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4:00 PM
@BartekBanachewicz And that you get that checked everywhere, every single time, without thinking about it, without spending time finding all references to all things you ever change in your program which would slow you down to a crawl.
 
so instead of looking at "find references" you look at "errors"
@R.MartinhoFernandes no, find all references is much faster than running the build and getting the error log
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's passive and automated and exhaustive.
@BartekBanachewicz Do you run it for every single change you make?
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes: Thinking about the overloaded member name thing: If we change them to C-style form execute(A*) and execute(B*), yeah, if overloading wasn't there, you'd also notice the break.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you don't repeat neither
 
Repeat what?
 
4:01 PM
building/finding
 
If you think grepping is a good substitute for having the compiler type check for you... Gosh why am I even here.
6
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes let's compare "look at usage of foo, check if it's ok" vs "look at build error, check if use is ok"
 
@BartekBanachewicz ARgh.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes no, I think that in most cases the change shouldn't even be necessary. thus the amount of the places where you have to fix would be much less than the amount of the places that don't need fixing
@R.MartinhoFernandes calm down.
 
It's "change something; check all places; ok, it's all fine; change something else; check all places; ok it's still all fine; change some more; check all places; yep, still fine" vs "change something; compile; change something else; compile; change some;"
 
Xeo
4:03 PM
@BartekBanachewicz The former is optional
The latter not
 
@Xeo it's only optional if you're dumb
 
To be clear "check all places" being a manual process makes it time consuming, and it doesn't scale well (the bigger the project, the more places to check).
 
@BartekBanachewicz what the fuck is up with your compiler?
 
seriously, I don't need a compiler to tell me that if I make a breaking change, I should verify it won't break anything
 
@BartekBanachewicz hahahaha. never hiring you.
 
4:04 PM
@BartekBanachewicz How do you know it's breaking?
(Hint: you can't always tell)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes pretty much any change, really.
 
superBartek needs no stinkin' compiler to tell him where his code faults lie
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh gawd, you're terrible.
 
his legacy and/or team-built 100k LOC code base needs no tools for validation
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes for knowing that I should know what I am doing? That's great news.
 
4:05 PM
You seriously manually check everything everywhere everytime you change something?
 
ITT when you know you should check the impact of the change you're terrible and would never be hired
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It doesn't even have to be legacy. As soon as it's not all in one person's head, his process is flawed already.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Indeed
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes no, because my code is generic and will adapt to whatever I throw at it or not compile.
5
 
(And even in one-man projects it's not all in one person's head; hard drives are too convenient)
 
4:06 PM
@BartekBanachewicz ITT when you're a god awful software developer you should never be hired
 
@BartekBanachewicz The point is that you never get anything done because you spend so much time checking (or you get bored and you don't; not sure which is worse). Why would you not want to automate the process?
 
@BartekBanachewicz It will adapt by erasing your hard drive. Whoops.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you gave no arguments on why my approach is inherently better than yours
 
@BartekBanachewicz There aren't any.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's not automating anything
 
4:07 PM
@BartekBanachewicz A compiler contains an automated type checker.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit then stop insulting me
 
Let's go back to school
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not insulting you. You are wrong.
 
1 min ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
@BartekBanachewicz ITT when you're a god awful software developer you should never be hired
 
@BartekBanachewicz I honestly think that should go in Tony's parody Twitter account.
 
@BartekBanachewicz If you think you're a god awful software developer then that's your opinion...
 
4:08 PM
Really, going to every place where the change happens and going to every place where change breaks build is pretty much fucking the same
You still have to look at each place it's impacting.
for fucks sake.
 
You can't afford that.
Not manually.
 
apparently you can afford fixing build.
which is pretty much going to every place the type changes.
 
What does "fixing build" mean?
 
A a = foo()
@R.MartinhoFernandes that it will break, no?
that was the desired outcome of yours IIRC
 
@BartekBanachewicz Ok, let's get this straight: both processes are time consuming if there's a breaking change. Do you agree?
 
