicher of Austria. The Magazines come in 15-, 20-, or 30-round detachable box types. A suppressor can also be fitted. The Steyr SPP is the civilian variant of the TMP which has no foregrip and is capable of semi-automatic fire only. In 2001, Steyr sold the design to Brügger & Thomet who developed it into the Brügger & Thomet MP9. SPP The Steyr SPP (Special Purpose Pistol) is a semi-automatic variant of the TMP. The TMP's barrel and ...
 
2:33 PM
@MattD No one looks at TMP in universities, yet it gets uses all over in the wild.
 
Fine, I can say "C's design is obsolete and C is no longer a good tool".
 
i've never seen anyone actually use it in the wild. in 15 years
 
That only changes :words:
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes "all over" -> in good libraries
 
Doesn't change the fact that you shouldn't call it a good tool.
 
2:34 PM
@MattD It's used inside good libraries, as sehe said.
 
i never said it was a bad tool :)
 
@MattD Last day on a job with TMP in the codebase; next job will also have TMP in the codebase.
 
Bad design, obsolete design, same difference.
 
I've just never seen anyone bother to use it, nor have I ever encountered a problem which warrented its use
 
The syntax for TMP is unwieldy as all hell though, which is why libraries try to hide it away from the user as much as they can.
 
2:35 PM
No longer an appropriate design.
 
@CatPlusPlus It makes the words reflect the idea you wanted to convey more accurately. You cannot complain that people failed to get your idea when you don't care to communicate it properly :|
 
outside of purely academic or curious usage, or alexandrescu books
 
(I've been missing that word)
@R.MartinhoFernandes I might be assuming and expecting too much from people.
 
@MattD I am certain it's used extensively outside "academic" scenarios.
I'm sure the C++ standard library uses it in some fashion to implement generic but efficient algorithms.
 
The notes use One : One as the unit type but tt, ff : Two for category 2 and it's wrecking my brain.
 
2:36 PM
maybe. i certianly never encountered it in games.
 
Academic scenarios are the TMP factorial and stuff. No one uses that because that's stupid.
 
@MattD So?
 
Yes, game programmers tend to have this view of "academic usage" of several things often.
 
JBL
@R.MartinhoFernandes Last time I checked it was Template Meta-Programming.
 
heh. i spent several years working in business too ;)
games was my second career in the industry
now onto my third
 
JBL
2:39 PM
With all the stuff you can do at compile-time thanks to templates.
(Though it sounds vague)
 
we certianly used templates, and generics, but never needed TMP
 
What do you mean by TMP then?
 
The use–mention distinction is a foundational concept of analytic philosophy, according to which it is necessary to make a distinction between using a word (or phrase) and mentioning it, and many philosophical works have been "vitiated by a failure to distinguish use and mention". The distinction is disputed by non-analytic philosophers. The distinction between use and mention can be illustrated for the word cheese: ;Use: Cheese is derived from milk. ;Mention: "Cheese" is derived from the Old English word "cyse". The first sentence is a statement about the substance called cheese; it uses...
 
JBL
Why the fuck am I interested by a language, and not a specific "field" like, I don't know, kernel developement, developing IAs, etc.
 
"What do you think TMP is?" vs "What do you think 'TMP' means?"
 
2:41 PM
(Not the first time someone looks at a piece of my TMP code and claims it's not TMP because it's not factorial)
 
me? when you use the preprocessor and compiler to generate solutions to problems at compile time.
 
JBL
@LucDanton Right. It was probably not useful (and should've been directly the next lines I said)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Where do you find these peope? (That I might stay away from them.)
 
@MattD TMP does not involve the preprocessor at all.
 
semantics. it still runs before the compiler
 
2:42 PM
TMP is programming on a type-level.
 
@LucDanton Happened here in the Lounge at least once. (too lazy to grep it)
 
@MattD -______-
 
@JBL Fair enough.
 
@MattD It runs as part of it.
 
LoungeChat will have a decent search engine that will make it a joy to grep stuff.
 
2:42 PM
TMP is "evaluated" as part of the compiler resolving types. Which is part of the compilation stage.
 
I, too, don't use 'TMP' to mean 'metaprogramming'.
 
JBL
What I meant was using the templates to perfom operations at compile-time, basically.
 
We're probably just gonna plug Lucene.NET in it and call it a day.
 
The preprocessor is a dumb find-and-replace tool.
 
