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3:00 PM
@Alex yup
 
@BartekBanachewicz GWEN? :o
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit FYI, I am not listening to these noises
 
@thecoshman Why not?
 
@Magtheridon96 that's a GUI library from the creator of Gary's Mod
I've heard some nice things about it
it's on GH, you might want to look at it
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit see any previous rage about the plink noise
 
3:03 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Certainly, but I feel there would still be much I wouldn't know about. Of course, though, I don't really know how shaders work, either.
 
@Pawnguy7 creating a triangle is easy-peasy. And even the most complicated models are made from simple triangles :)
 
Morning
 
I could use a guinea pig tester for GLDR anyway
 
afternoon
 
oh welcome @Simon
 
3:06 PM
hi there @BartekBanachewicz
I came to find other people that dream in C++ too
 
first hint - you can edit your posts by pressing the up arrow
 
@thecoshman The whole point is that I gave you links to nice alternatives. Your opinion would be appreciated.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't care for alternatives, I don'y want a noise at all
 
that's better thanks
 
@thecoshman turn your fucking speakers off then
 
3:08 PM
just like Skype in the old days when you could press the up arrow
 
@SimonBosley still can, son
 
@SimonBosley you can do it in new version alright
 
it's been a while I presumed MS would have ruined it by now :-)
 
I literally just did it a minute ago.
 
except in skype it only works for one message IIRC
 
3:08 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah but you can edit older ones with right-click mouse
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit pff
 
@BartekBanachewicz yes, you are
 
Xeo
Only if it's not too old
 
what are people's favourite features of the new C++11 specification?
 
15 minutes I think
 
3:09 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ¬_¬ if that point was travelling at lethal speeds, it's a good job you missed it.
 
@SimonBosley It comes as a PDF.
 
@BartekBanachewicz beyond that openGl tutorial you recommended - if I recall, you said it was more of the concepts - do you know of any specific 2.1 ones?
 
Xeo
@SimonBosley auto
Also, "new" is a bit exaggerated - it's already 2 years old!
 
@thecoshman good job it missed me
s/new/newest/
auto is not all that
 
Xeo
There is only one C++11 specification
 
3:10 PM
2 years old IS new for C++ lol
 
takes away some of your type safety, yo
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit wat
 
@Xeo oops, s/new C++11/newest C++/
@Xeo you change a type in file A. you don't notice in file B because you used auto. semantics changes. well fuck me your program is broken and you didn't even notice
 
yes can using auto ever be ambiguous between compilers?
 
@SimonBosley not compliant ones, no
 
Xeo
3:11 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That's a bad argument.
 
@Xeo no, it's not.
 
Xeo
And I'd elaborate on that, if I didn't have to leave now
Later o/
 
@SimonBosley what? It's old
 
It's precisely the same argument as "use std::fill instead of memset"
 
s/s/s//
well fuck
 
3:12 PM
@Xeo I'll take it from here
@LightnessRacesinOrbit the thing is, you change the type and it still works
 
We had a bunch of guys spend a week tracking down a bug, that turned out to be caused by someone memset'ing a std::vector (I think a reinterpret_cast<char*> was also involved). See, it hadn't always been a std::vector, but the lack of explicit type information there meant the change wasn't flagged up at the site of memset. It just silently carried on [not] "working".
Same damn thing with auto.
@BartekBanachewicz No, not necessarily.
Functions with the same names can be called; that doesn't mean it works, or does as you intended.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that's not the auto. that's being retarded
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, and auto promotes retardedness.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit tests should catch bug introduced in your scenario
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No it's not. You willingly gave up type-safety through casting type-information away.
 
3:14 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Tests should catch UB? Are you fucking high?
 
@BartekBanachewicz you could also use type traits instead of auto. if you just want the it still works if you change the type. and it might break if you start changing something from reference to non reference as auto would need to change to auto& so it's not always working
 
@Xeo auto basically does that. At least lexically.
 