4:10 PM
whistles
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes of course. Except mine is slightly less time consuming in typical scenarios.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I disagree with that, but I have no idea how we could reach and agreement about it, so I'll just ignore it for the sake of making my point.
 
Your process is time consuming even if it turns out the change is not breaking. Agree?
 
this is so much more successful than "fuck space indentation"
 
4:12 PM
define not breaking
you've changed the return type of the function.
 
If the code is still working (theoretically "all invariants still hold" but pick a practical definition of "working" instead) without further change.
 
your code (explicit types) will never work without further change if you change return type of a function and change only that function
am I right?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Your process doesn't use explicit types (or "prefers" auto if you want).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'd glance at the list of usages of foo to get an overview, and look at them closer if I suspected breaking change
 
Ok, we're done.
Compilers don't "glance" at things.
 
4:15 PM
okey, elaborate.
you've made a trivial change from A to B.
you get 80 build errors. (80 usages of foo). What do you do?
 
The compiler always suspects breaking changes and always looks as closely as it can at things.
@BartekBanachewicz I don't care about that example anymore.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes no, please tell me, I do care about that example.
 
"trivial change" lol
 
@BartekBanachewicz I am thinking about any kind of change.
 
a signature change is not fucking "trivial"
 
4:17 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit std::string to myownstring
 
@BartekBanachewicz you think that's "trivial"?
All it takes is for myownstring.empty() to mean "empty the string" instead of "is the string empty?" and you just fucked yourself over, potentially.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit assume myownstring is compliant with std::string interface and simply has SBO
 
@BartekBanachewicz I can assume that until the cows come home but it doesn't help me maintain QA on my codebase.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit then I know it beforehand.
 
4:18 PM
@BartekBanachewicz lol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you still didn't answer me
 
I don't know if you're just inexperienced or way overconfident.
 
we were talking about auto, and suddenly it's "any kind of change"
@R.MartinhoFernandes FYI: I am using the compiler to verify partial correctness of my code.
I am just disagreeing with explicit typing being panaceum for all problems involved with changing something, return type in particular
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm done with the auto. I find your "grepping is better than type checking" approach more worrying.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It always was that. The fact that you didn't realise that is proof positive of auto's false sense of security.
 
4:20 PM
("worrisome"?)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes (either)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it was only for the purpose of type substitution. You know perfectly well that I write type-safe code with static checks.
 
@BartekBanachewicz At least tell me you indent your code using tabs.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I am saying that what you see as "false sense of security" is simply "more genericity" for me, because I am perfectly aware of the danger
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I stopped because people writing editors can't display them properly
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's exactly what someone lulled into a false sense of security would say!
 
4:22 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't expect any security gain from removing auto from my code.
 
Can I just state for the record that my usual "stop flagging every fucking thing Martinho says you bloody nihilistic robot-worshipping retards" is suspended this evening, since he keeps making excellent points.
 
basically if the change affects something, the build will break a line below, on static check or usage
 
Ah, dammit, I was sure "I am perfectly aware of the danger" were someone's last words.
They are, but of a fictional character :(
 
@BartekBanachewicz Funny, since I gave you a counter-example of that almost an hour ago. Or on usage, sure. Too late then, though. My customer's already pissed off and taking his business to my competitor.
 
auto a = foo();
static_assert(std::is_pod<decltype(a)>::value, "you suck");
 
4:24 PM
lol
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit "build breaking on usage", fammit, means "the line where a is used"
 
@BartekBanachewicz How so?
@BartekBanachewicz Okay, well, I gave you a counter-example of that fucking ages ago.
 
@BartekBanachewicz You cannot test if empty() empties or tests for empty with something like that. (overloaded names are hell)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit inconsistent display across shitty tools I use .
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz That looks sooo fabricated.
 
