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9:01 PM
@MooingDuck "Do you have Windows Vista or better?" = "Do you have an operating system?"
 
@BartekBanachewicz - Whi?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes some people have linux/Mac
 
@MooingDuck So?
 
@MooingDuck Damn dude. Everything is better than vista, so asking if you have something better than vista is a tautology
 
You are really slow today.
 
9:02 PM
@EdHeal please link it to appropriate message, because I don't know what's this question about. Last icon on the right.
 
user142019
When I have a few billion dollar’s I’ll give people Lamborghinis for their birthdays.
 
@Zoidberg me too?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes there's no ⸮ irony punctuation :(
 
user142019
Sure why not.
 
user142019
9:03 PM
They’re only 500k bucks or so.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Learning...
 
TIL some people still use Acrobat 6.
 
@EdHeal so far so good
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well I use Chrome
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes buddy of mine still uses Adobe CS at work
 
@EindacorDS you mean CS 1?
 
9:05 PM
@BartekBanachewicz either 1 or 2, either way isn't that still like 8 or 10 years old?
 
fuck.
 
@EdHeal Seriously... I was just explaining to you why I think you got banned and why I don't think it's childish. If you have a problem with your ban grow a pair and go to them about it. Don't take it out on me.
 
Just as old as Acrobat 6.
 
llvm's sweet optimizations defeat my efforts to beat the shit out of Clang.
 
9:06 PM
architects are typically way, WAY behind with computer tech. we still have consultants asking us to save back to ACAD 2004
 
But Acrobat 6 is a walking pile of security issues.
 
@EindacorDS still better than university teachers
 
@EindacorDS ain't broke principle probably
 
@BartekBanachewicz haha, true
 
Also, it apparently can't deal properly with bidirectional text (which was why I learned someone still uses that thing)
 
9:07 PM
@doug65536 that or his office is insanely cheap
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes do you mean RTL?
 
@Borgleader he's mad because his ability to go to them about it was what was banned.
 
@BartekBanachewicz And/or mixed (hence bi-).
 
@MooingDuck I don't care why he's mad. I won't take shit from someone for something I didn't do. And I didn't ban him.
 
weird. Linking to comment works, but I can't just link to a particular line. I am wondering if it makes sense or not
 
9:10 PM
@BartekBanachewicz If you copy some RTL text to the clipboard, it inverts every letter in each word, but keeps the words in the same order. Totally fucked up.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you don't have to tell me that writing with right hand from right side is fucked up
 
@BartekBanachewicz You're writing an OpenGL Engine?
 
@ThePhD actually, I'm writing version 2.0 of it
 
Sweet deal.
If only it was DIrectX, I would look at how it handled Shaders
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, Acrobat 6 is fucked up.
 
9:11 PM
Because DirectX is currently kicking my ass, what not with its error-less raping of my geometry.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Wat, that's not what's fucked up at all.
real writing systems use RTL writing, so computer systems have to deal with it.
 
@ThePhD still?
 
not dealing with it is fucked-up ness on the part of the computer system, not the writing system.
 
@DeadMG i mean that real writing system RTL is fucked
 
@melak47 No! ... Maybe. .... A little bit.....
 
9:12 PM
@ThePhD Dx sucks nananana
 
@BartekBanachewicz No more than LTR.
 
@DeadMG Did you ever try to write something with a quill?
If you write RTL, you cover just written letters with your palm
Usually smearing them on the sheet.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I am inherently biased towards LTR systems, since they are exclusively my experience.
even if I were to attempt writing RTL, it is no doubt that I would find it awkward and difficult at best
but this says nothing as to the objective fucked-ness of LTR or RTL.
 
@DeadMG I just gave you an example.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Use your left hand. Or l2write. Have you ever seen a person write LTR with the left hand?
 
9:14 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah. It's totally fucked up.
 
Some do. I know a few. They don't cover the letters with their palm.
 
also, your argument is "I write with my right hand, therefore RTL sucks for all."
 