I guess unit tests would help in those scenarios
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit auto promotes genericity (again, working with everything, not breaking everything)
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Templates would like a word with you.
 
3:14 PM
auto is a feature introduced to deliberately remove from your function calls the guarantee that the type you're operating on is the type you think it is. I don't give a fuck if you think that only one type could ever possibly use that function name: you're wrong
 
Xeo
But more on that at 10
 
@Alex but it's still easier
 
@Xeo I have similar issues with those, but at least there when you write a template you KNOW you're going to get instantiations with different types. You used templates with that express desire.
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Easy solution: Don't care about types.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit with auto you simply don't care
 
3:15 PM
That's not the case with auto.
 
that is.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, and when you don't care, you don't spot that you just broke your program.
More to the point, since when was C++ about hiding things from the programmer? It's a paradigm shift.
 
@BartekBanachewicz i guess it's even recommended to use auto. I don't know what the c++1y people are planning to do. but they might require some proxy classes and they hope for people to use auto from what i get.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that's not the fault of auto
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, it is. That it its express purpose.
 
Xeo
3:16 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Abstractions are all about hiding things from the programmer
 
@Alex we know what "C++1y people" are trying to do, FYI
 
@Xeo Hiding lower-level things. Not fundamental constructs on the same layer of abstraction.
C++ abstracting away the type system is retarded - it's there and exposed to the programmer for fucking good reason
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit its purpose is saying "I don't care about the type as long as it fits"
@LightnessRacesinOrbit and auto is there for another fucking good reason
 
@BartekBanachewicz It may fit syntactically. It may not fit semantically. A::foo is not necessarily the same thing as B::foo. Think of that? And you won't notice that your function call to foo is now to the latter rather than the former. Well, fuck...
 
@BartekBanachewicz we know SOME things they are trying to do.
 
3:17 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit then your template checks suck
 
@BartekBanachewicz Who the hell is talking about templates?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit then do decltype :)
 
@Alex The same problem...
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Dude, templates did exactly that for a long time.
 
@Xeo I addressed that already.
 
3:18 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit anyway, the whole point of auto is that A::foo is different from B::foo
 
Xeo
And you addressed it inadequately - why do you think you always know you're dealing with a template?
 
it's up to you to return something that will fail compilation on bad usage
 
It seems the "newest" standard is causing widespread division amongst the C++ community here
 
@SimonBosley well it's still much much better than C++03
 
there is a difference between I don't want to write the type down or we abstract away the typing system. type checking is still done everywhere and if it's not its type deduction. and you can still use explicit typing nobody is forcing you to adapt to the sutter style.
 
3:19 PM
struct A { void execute() { std::cout << ":-)\n"; } }; struct B { void execute() { system("rm -rf /"); } }; A foo() { return A(); } /** Elsewhere... */ int main() { auto obj = foo(); foo.execute(); } // when I change foo to return a B, I don't get any compilation error in main; I get hell in a fucking handbasket, and it's all your fault.
It's as simple as that.
 
lol, widespread
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit no, you returned B
 
@BartekBanachewicz Right, so now I have to write a fucked-up API that will deliberately cause errors, because I threw away the type checks that used to do that for me. Sure, that's making things easier.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I have no fucking idea how would you expect "I changed behaviour of a function, but the compiler should now it's not what I want"
because it's not about the type at all
 
Xeo
Whatever, Lightness is a manifest-typing advocate it seems. No use arguing against that.
 
3:21 PM
@Xeo How else could you have an uncertainty regarding the type?
 
but the example he posted is totally not about types
 
I thought C++03 was just a bug fix for C++98?
 
@BartekBanachewicz With int main() { A obj = foo(); ... } it would know it's not what you want.
 
@Xeo "You have an opinion, so there's no use arguing against it" is great logic. But, sure, you're not going to change my mind!
@SimonBosley It was.
 
