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2:00 PM
so you only press buttons
anyway, my answer was just called "useless stub"
 
@melak47 ¬_¬ that's a form a geometry
 
@thecoshman not..really
 
@BartekBanachewicz We noticed (on account of you linking it two seconds ago)
 
@melak47 close enough :P
 
@BartekBanachewicz no matter what renderer I use, I only press buttons :p
specifically the big one that says "Render"
 
2:02 PM
@DeadMG I'm deeply struck by that
@melak47 except the one you write yourself, duh?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not writing a renderer for 3ds max...
 
anyway Iray's page is a huge flash blob
way to go, @NVidia
@melak47 it thought you are programming
@melak47 voxels are geometry too
 
@BartekBanachewicz just about as much as pixels are
@BartekBanachewicz not right now
 
@melak47 yeah, except you don't really store sparse pixel geometry
not usually, that is.
 
@BartekBanachewicz voxels can be turned into geometry by various means, that doesn't make them geometry
 
2:08 PM
@melak47 "sparse voxel geometry" is a widely used term
 
@BartekBanachewicz Does it refer to the geometry generated from the voxels, or to the voxels themselves?
 
Also usual conversion happens from triangle geometry to voxel geometry, not the opposite (except for minecraft and voxel-logic-based-games, of course)
 
@BartekBanachewicz google finds two results. :p
 
voxels store volume data, geometry stores surface data
 
2:10 PM
@melak47 uh, not really
both statements are incorrect
 
would you call a rasterized image of some triangle meshes "geometry"?
 
It's a rectangle!
 
"geometry" is not a defined term here.
however
that is wrong v
1 min ago, by melak47
voxels store volume data, geometry stores surface data
 
fine, geometry can also include lines I suppose, which don't exactly have a surface...
 
the main difference is that voxels are regular, and "geometry" is arbitrary
even sparse voxels follow some rules of placement
whilst in typical point geometry you can put them in arbitrary place and order
 
2:13 PM
right. so what you're saying is, voxels aren't geometry? :p
 
2 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
"geometry" is not a defined term here.
I might as well say that geometry is a way of describing a 3d object and fuck you because it doesn't have formal definition.
so it's better to say voxel field/volume and triangle mesh :P
 
fine, geometry := triangle mesh; geometry != voxel field :p
 
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
I might as well say that geometry is a way of describing a 3d object and fuck you because it doesn't have formal definition.
seriously.
 
I just defined geometry. :p
 
I don't give a damn about your definition.
It's not more correct than mine.
 
2:16 PM
Somehow, it is possible, using a double router setup, to have no access through the outside facing one, but do have access through the inside one - that also goes through the outside...
 
Geometry is the branch of mathematics that studies shapes.
It has a definition already. What you graphics dudes lack is a definition of what you mean when you abuse the term.
 
let me define geometry: " a. The branch of mathematics concerned with the properties and relations of points, lines, surfaces, and solids (originally one of the four subjects of the quadrivium). In later use also (from the 19th cent.): a generalization of this to spaces of more than three dimensions. Also: a particular mathematical system describing these properties and relations.
" - OED
 
3 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
so it's better to say voxel field/volume and triangle mesh :P
 
@BartekBanachewicz So, Equestria Girls is decent. You should watch it.
 
@EtiennedeMartel aight
 
2:17 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes is it that hard to find the definition? It's math; all math is defined
 
that's why I dislike the term anyway.
 
next time I'll say polygon soup instead of geometry, I'm sorry ;_;
 
@melak47 define soup
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf cough
 
@melak47 hey, I'm not angry or something. I just think that the term isn't well-defined
 
2:20 PM
@EiyrioüvonKauyf I thought you said finding defninitions is easy :p
 
I should write a simple renderer that would sample from 3D texture
it could be nice.
maybe I could even render minicraft that way
 
I should write code that does stuff
 
@Magtheridon96 what are you writing now?
 