4:25 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Configure them better. Code is not about how characters are prettified on your My Little Pony computer monitor
 
Man, I love that sentence.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I can't configure everything to everything
@Xeo is it bad?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, you can.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit good luck with online github viewer
 
I like how it uses overloaded "test" and "empty" (or variants) all over.
 
4:26 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I don't use the online github viewer. If it cannot handle indentation, it requires fixing.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Pfff. one would return bool
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that's what I am talking about all the time
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yo dawg
@BartekBanachewicz I don't know what you're talking about half the time
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes "test" is not really overloaded in that sentence
 
@BartekBanachewicz Maybe empty() returns a bool saying if it deleted anything.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I am so tempted to reply "you suck at listening then" to this; unfortunately it's not true and I suck at explaining
 
4:27 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Indeed. Furthermore, s/,/;/
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes <hits the wall with his head>
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes But it wouldn't be marked const!
 
tadaaaa!
 
@Xeo Doesn't make a difference to auto
 
Xeo
cue as_const(v).empty();
 
4:27 PM
It's not at all unheard of (and you should not be attaching yourself to the example)
 
yeah, uh. that's a particularly malicious example
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I always forget that my sarcasm doesn't work very well if only expressed through an exclamation mark.
 
The point is that C++ only lets you test for names.
 
Xeo
Oh, wasn't on purpose?
 
4:29 PM
And that's exactly what the compiler tests anyway, so your static assertions won't get you much.
 
$ git diff
- IAmACoolClass foo();
+ IAmABatshitDiskDeleter foo();
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I really only use it for sarcasm in chats. I think.
 
looks totally legit ^
 
There might be a misunderstanding: premium @NeinQuarterly content doesn't mean more tweets, but less.
 
let's talk about voxels instead
 
4:32 PM
> In fact there could be 3 distinct proposals:
1- Fixed size parameter packs (everything in your original post)
2- Pack aliases
3- Chaining packs, or "packs of packs" (this one would build on features of the two previous proposals)
 
wtf my DNS has gone down fuck fuck
 
My pecs have pecs!
 
what's that?
 
From the Asylum.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit abort abort
@R.MartinhoFernandes foo (int...... i);
 
4:33 PM
#2 would be nice indeed.
It is effectively syntax sugar for tuples, though.
 
that doesn't sound that bad
 
I dislike more syntax without large gains attached.
 
damn, reminds me I still have to implement tuple returns in Lundi :/
@R.MartinhoFernandes agreed.
crap, Lundi needs another TMP versed dev
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes I just want pack indexing and better unpacking :(
 
@Xeo template<class Arg... a> void foo (Arg[0] a, Arg[1] b) ? ;)
 
4:37 PM
Ah, found it. Here's what I think of most syntax sugar proposals I see: coliru.stacked-crooked.com/…
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes what the fuck is going on
also we've scared a newcomer off with our rambling
we suck.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Basically, adding new syntax for C++ may look sweet and convenient but is bound to drive me crazy.
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz foo(bar(pack1[n], pack2[m])...$n)...$m)
 
The Law of C++ Syntactic Sugar: it cannot be both consistent and universal.
 
Xeo
Also, I liked Richard's operator.... If only he made a proper proposal on it :(
 
4:41 PM
I should go home and start working on sample port
I had that idea, pirate liked it, I wonder what you think
Basically I want to look at alternative wrappers, copy their samples and adapt to GLDR (and maybe for Lundi too)
and then show how our API is superior
 
I'M BACK
 
hi there
 
Me too
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You have a link to the question?
 
@CatPlusPlus ...and there was much rejoicing
 
4:46 PM
@ThePhD Wot
 
it's amazing how I am having fps drop 30>3 with a blur effect @Ell
 
Needs more bloom.
 
@CatPlusPlus it's javascript
 
20 secs ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Needs more bloom.
 
should I add anything? :P
 
4:47 PM
posted on July 26, 2013

This week, I'd like to take a step back and discuss why moving instead of copying is worth doing in the first place.

 
Yes, bloom.
 
it's not my code
 
@Feeds A post about classical physics?
 