I guess I still think of that as C++98
 
3:21 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Er, A obj = foo(); obj.execute(); Y'know, programming?
 
that's a different line from auto obj
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's what you would do if you didn't use auto.
 
Yes, A is not the same as auto. I'm aware of that. That is my point...
 
Why are you comparing auto with auto?
 
3:22 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes or template on A
 
@BartekBanachewicz T obj = foo(); still breaks if foo changes.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit my point is that auto is for situations you apparently don't encounter because you don't use generic programming
A a is Java.
 
Type safety is safety for the program and safety for the programmer, and auto says "hey! use me! don't worry about the fact that I take away your safety for the programmer! nothing will go wrong; I promise!"
 
auto obj = foo(); never breaks.
(Well, make it auto&& obj = foo(); to avoid thinking of moves)
 
I think the point of auto is that your code keeps working if somebody changes types. your example is a bit weird. if somebody would just rename struct A to struct B you'd be also quite pissed to see it AFTER execution.
 
3:23 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Whut
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
@BartekBanachewicz auto when you're using templates already I don't have a problem with at all. You lose nothing
 
@BartekBanachewicz Erm, no.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yes, you do. You lose the same thing.
 
OK ladies and gentleman... how about another feature apart from auto?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit when there's only one type in the world that will fit in the context, then spell it out.
 
3:24 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes It could be posited that, if your template args are inferred, the problem was already there in your expression before you started using auto. Not in precisely the same example, but...
 
(if you can force yourselves away from it for a moment)
 
@BartekBanachewicz Right, and then it won't matter at all, because you'll hide it away with your stupid lazy auto.
@SimonBosley It has lots of pages. I like that.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit no. I use auto when there's more than one type that would fit
is it that hard?
 
@BartekBanachewicz foo may only return an object of one type.
 
@Simon soo Template aliases are pretty cool
 
3:25 PM
the question is, what type?!
 
I use auto for iterators and the return type of std::bind and friends
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit but I can change foo to something else in the future. And as long as I choose something that fits, it's ok.
 
@Magtheridon96 same - where the type is clear from the initialiser expression then it's fine
 
pages are good! @LightnessRacesinOrbit as long as they're not blank
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit the one that will compile in place of the one that was used previously
 
3:26 PM
@BartekBanachewicz No, it's not okay. Did you even read my example? You just erased your hard drive.
@BartekBanachewicz That's the problem...
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit your example was particularly retarded, because it didn't really introduce a new callback type, only new behaviour.
 
@BartekBanachewicz What..?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I was thinking coliru.stacked-crooked.com/… vs coliru.stacked-crooked.com/… /cc @Bartek
 
I don't need any "callback type". It's a simple fucking example.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit the same problem would occur if you used polymorphism and created a bad object that implements the interface
you spelled out the type of the interface allright, but the disk is still erased
 
3:27 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Good example.
 
because you changed behaviour
 
@BartekBanachewicz That there are other ways of getting the same bad thing doesn't make it any good.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Correct. auto adds another way to easily fall into that shittrap, and it's a lot easier than going ahead and creating a whole new type and then knowingly instantiating it. Now, all you need is to change one innocent little function, and not remember that it was being used somewhere, underneath the silent farty cloak of auto.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes. And I want breaking changes to break as soon as possible.
 
Do all bad programs end up erasing your hard drive?
 
3:28 PM
auto is for things where a different type will be able to substitute the other
 
I'm going to read Bjarne and see what he says about auto
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes thank you - that's what I wanted to say.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit if you change type A, you have to take everything A did into consideration
 
auto bartek = foo(); bartek.execute(); I hope it's B
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, I do. And that's a lot harder when the compiler won't help me out with error messages. That's my point.
 
@BartekBanachewicz And I like it when the compiler helps me think about that.
 