Summer Games Done Quick is happening right now.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm fixing a pesky bug that's making my GUISlider 2 pixels off ;_;
 
2:21 PM
@melak47 not when you use silly slang and colloquialisms
 
@Magtheridon96 gah, gui rendering is a bitch
 
It has to do with how outlining in SFML adds a rectangle of pixels
 
wait are you using SFML to render it? T_T
 
A Polygon soup is a group of unorganized triangles, with generally no relationship whatsoever. Polygon soups are a geometry storage format in a 3D modeling package, such as Maya, Houdini, or Blender. Polygon soup can help save memory, load/write time, and disk space for large polygon meshes compared to the equivalent polygon mesh. The larger the polygon soup the larger the savings, for instance, fluid simulations, particle simulations, rigid body simulations, environments, and character models can reach into the millions of polygon for feature films causing large disk space and read/write ...
 
NOOOOO......
 
2:22 PM
I know right
 
I was for real when I said "don't touch sf::Graphics ever"
 
@melak47 not polygon soup; but just soup. but cool i didn't know about this
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf me either.
 
What is so terrible about it?
 
@Pawnguy7 I guess "everything" won't be enough?
 
2:23 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I have a lot of refactoring to do later when I want to augment everything, and a lot of reading to do as well (OpenGL)
 
Ell
@Bartek you're gonna have to do a better job of that to convince :P
 
I have a deadline in 4 days to meet ;_;
 
@Magtheridon96 cool; just drink coffee :3 and open source it... can you open source it? or pesky nda's
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't have your backround, so it is a bit vague, and... non-specific.
 
@Pawnguy7 Yo, I heard that your tautology was tautological
 
2:25 PM
@EiyrioüvonKauyf Can't open-source this one in particular
 
@Magtheridon96 oh :|
 
And yes, that would be because of NDAs ;p
 
@Magtheridon96 dam; same. one company made me sign an NDA before i could enter their office for an interview. uhhh how about building extra components outside of work that are generalized and then using those in your project
 
I'm in highschool, I don't have a job and I'm in an indie team. This confidentiality agreement is only present because the rest of my team want it there
> (removed)
 
:L i want a hat on catplusplus
 
2:28 PM
That NDA's getting to you ;-)
 
what kinda hat
 
he has everything else for gods sake
 
The Cat in the Hat
 
tophat of course
:3
 
Ell
@magtheridon do you need any extra members?
 
@Ell at the moment, no
 
@Magtheridon96 Hopefully GLDR will be ready to use by then
 
@Magtheridon96 is it a school indie team or a general one?
 
@DeadMG I am not certain what this means.
 
@Pawnguy7 it's slow and very limited
 
2:30 PM
@Pawnguy7 uhm he's saying you said the same thing twice. like cats are catlike
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf The team is composed of my friends from school and I
 
also writing own wrappers for proper GL is very easy for this kind of stuff
 
@Magtheridon96 oh cool
 
@Magtheridon96 are you writing only the GUI or is it a part of the bigger project?
 
*monocle
we need to get catplusplus a top hat to go with his monocle :L
 
2:31 PM
@EiyrioüvonKauyf I wasn't thinking vague was the same as non-specific, so I was confused.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's part of a 2D game editor :3
 
dammit; cat++ needs a suit too
:L
 
@BartekBanachewicz I cannot say for the slow part - haven't done any intense things - but limited in what way?
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf hotlinking denied. I was expecting, actually, to have to point out that the fuckers didn't use HTTP 403 underneath their fancy "Access Denied" page. But... well, they did. So yeah.
 
The game editor has 3 modules so far: The Map Editor, The Actor Editor and the Lua Script Editor :D
 
2:32 PM
@Magtheridon96 You need an editor editor
 
@Magtheridon96 are you using Lundi?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit and that's the Settings button :3
 
Ell
You need an editor factory
 
@BartekBanachewicz never heard of that o-o
 
@Pawnguy7 composition with shaders, for one.
 
2:33 PM
@Ell you need an editor to make more editors
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf that work for you?
 
@Magtheridon96 it's his personal lua + c++ project aka putting Lua in C++
 
@Magtheridon96 are you using raw Lua C API?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Actually, the implementation of Lua is one of the only things I haven't done yet
 
@melak47 dropbox is blocked :L
 
2:35 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I had thought it had some sort of shader support. Anyway though, are shaders simple?
 
YES
:3
wait a suit too though ...
and maybe a bowtie?
 