@DeadMG no.
 
user142019
Fuck.
 
user142019
I forgot my email address and password for Tumblr. ;_;
 
9:15 PM
If you are telling me that trying to write RTL the same way you write LTR sucks, then that is pointless.
 
I am trying to tell you that the fact right-handed people write mostly LTR isn't without reason
 
with primitive ink, LTR makes right-handed people less likely to smear the ink they just wrote down
 
Maybe what he's trying to say is it's easer to write LTR as a right-handed person than RTL, and that maybe there's a bit of a bias that people who are left-handed would be good at RTL rather than LTR?
 
@doug65536 And how relevant is that for RTL?
 
9:16 PM
^ What doug said.
 
"Writing RTL like a fool smears the ink you just wrote down?"
Is that it?
 
most people are right handed, so it's optimized for them I guess
 
Well, writing RTL with your right-hand.
RTL with your left hand wouldn't have exactly the same problem with primitive ink.
 
@doug65536 And most Middle Easterns are left-handed?
 
Albeit, this is alleviated if you just lift your fucking hand off the paper a little bit.
 
9:18 PM
> Also, in left-to-right languages, if left-handed writers move their left hands across what they have just written, they may smudge their writing. This situation is reversed in right-to-left languages such as Hebrew and Arabic.
wikipedia ^
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I am making no claim of knowing why some languages are RTL
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes they write in a different way with different tools. Europeans used quills.
 
So what are you trying to say?
RTL is stupid because it is not European?
 
i give up.
 
damn, I suck.
 
9:25 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes what's to like about RTL? I'm trying to see your side of it
 
@doug65536 Nothing. There's no particular reason in general to favour one or the other.
but as a computer programmer, you have to deal with the fact that some languages are RTL.
 
user142019
Do Arabic programmers use inversed indentation?
 
user142019
:P
 
@Zoidberg kill me.
The idea itself gives me creeps
 
user142019
 
9:27 PM
@Zoidberg I assume so
@ThePhD harder than you'd think
 
user142019
        int main(int argc, char const* const* argv)
        {
    if (argc == 1)
    {
std::cout << "Hello, world!";
    }
        }
 
@Zoidberg Whitespace is neutral to directionality.
 
@Zoidberg no, it goes on the right side of the screen
 
Well, it seems like Warm Bodies isn't a bad film. Weird.
 
@Zoidberg hooray, something i understand sorta!
 
user142019
9:29 PM
@MooingDuck oh yea of course. xD
 
@EindacorDS read a book.
 
If I had to guess, I'd say some delusional person heard voices in their head, and some supernatural being "told" some prophet that you had to write RTL
 
@BartekBanachewicz i'm workin on it!
 
posted on February 07, 2013 by Stephan T. Lavavej - MSFT

Part 8 of my third video lecture series (covering the C++ Core Language) is now available.  In this part, I covered several topics: why I avoid do-while loops, how C and C++ casts behave and why they're dangerous, what the One Definition Rule is and how to follow it, and how my toy program to sort arrays with variadic templates works. For reference, here are all of the links to my video l

 
@EindacorDS what are you reading?
 
user142019
9:30 PM
int main(int cgra, char const* const* vgra)
                                          {
                         if (1 == cgra)
                                      {
      std::cout << "!dlrow ,olleH";
                                      }
                                          }
 
user142019
@MooingDuck more like this? XD
 
@Zoidberg kill it with fire
 
MY EYES, THE GOGGLES- THEY DO NOTHING
 
@BartekBanachewicz some book that's apparently no good. going to pick up one from the list posted earlier
 
                       (argv *const*const char, argc int)main int
                                                                }
                                              (1 == argc) if
                                                           }
                           ;"!world, Hello" << cout::std
                                                           {
                                                                {
 
9:31 PM
@EindacorDS Get C++ Primer (without "Plus")
 
fuck this, I'm gonna go play some Starcraft 2.
 
user142019
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
 
wait, why is the icon gone from my taskbar?
 
You uninstalled it.
 
9:31 PM
@DeadMG Good plan.
 
@BartekBanachewicz amazon reviews said it's not great for beginners
 
@DeadMG are you EU or NA?
 