3:29 PM
I mean, FFS, you had A foo () { }. if you return B instead, B should fit everywhere A fits.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit then use template trait checks to verify that B is fullfilling its duty of A-ishness
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, sure, or I could just write A a = foo(); like a normal fucking human being
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes compiler can never assist you in defining proper application logic
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, it can. That's what a type system is for.
 
@BartekBanachewicz They can - that's what the type system does.
 
hehe, same second.
 
3:31 PM
It's like the youth of today need to destroy the type system then re-invent it at a higher level. It's totally NIH.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit like a Java n00b, that is.
 
Maybe they're jealous that they didn't invent it.
@R.MartinhoFernandes high five!
 
WTF does Java have to do with it?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit it's totally not about destroying anything and reinventing anything
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's coming close to being about destroying your face young man
 
3:32 PM
I think it's totally about you missing the point.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you're too far to do it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm right outside.
 
I use auto all over the place, way more than I should.
But I totally know why Lightness doesn't like it.
 
And IYAM I think it's a perfectly valid and tenable position.
 
3:33 PM
I still think it's a dumb argumentation.
 
It's just one of those things -- C++ going in what I perceive to be the wrong direction. I'm not saying it has no valid uses.
 
Ell
I thought type inference was all the rage
 
I am not saying you should always use auto
I am saying that bashing it like you do is fucking dumb
 
@Ell For some you have to take "rage" literally for that assertion to be true
 
I also stated in particular when you should NOT use auto
 
3:34 PM
I was merely stating its downside. No need to go mental
 
and I consider your bollocks about "bad direction", well, bollocks
it's not like you have to use auto.
 
you're so homofixated today
@BartekBanachewicz No, but my colleagues may be tempted to. And then they have another easy way to cause me and my friends problems.
 
Ell
giggle
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I can't stand people saying "X used feature Y in a bad way, therefore Y is bad"
 
@Ell I like it, and I want it smeared all over my liver, but in a world where overloading all names is fair game it has pitfalls.
 
3:35 PM
X is fucking dumb, and that should be said.
it's not a fault of the hammer.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Nor can I and I wouldn't claim that. But there is a threshold. At a certain point you say "this is just fucking irresponsible, and it makes things more error-prone under the guise of a false security."
 
there's no false security
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes again, you put it better than I there
 
(As an example, these problems don't exist in Haskell because there is no way to overload names)
 
if you use a feature, you should know what you are doing
 
3:36 PM
@BartekBanachewicz What? Yes, there is. Please re-read the conversation, and get it this time.
 
if you are not, it's your fault
 
I didn't claim otherwise.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit your conception of "false" is borked then
 
But when the language makes it easier for me to make a fucking critical mistake, it's doing a disservice.
I mean, my real problem is not that auto exists but that it exists and people want to use it in situations like those. Those situations where they really don't need to.
The standard isn't at fault so much as lazy dipshit script kiddies like you. :)
No offence
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I call bullshit at that alone.
 
3:38 PM
@BartekBanachewicz <3
 
;____;
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I agree that the fact that stupid people exist is annoying.
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Okay, lemme try again, having arrived at home now
 
chivalry arrived!
 
3:39 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I have field experience on this; I have used var in C# since 2008, and you get the same issues there (maybe not as bad, though, since there aren't as many free conversions and shit around).
 
@Xeo As much as I'd love to hear your opinion on this topic, I kinda feel like I've done it to death now :(
 
Ell
Oooh we could have browser based minecraft :3 voxeljs.com
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes C++JavascriptEdition
 
@Ell too slow.
 
Xeo
First, on the template thing - I didn't mean on the implementation side.
 
3:40 PM
@Ell that splash screen isn't begging for it at all
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz naah
 
> voxel.js games require a computer that can run WebGL, the HTML5 3D graphics engine. Visit get.webgl.org to see if your current browser supports it. Chrome version 23 or above or Firefox version 17 or above are recommended.
"OMG! Chrome 23 and Firefox 17! I must be in the far future!" No wait it's just the fart future. Retards
 
Ell
It works for me :L
 
Xeo
How is auto v = foo(); x.execute(); differen't from template<class T> void execute(T v){ v.execute(); } execute(foo());?
 