TMP is metaprogramming :P
what other meaning could it have?
 
JBL
2:43 PM
@MattD No, it's metaprogramming thanks to templates.
 
@Insilico yup. and a powerful one at that.
alright, im confused
 
TMP can refer to any of the following: In chemistry * Thymidine monophosphate, a nucleotide * Trimethyl phosphate, a solvent * Trimethylolpropane, a precursor to polymers * 2,2,6,6-Tetramethylpiperidine, Organic Chemistry reagent * Trimethoprim, an antibiotic * Threo-methylphenidate In Engineering * Transmembrane pressure, the pressure decay between the two sides of a membrane In Information and communications technology * Template metaprogramming * Tab Mix Plus, a Mozilla Firefox extension * .tmp (typically lowercase) is the traditional name for temporary directories in the Unix director...
 
Oct 29 '12 at 7:03, by Luc Danton
Shun the copula!
 
This is what happens to Java devs:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18535643/please-can-any-one-tell-me-easiest-way-to-commit-suicide-which-will-give-no-pai
 
because when i think of TMP. i think of crazy bullshit people do with templates to calculate results to things during compilation that i cant ever think of a real world example of
not "hey im using generics and type binding at compile time"
 
2:44 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Maybe Solr, Lucene probably requires maintaining the index and stuff.
 
What sourcery is this.
Three hail marys, and 10 candles every week
 
This question appears to be off-topic because it is about suicide. — johnchen902 1 min ago
 
You know, I like this new close functionality.
 
lucene/solr is ... weird
 
2:44 PM
@sehe What am I supposed to do with the candles?
 
it does some very odd things
 
@CatPlusPlus Hmm.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes There's one vote for "too broad"
 
@MattD Nobody who uses TMP seriously uses it to do mathematical calculations.
Mostly it's about type introspection.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I would argue that it's not off-topic with a Java tag.
 
2:45 PM
@CatPlusPlus "What regex implementation library should I use to commit suicide?"
 
maybe its just solr, but it by default searches one table of the schema. which isnt very useful, unless your schema copies all the interesting fields into a "searchthisfield" field.
 
@LucDanton PCRE
 
@Insilico really?! I like to math in compile time.
 
@Insilico go tan actual example?
 
@MattD It's battle-tested.
 
2:46 PM
@MattD It's really just writing functions that operate on types rather than values.
 
@MattD I actually don't understand that question.
 
Calling things "meta" is a silly thing.
 
@MattD That's what I mean when I say "TMP factorial": using it to compute with numbers. That's stupid and I agree with you that it has no use outside of the realm of curiosity. I use TMP for computing with types. (And knowing that some people think of TMP as the first is why I always ask people what they mean by TMP).
 
@m0nhawk constexpr functions alleviate that abuse.
 
do you have a sensible example
 
2:47 PM
type_traits
 
@LucDanton C++11 is cheating here. Moreover, D was having better compile time features much earlier.
 
Aw shit, On Hold just b4 'It has a Java tag, so it's not that surprising, or off-topic for that matter.'
 
type_traits?
 
@MattD Given a variant<A, B, C>, a variant<D, E>, what should the result type of applying the polymorphic functor f of type F to the elements contained within be?
 
Type traits are ~metafunctions~.
 
@MattD yes, typical usage of SFINAE.
 
2 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
@MattD It's really just writing functions that operate on types rather than values.
 
interesting. isnt half the point of an OO language that you should neever ask something its type?
 
This is TMP. This ~metaprogramming~.
 
@LucDanton if you need lookbehind assertion then don't use std::tr1::regex with MSVC++2010
 
2:48 PM
@MattD You don't.
 
@MattD C++ is a multiparadigm language.
 
@MattD You have the types and you compute new types from them.
 
LOL! The suicide question is 'on hold as primarily opinion-based'
 
@MattD Constraining parametric polymorphism is one use.
 
(There's no typeid involved. It's templates)
 
2:49 PM
i've had too much alcohol to correctly parse that sentance
 
JBL
@MartinJames That's pretty accurate.
 
@MartinJames it's removed now.
 
A nifty thing type_traits allow you to do is to make algorithms that are generic but efficient for all types.
 
how so?
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: A metachatroom. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [no-questions]
 
2:50 PM
by using explicit specification?
 
Let's say you have a std::vector<T>.
 
std::is_efficient<T>
 
@MattD That's one tool, yes.
 