@Zoidberg yes
 
@EindacorDS C++ Primer Plus sucks for everybody.
 
@BartekBanachewicz was thinking about this: amazon.com/dp/0321543726/?tag=stackoverfl08-20
 
9:32 PM
@EindacorDS it has steep learning curve, again, C++ has it, too. I see no reason why you shouldn't get it. If you're determined, it will be ok
 
@MooingDuck lol, that looks like it was really annoying to write
 
@BartekBanachewicz He's Brit. And yes, I'm aware that does not answer your question.
 
@Zoidberg There's an egyptian guy at my work, and he complained about my part of our software making him do LTR, so I asked him to show me what I wanted, and when I saw that my jaw hit the floor
 
@DeadMG could you please read what I posted?
 
@doug65536 yes
@Zoidberg see mine, but yes (I left each individual word LTR so I/we can read it still)
 
9:32 PM
@EindacorDS that's outdated
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, I read it, but I thought you were explicitly correcting him from saying he was going to get C++ Primer Plus.
 
@DeadMG ok. Now, are you NA or EU?
 
@BartekBanachewicz he's EU
 
Not Available.
 
EU.
also I deleted Starcraft 2 a couple days ago.
 
9:34 PM
you can always DL it back
 
@DeadMG FAIL
 
why do people like the C++ primer books so much? I hate walkthrough style books. reference style is much better
 
I could use 2v2 partner until my roommate arrives back
 
@BartekBanachewicz With his connection? hahaha
 
@BartekBanachewicz At 30kbs.
 
9:35 PM
@DeadMG sucks to be you
 
Tony has arrived in Berlin!
 
@doug65536 I prefer reference style too. I don't like memorizing things, i like understanding how things work
 
@doug65536 because they are really good. And they are written in a way that makes it easy to use them as a reference, so I see no problem
 
does the book suggestion vary based on the fact that i have no previous experience with programming whatsoever?
 
9:36 PM
@EindacorDS well, I would suggest you different language altoghether. Like Lua, which is very easy to grok, yet very powerful
 
@BartekBanachewicz already invested in c++ really, the research i did/people i spoke with seemed to say that was the best way to get where i want to go
 
@EindacorDS Lua is not a substitute for C++, actually, it completes the missing, dynamic part.
So you can actually learn both with great benefit.
@EindacorDS C++ is cool, but if you have no previous programming experience whatsoever, you'll be struggling not only on the programming principles, but also on the language syntax
 
@BartekBanachewicz i'm doing alright so far, understanding most of what i learn pretty well
 
@TonyTheLion I thought you didn't have your laptop.
 
9:40 PM
Pfff....
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes cell phone
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes stole one
 
I'm just gonna wrap all the D3D structures up in my own.
 
I don't, using phone
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes built one
Aww, damnit.
 
9:40 PM
@ThePhD that's why DX sucks
@EindacorDS well go on then :) I suggest you keep everything you write; a year from now you'll laugh at it
 
Yeah, at least OpenGL exposes no structures whatsoever.
 
It's somewhat workable, but slow
 
@BartekBanachewicz haha, will do. i'm also finding EVERYONE has a different opinion on what to learn and how to learn it
 
@BartekBanachewicz The benefit will be is most of the information on DX structs which I will unionize will be parameters into OpenGL function calls.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes which makes it easier to encapsulate
 
9:41 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes But, OpenGL is Open!
 
@ThePhD I have no idea what you are doing
 
@EtiennedeMartel Open-Spec. Everything else is hidden.
 
I don't want to know what "unionize" means.
 
You can't even use the word OpenGL.
 
OpenGL is what i'm going to tackle after I have a good understanding of c++
 
9:41 PM
Otehrwise you'll get the balls sued off you.
 