@Ell I guess you know better
@Ell aight.
 
3:41 PM
@Ell your internet browsing is like a lag 5 of mine lol
 
@Xeo It's not.
 
Xeo
That was my point about the templates.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Well, now that I found the start of the discussion, he said that auto takes away some type safety, which is totally true and wildly different than just dropping 'it's bad' or 'you should never use it'.
 
@Xeo At least when I wrote execute I knew that it was a template function and therefore mentally kept a close eye on it. But, yeah, it's not highly dissimilar. I believe I named this as an equivalent scenario in some message above.
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I swear everything is too slow :P
 
Xeo
3:42 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Who said you have written the free template execute?
 
@Xeo Sorry, I meant lexically written execute(foo());
 
Xeo
mh
 
Even there it is only a very small difference
 
@Ell I mean alright, you can create a funky toy example with textures only. But for different worlds and updating JS GC will kill it
 
Xeo
Also, again, how do you know it's a template? Maybe it's just overloaded? :P
 
19 mins ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
@R.MartinhoFernandes It could be posited that, if your template args are inferred, the problem was already there in your expression before you started using auto. Not in precisely the same example, but...
 
Xeo
mh
 
@Ell it's also much less responsive because of totally shitty event handling. (that's not the engine's fault, of course)
 
@Xeo Yeah, as I said, you've identified the same thing. That doesn't mean auto is magically immune from blame.
 
FWIW, this is one reason why I want concepts with explicit maps, not implicit.
 
Xeo
3:45 PM
The second thing I wanted to say: If you change your function to return a different type, it doesn't make sense (IMHO) to return a type that does something completely different.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, I was just thinking about that on the way home.
 
"Can't understand why this has been down voted so much" because on SO any question that even comes remotely close to undefined/unspecified/implementation dependent behaviour is likely immediately downvoted, closed, and swept under the carpet. Apparently pedantry is more relevant than realistic and pragmatic development needs. Slightly tongue-in-cheek but it sometimes feels that way. — Thomas 2 hours ago
^^ sooooo true...
 
Xeo
SomeConcept v = foo();, and that can only work if mapping is explicit, since implicit mapping can only check syntax, not semantics.
 
@Ell but indeed they've put a substantial amount of effort into that.
 
@Xeo Well, there's that too. This'd come up only in refactors, you'd hope.
 
@Xeo Sure, but the point is that you get a compilation on a breaking change that you wouldn't get otherwise.
It doesn't have to be completely different, just breaking.
 
3:48 PM
@Xeo I said that too, but their opinion is that when you change the type everything must break
 
@Mysticial It can be from time to time, but not in this case. If you look at the first revision, that more than explains those initial eight downvotes. "which one is better plz help thanx"
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, I expect things to break when I make a breaking change.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah, the first revision is pretty bare.
 
When concepts are introduced I want auto banned in all cases other than when at least one concept is stated. Maybe.
 
btw, @LightnessRacesinOrbit @R.MartinhoFernandes I am fairly sure that (totally apart from auto) most programmers would click "refactor name"
 
Xeo
3:49 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Maybe
 
which brings us to basically the same place.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Okay, I won't argue against that. However, I wonder if things would be different if C++ had C++11-auto from the beginning.
 
@Mysticial People are also over-defensive about it because, in the vast majority of these cases, the OP didn't know/care/acknowledge the implementation-specificness, and this ignorance is a horrendous plague that needs to be stamped out. True questions about some specific arch or platform are very rare.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Which is?
 
@BartekBanachewicz C++ doesn't define "refactor name", nor any place to "click"
 
3:50 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes you changed the type and suddenly your disk is erased
 
@Xeo Nah. The real problem stems from the overloading.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes What does overloading have to do with anything?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yep. you just moved auto from compile-time to coding-time
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit your examples involved people, I don't see why mine could not.
 