Cat++ needs an std::tie
 
@Magtheridon96 Well, you're not going to implement the VM itself, huh?>
@Pawnguy7 yes.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not crazy :D
 
@Pawnguy7 shader language is very high-level and pretty straightforward
 
@BartekBanachewicz Okay well, maybe I am
 
@Magtheridon96 then hopefully you will make use of two of my creations :) Meaning both Lundi and GLDR
 
out of curiousity, what do you think of the 90-10% rule of optimization? I'm starting to doubt the truth of it ..
 
@Alex what's that?
 
2:37 PM
that 10% of the code runs 90% of the time, and therefore you should only optimize the 10%
 
usually true
 
and very false ..
 
@BartekBanachewicz Lundi - definitely. GLDR - when I'm refactoring everything, of course~
 
@Alex you should optimize hotspots.
2
 
2:37 PM
It's usually transcribed as 80%/20%
:The term "Pareto principle" can also refer to Pareto efficiency. The Pareto principle (also known as the 80–20 rule, the law of the vital few, and the principle of factor sparsity) states that, for many events, roughly 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes. Business-management consultant Joseph M. Juran suggested the principle and named it after Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto, who observed in 1906 that 80% of the land in Italy was owned by 20% of the population; he developed the principle by observing that 20% of the pea pods in his garden contained 80% of the peas. It is a ...
 
bah! silly hybrid tags
 
yeah I agree that hotspots are more critical
 
@Alex are the only important thing
 
@BartekBanachewicz Is this not supporting it? I wouldn't know.
 
@bar
 
2:38 PM
optimizing hotspots is most beneficial
 
@BartekBanachewicz the rest of the stuff is currently compiled in debug mode -.-
 
and instead of saying 20/80 is correct getting highest optimizer levels should be most beneficial I'd say
 
@Pawnguy7 it's outdated.
@Alex great optimizations.
    // transform the vertex position
    gl_Position = gl_ModelViewProjectionMatrix * gl_Vertex;

    // transform the texture coordinates
    gl_TexCoord[0] = gl_TextureMatrix[0] * gl_MultiTexCoord0;
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol at that edit
 
2:39 PM
everything except gl_Position is deprecated
 
@Alex WTF I LOOKED INTO THE HEART OF DARKNESS, AND I ATE IT ALL!!!
2
(IOW that's simply not sane at all)
 
@thecoshman :-)
+1, btw
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it is...
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I assumed as much
 
so ThePhD is on the way here :)
 
2:40 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I prefer compiling and running code. to doesn't start up ..
 
@BartekBanachewicz outdated version of GLSL?
 
and it's not MY code I'm just maintaining it
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you had to edit it to be able to upvote it?
 
haha I broke stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/… by removing from the first page of posts. It hasn't repaginated, and now there are no posts and no page navigation.
@thecoshman I'm not upvoting a post whose title suggests that we should have hybrid tags.
 
What does "I prefer compiling and running code." mean?
 
2:42 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes set optimize on on certain parts of the code and It will brick, because of millions of missing volatiles and race conditions :(
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit it doesn't suggest it, it questions it. I said "Should we" not "We should", but it is clearer with the 'not'
 
@thecoshman What about making them tag synonyms for both tags?
 
@Alex Wait. Your reasoning for arguing that compiling some code in debug mode is sane stems from the fact that... your code is broken?
 
@thecoshman I know.
@FlorisVelleman I'm sure that's not possible.
Some tags just need banning.
 
@FlorisVelleman AFAIK, a tag synonym can only link to ONE tag
 
Ell
2:44 PM
@Override
protected void onStop() {
	super.onStop();
}
2
Oh how useful!
I'll stop posting code now >.<
 
Tell me it's IDE-generated.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes no I'm saying that 80/20 is not always true. because being too conservative in your style in coding might be more harmful than good. (i.e.: intrusive lists are always faster and worth if used extensively). and in my case, because I inherited a huge fragile code base that kinda works. just optimizing hot spots isn't enough ..
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes Nope :O
 
@Alex It sounds like you have to fix it first.
 
@Pawnguy7 mhm
@Alex what
 
2:45 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes too much trouble.
@R.MartinhoFernandes probably more than a year of working.
 