JBL
In the light of this discussion, I think another interesting question would be "Is C++ without TMP worth it ?"
 
2:50 PM
If you know T is a plain old data type, you can copy the bytes around using something like memcpy instead of a for-loop. This makes std::vector<int> more efficient.
 
@jbl yes :)
 
@MattD Simpler example: I write template<typename T> ??? dereference(T const& pointer) { return *pointer; }, what should the return type be? What if I want to support smart pointers?
 
as its quite obvious i write very different code to you guys
just a different way of looking at things
 
JBL
@MattD What for then ?
 
Not using parametric polymorphism is a good way to end up with tons of boilerplate.
 
2:51 PM
someone's gotta show that boilerplate some love
 
depends. i still use polymorphism where it fits
 
Where can I find the documentation for the Coliru API?
 
And not constraining parametric polymorphism is a good way to end up with tons of unhelpful errors.
 
@MattD 12:50 AM in Brisbane, OK, I guess you're entitled to be pissed now. Here in UK, I cannot start on the beer for another 4 hrs :(
 
:D
i tend to be more in the DOD direction than OO
 
2:52 PM
:words:
 
Dead On Delivery?
 
@MattD DOD?
 
(I need :acronyms:)
 
@ShuklaSannidhya In the code! (You probably want to ping @StackedCrooked)
 
data oriented design
 
2:52 PM
Coliru API is POST to /compile
The end.
 
wasn't it POST to shell? :p
 
i dont really see the world in terms of generics.
 
DOD is a recent buzzword gamedevs use to justify their ugly, badly designed code.
2
 
but hey. its something i need to spend more time with
oh snap :D
it actually makes a lot of sense for the kinds of problems we hit in game development
it may not make a lot of sense for other problems
 
Yes, we know all about how game development is special.
 
2:54 PM
@CatPlusPlus Sounds more like SQL to me :(
 
JBL
@MattD Interesting, I'd have supposed that precisely in something called DOD, you would have.
 
@MattD Make your case.
 
i wouldnt say special. just a different solution space
 
@CatPlusPlus Is that on the tail-end of the 'array of struct, struct of array' thing? Perhaps programming everything as if you were programming a GPU?
 
@LucDanton Yeah, something like that.
 
2:55 PM
(I'm not being an ass, I'm genuinely interested in how DOD can actually solve problems, if it actually does that)
 
@MattD That's more or less what 'special' means.
 
ok. games have the advantage that we deal with known data.
 
...as opposed to what
 
@Insilico Because they insist on using languages with strict data layout, which compiler cannot transform to improve cache usage, they invented a new paradigm that's based on optimising cache usage.
 
How does cppreference embed snippets from coliru and run compile/run them? I thought it was an iframe but it is not...
 
2:55 PM
@MattD OK, I'll have to think about that, for a bit.
 
we can make assumptions on our data, beacuse we already know what the data is. we're not trying to write a framework.
 
Yes, most other programs have no clue about the data they deal with.
 
@CatPlusPlus Eh :s Seems kinda in the vein of those tricks for GCed languages to keep the GC at bay.
 
It's really just manual reordering of data layouts.
 
as far as things like DOD. a lot of our systems end up being bulk processing. take for example particles. as the classic case. the OO approach is to give each particle state and virtual functions. which tails off badly in terms of performance. the DOD approach is to move state to the particle system, and sort the data based on the behaviors we aply to it
 
2:57 PM
@CatPlusPlus What should be the parameter?
 
so, all particles that move a certain way get updated in one go. using SOA fun times
 
:acronyms: :acronyms: :acronyms:
 
:| back to reading
 
It's not "OO approach" to give each particle state and virtual functions, it's silly approach.
 
It sounds a lot like something that could benefit from TMP. (looking at some slides now)
 
2:58 PM
Are we discussing my particles? :D
 
you'd be surprised. ask anyone to write a prticle system and you'll get particles with virtual functions
 
Though those slides suck because explicit loops.
 
Yes, there are bad programmers. Surprise.
 
@MattD Stop recruiting/working with anyone.
 
@EtiennedeMartel: Yeah, for number crunching Fortran still pretty much rules (at least AFAIK). With sufficient trickiness and the best available compiler, C++ can be fairly competitive, but it's a lot more work and rarely does more than just about keep up.
 
2:59 PM
if only i got to make those decisions
 
Fortran is prevalent in scientific stuff.
 
@LucDanton burninate them, of course!
 

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