@Xeo The execute name as a member function has more than one meaning.
 
3:50 PM
@BartekBanachewicz How do you click on a person?
@Xeo I think he means a logical overloading rather than its more strict C++ sense
 
Xeo
Ah
 
Each type is not going to have unique function names. It's just not.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit the fact that you have no reasonable answer for that couldn't be more apparent
 
(I mean "overloading" in the general sense of giving different meanings to any name, not strict function overloading as defined by C++)
 
@BartekBanachewicz You're such a dick today. Argue the technical points, please.
 
3:51 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit s/today//
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That's actually a good way to put it too: auto takes away the uniqueness of member function names.
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz No, you have no reasonable answer for "how do you click on a person" :P
 
@BartekBanachewicz You left a double-space in there
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmm yes that is a good phrasing actually -- good job
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You're such a click today.
4
 
Well played.
 
3:52 PM
I'm glad you see where I was coming from, @R.MartinhoFernandes. I really was beginning to think that every C++ programmer other than me was stupid. Glad to see it's not everyone...
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you can all well use "find all references to foo" to see if the new type wouldn't break anything. Seriously, having the type spelled out changes exactly what in that regard? That you have to change the variable types? And what does it give you?
 
@Xeo clickity click!
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, you can do a lot of things by hand. I still prefer when all I need to do is press "Build".
 
@BartekBanachewicz It gives you "ah, there's another one. I'll change the type. well, let me first check that I want to"
 
If only the fact that you have to look at every use by hand, then I still think "refactor name" is a strong reason to say this reason is bullshit
 
3:53 PM
That's really obvious.
 
OK Guys, thanks for sharing with me your favourite new feature of C++ even if you're all a little tetchy about it
 
@BartekBanachewicz What?
 
@SimonBosley What's yours?
 
I haven't read it yet :-)
 
@BartekBanachewicz No one changed any name in the examples given :/
 
Xeo
3:54 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes cue "the name of the return type"
 
I only just ordered this new Bjarne S. book.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes he changed the type returned by foo from A to B
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's not a name change.
 
I guess I could just download the new specification and read that
 
There are two types: one named A and one named B.
Neither changes name in the process.
 
3:54 PM
could be good bedtime reading
 
This is a "change signature" refactoring, not a "rename".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ok, right
@R.MartinhoFernandes still, the benefit of using auto is the fact you have to correct all uses of foo, right? Because it won't compile.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes struct A{}; -> struct B{};, with the insides completely rewritten. :D
@BartekBanachewicz Wut
That sounds backwards.
 
he changed type returned from foo
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, that's exactly the opposite. With auto it will always compile.
 
3:56 PM
thus, he has to change each A a = foo()
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes so long the interface stays the same
 
(Again, ignoring lack of copy/move)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes so it won't compile with explicit type, and thus it's better because when you make such a change in foo, you have to look at all uses of foo, right?
 
which is the thing you might perfectly well do with find all references to foo
 
3:57 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I have to (a) check whether that line is still valid in my new code, (b) update the line if so, (c) do something completely different if not.
ITT Bartek has never managed a mid-to-large scale project over the mid-to-long term
 
@BartekBanachewicz But the compiler forces you to do so.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit so you introduce an operation of renaming even if the type would fit, right?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I what now?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes so the compiler provides you with checklist of "occurences of foo I've already checked"
@LightnessRacesinOrbit in situation (b) you still have to update
 
@BartekBanachewicz A list of places where your change caused a violation of the type system.
@BartekBanachewicz You always have to update. That's the point.
 
3:59 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes assuming we don't use auto at all, it's the same as list of places where foo is used
 
A breaking change requires more than making the change itself.
It's good when the compiler prevents you from shipping it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes the only difference is that the "checklist" is in the compiler instead of on your sheet of paper
 

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