@Alex then stop saying BS about 80-20 rule
 
Who cares if the 80/20 "rule" doesn't apply to broken code that you don't even care enough about to fix?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I suppose. Still, for simpletons like me, you don't use shaders. And it is simple - as declared in the title. If you know what you are doing (such as yourself), you can just go GL all the way.
 
You'll be rewarded 20% of your invested effort if you optimise those 80%. And your invested effort is going to be huge, because good luck optimising broken code.
 
@Pawnguy7 using normal, modern shaders really isn't that hard. I could teach you that in less than half an hour (for the stuff you normally do w/o them)
it's just most tutorials are terrible :(
 
2:50 PM
I would cite that as the main reason I hesitate to try to learn it again.
 
@BartekBanachewicz @R.MartinhoFernandes because if the 80/20 rule would apply, I would be able to avoid to rewrite about 80% of the code. and I'm afraid that more than 20% of the reward lies just in turning on optimizations. So your argument is, if your code hasn't got decent enough quality, don't bother about 80/20?
 
@Alex My argument is that there is little benefit in making the bugs go faster.
10
 
lol
 
@BartekBanachewicz would the version be supported under 2.1?
 
2:53 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes well if they come faster there is more to fix. and no software is bugfree anyway. and there is benefit, if you are supposed to make something working and cpu usage is already way beyond 70%
 
If CPU usage is not at 100% you are wasting silicon or time.
 
@Pawnguy7 not everything, but basics, yeah.
@Pawnguy7 open.gl/drawing uses #version 150
 
@Alex You said it breaks in a million ways if you turn on optimisations.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes tell that to yourself when I maintain your airbag controller ... ;)
 
Let's face it: it works by sheer luck.
 
2:54 PM
jup
 
then fix it dammit
what's really to argue about here
 
@BartekBanachewicz uhhh can you do this :3
 
the code is broken, so it shouldn't even be profiled
 
Are you sure you can optimise it in a way that the same lucky things that keep it working will still be there?
 
oh god
 
2:55 PM
@thecoshman well, this would be a lovely chat notification sound
 
SFML, please die
 
@thecoshman Turn off sound. Problem solved.
 
@Magtheridon96 :) what now?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I EMBRACE THE FLAME.
 
also s/SFML/SFML Graphics/
 
Ell
2:56 PM
TIL java inner classes can access their outer classes members
 
@BartekBanachewicz The outlining is really weird
 
Ell
Can't believe I didn't know this >.<
 
@Ell .....
 
IOW, how can you optimise something if you don't know how it works?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes by hoping -O3 doesn't break too much
 
2:56 PM
See above: it breaks everything in this case.
 
@TonyTheLion It would be problem solved, if it stayed off
 
@Magtheridon96 teehee
 
@thecoshman crying and outsourcing the remaking of the code
 
Also, note that container attributes have more 'magical' properties (like *int_ >> ';' >> *int_ can be used with a rule that exposes only a single std::vector<int>. But all this is getting a bit far afield. I suggest that experimenting a bit (and perhaps looking at the mechanics while doing so) is the best way to get intimate with the levels of convenience (and sometimes, surprise) that Boost Spirit has to offer. — sehe 59 secs ago
 
@BartekBanachewicz what opengl tutorials do you like?
 
2:58 PM
Boost Spirit is a bad library for control freaks. If you want to 'oversee' all the mechanics, you're going to drown.
 
@thecoshman but what I really want, is this
 
> Fixed SFML2 clipping retardedly for no reason <- commit in GWEN library
 
@BartekBanachewicz I feel it would be bad to learn shaders without knowing GL.
 
@sehe *int_ >> ';' >> *int_...???
 
2:59 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes if i hit the cpu 100% wall I'm trying to fix stuff I find wasting really a lot of time and try to turn on optimizations for single files. solving the issues that are there. interestingly though usually on different places. but there's more hot loops that I can fix this way. so I'll incrementally solve the problem until it stops bugging me, but I get the feeling that I fix mostly legacy problems. not new ones ...
 
@Ell @Magtheridon96 ^
@Pawnguy7 shaders are a part of openGL
 
@sehe I guess boost spirit isn't made for control freaks in the first place, but for people who don't want to spend most of their time writing their own hand written parser..
 

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