Ell
Is blur in the fragment shader?
 
You killed the joke, congratulations.
 
4:48 PM
if my code was to run at web it would be asm.js
@Ell I have no idea
 
@Ell probably
 
TIL that you can do #L10-L20 on github to highlight a line range
 
Ell
I killed the joke?
 
5
Q: god doesn't stop unicorn

Luiz E.I have this file rails_env = ENV['RAILS_ENV'] || 'development' rails_root = ENV['RAILS_ROOT'] || "/home/luiz/rails_dev/api" God.watch do |w| w.name = "unicorn" w.interval = 30.seconds # default # unicorn needs to be run from the rails root w.start = "cd #{rails_root} && unicorn_rails -...

 
> canvas.classList.add('blurred')
I'm out.
 
4:50 PM
@BartekBanachewicz oh. web stuff.
no idea then :p
 
lol I got "nice answer" on meta
 
> We're moving from unicorn to puma (not because this question, it's a performance thing), and not going to use god anymore...
And people give me strange looks about the naming of my projects.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes thx!
 
@Mysticial yeah one sec
fuck me my nameserver is completely unreachable from outside - it's running though!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit robot beat you to it :)
 
4:54 PM
backup NS unresponsive too (I think), so I blame the VPS provider
 
that's pretty hilarious... how many people were telling him he needed more info?
 
@Mysticial I added "I wouldn't like to need to test the code 50 times in different places and spend hours dealing with cocky idiots on Stack Overflow if it happened to me" to my last comment on it, but took it out a second later because it sounded too dickish.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes aha
 
Hi.
I'm just leaving.
 
must be.
 
5:08 PM
i still love you
 
@ScottW Probably just doesn't understand you.
I'm just leaving.
 
can anyone here resolve lolphin.com ?
 
I was kiding ;)
 
@Chemistpp hello
you should teach me something today! :)
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf ok, let me think about something
@LightnessRacesinOrbit nope, no resolution for me.
 
5:10 PM
oh god java is so slow T_T
 
this is badddd
got multiple services, about six domains and a ton of email accounts going through that nameserver, yet the primary and both secondaries are completely unreachable
I should find myself some off-site slave DNS really
 
user142019
@sehe Plus milk is also good.
 
user142019
Same factory, probably.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that ... how do you do that
no backups?
 
5:13 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit YOU SHOULD HAVE CAME WITH US TONY IS SO COOL. :D
 
user142019
@R.MartinhoFernandes "God" kinda makes sense here. "Unicorn" is just random though.
 
@ThePhD .......
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf I think the host has routing issues or something
 
i see tony is still alive. did DeadMG fail?
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf two backups. the problem is, they're both provided by the host.
 
5:14 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ......
 
I'm not here for long, but thought you guys might enjoy this
(Despite it not being C++)
 
Yes, it's really great.
 
user142019
Imagine somebody wrote this question and you read it. What would you do? Indeed, you would also post this comment. — rightfold 1 min ago
 
got in to the server through its IP at least
[root@lolphin:~] $ nslookup google.com
;; connection timed out; trying next origin
Server:         10.1.3.21
Address:        10.1.3.21#53

** server can't find google.com: NXDOMAIN
oh yeah, definitely the host's fault! fuck me
 
Xeo
@TonyTheLion So, did the puppy show up?
 
user142019
5:25 PM
inb4 no
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol. that is a successful server. why not just use one of the free DNS's open?
 
@Xeo The puppy we're meeting tomo at 1pm
 
Because free DNSes are shit?
 
no google is pretty good
 
@DeadMG Psssst, Tony is awesome, you should come. <3
 
5:27 PM
<3
We need @ScottW <3
 
@ScottW You should come here!
 
Xeo
@TonyTheLion ah
 
He has problem with an authoritative DNS, not a cache. You can run a damn cache locally.
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf Doesn't really help the other way around does it
I've simply proven that the fault is with my host, not my config
Which is sort of a mixed blessing really
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit no it doesn't help anyone trying to resolve to you ofc. hmm :L you can call them and ask if they would mind broadcasting your records though - unlikely of course
 
5:29 PM
@EiyrioüvonKauyf Naturally I set my domain TTL to 1h
derp
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit oh :L. low ttl's are nice though
 
I'd meant to set that back to 48h after I was happy with the last update
for now it means that even if they broadcast, it wouldn't last long.
 
doesn't matter
 
Besides there's obviously some larger fault at work
 
Low TTLs just mean more traffic.
 
5:30 PM
clients will round robin around all your ip's
@CatPlusPlus also means higher uptime in cause of faults like his
 
Round Robin DNS & DDNS is a technique of load distribution, load balancing, or fault-tolerance provisioning multiple, redundant Internet Protocol service hosts, e.g., Web servers, FTP servers, by managing the Domain Name System's (DNS) responses to address requests from client computers according to an appropriate statistical model. In its simplest implementation Round-robin DNS works by responding to DNS requests not only with a single IP address, but a list of IP addresses of several servers that host identical services. The order in which IP addresses from the list are returned is the ...
 
What does that have to do with it?
 
wait shit you mean your DNS caching. nvm ~ gghf
 
What are you on about
 
5:31 PM
my authoritative nameservers -- primaries and secondaries -- are all unreachable
 
ohh .... yeah have fun with that and get a better / different secondary host / alternative
 
I should have set up a secondary DNS with a secondary provider for better redundancy. even if I did that quickly now, my domain provider is being shit on letting me change my NS config
 
New NS records would have to propagate first. Plus, NXDOMAINs are cached, too.
Also you need a new domain provider. :v:
 
Or for them to fix their config system
But yes you're right on both counts really
 
@ThePhD Thanks, but I require females to come in.
 
5:35 PM
OVH is not that bad as a domain provider.
Pretty cheap and they have redundant DNSes with full control over the records.
 
If these guys are still down tonight I'll probably move everything
I'm a little concerned by the lack of response to my emergency support ticket. The host has been great in the past and have a flying reputation, but I wonder whether something's happened to them
 
Maybe you don't pay them enough.
What's the host?
 
I pay them plenty
clustered.net
Also, if their DNS is broken maybe it's broken their ticket system >.< No phone support number any more, I notice
 
^ sketchy
 
Seems to be getting that way *sigh*
I can't stay tonight and monitor the situation, either
 
5:44 PM
@ScottW oh baby <3
 
OVH's VPS Classic 4 looks good
I'll buy it and restore from backups when I get home tonight, if this still isn't resolved. Probably involves downtime over the weekend, but, well can't be helped perhaps
potentially involves lost mail though :(
anyway, sorry, you don't care
 
OVH has cheaper dedicated servers than VPSes.
Don't ask me how that works.
 
Does it?
huh, weird
 
And woop, they got even cheaper.
KS16G was not that cheap yesterday.
 
Ell
5:55 PM
think think thinkkkkk
 
@Ell about what
 
@BartekBanachewicz Coffee is horrible. D:
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I want to write a bot :D
And I need image detection thing
 
@Ell for what
@Ell OpenCL
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz Puzzle Pirates
 
5:56 PM
@Ell what
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I want to write it in c#
@BartekBanachewicz The game.
 
@Ell OpenCL
 
Then write it in C#.
 
Ell
they have c# bindings?
 
Ell
5:57 PM
oh, so they do
 
So you faced reimplementing that shit without problem, but doing some research was too hard?
What's wrong with you people.
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz No
 
@ThePhD we already know you suck
 
Fuck coffee.
Tea is where it's at.
 
Ell
Both suck
 
5:58 PM
Both are cool.
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I want to reimplement something
 
@Ell OIC
I thought about reimplementing Elemental demo
 
Ell
Coming up with something yourself is much more challenging and interesting imho
 
Hint: Coming up with something is not exactly the same as reimplementing.
 

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