@EindacorDS what's "good understanding of C++"?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes "to organize (workers) into a trade union"
 
although it is completely obsolete now, C++: The Complete Reference is probably my favorite programming book ever
 
Tell me you are joking.
 
ubiquitous_ptr<ID3D11Buffer, ReleaseDirectX> gpubuffer;
		union {
			D3D11_BUFFER_DESC gpubufferdesc;
			struct {
				uint32 gpubufferbytewidth;
				ResourceUsage gpubufferusage;
				BindFlags gpubufferbindflags;
				CpuAccessFlags gpubufferaccessflags;
				ResourceOptionFlags gpubufferoptionflags;
				uint32 gpubufferstructurebytestride;
			};
		};
 
9:42 PM
@BartekBanachewicz when i finish a book or two
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ^ The above
 
@ThePhD ahawahghahwhrtawd
 
@BartekBanachewicz :D
 
Bullschildt is your favourite programming book ever?
 
Amagawd terribad
 
9:44 PM
@ThePhD Why are you doing this?
 
@ThePhD please do something with these names for fucks sake
 
I feel like I should have a better, shorter name for ubiquitous_ptr.
@EtiennedeMartel Strongly-typed enums to overlap the UINTs of most of D3D11's structures.
 
oh programming humor... one day i'll get you
 
Converting was a bitch, so I union-zied it.
 
Bit why are you wrapping stuff?
 
9:44 PM
I see no enums there.
 
@ThePhD awesome_ptr
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes BindFlags, ResourceUsage, etc.
 
@ThePhD how about ub_ptr, scare the next guy that works on the code base
 
But unions.
 
9:45 PM
@EindacorDS it's not funny what he's trying to do
 
D3D stuff is in ALL CAPS, because Microsoft likes to YELL AT YOU.
 
Unions!
Unions?
 
Unions are fun!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes some people just want to watch the world burn
 
9:45 PM
Like marriage.
 
WTF, dude.
 
I'm a socialist, so I don't see anything wrong with unions.
3
 
wrong reply, haha
 
Somebody unplug the robot for a while, he heard "union" and went bananas
 
Ell
Hmm. What is ubiquitous_ptr?
 
9:45 PM
@ThePhD Are you working on a game?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yes.
 
Ell
Also I don't understand the use of unions unless you can read/write from all members at once - like being able to set the high/low bit. Otherwise I see no point in them
 
@ThePhD You do know the renderer is a very small part of a game?
So the easiest way should be to simply wrap the whole thing?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yes.
 
Instead of wrapping some little parts here and there?
 
9:46 PM
However, it's the part that displays all this fancy integer and float math I'm doing on the screen.
 
@Ell That is the least useful thing. (and doesn't work)
 
that's my iPad stylus ^
 
Ell
What are unions for then? o>o
 
@Ell it's one way to make a structure have a certain alignment
 
@Ell Saving space.
 
9:47 PM
@Ell Converting without actually doing conversions.
 
@Ell Exactly what says on the tin: holding one of various possible types.
 
Ell
Is that all? o.O
 
@ThePhD Fuck no.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hey, as long as the underlying types are the same, it's all legal man.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't really see where that is useful is all
 
9:48 PM
@ThePhD please dont
 
Ell
but then again, I have no real life experience
 
@Ell Why would it be anything else?
@ThePhD You mean, as long as you don't convert anything?
Why do you want the unions, then?
 
@Ell Then you know why you should not use unions.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't mean between int and float. I mean changing DWORD to work like ShaderVariableFlags, which both have the same underlying type: DWORD.
 
Onions FTW
 
9:49 PM
it's a pedantically legal way to type pun
 
Ell
@ThePhD then enum?
 
@ThePhD WHAT
 
@ThePhD You mean an enum?
 
Yeah, an enum.
 
@ThePhD WHY IS IT IN CAPS
 
9:49 PM
@ThePhD You don't need unions for that. And that is UB.
 
DO YOU WANT ENUM MAYBE NOT DWORD
 
DWORD is how MS defines their type. :c
 
@BartekBanachewicz Microsoft.
 
I'm sorry don't yell at me MS does enough of that ;~;
 
9:49 PM
Why the fuck do you always pick the worst way of doing things.
18
 
i'm out for the day, thanks again for the input folks
 
Dafuq is going on here??
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Noobs do that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I actually laughed out loud
 
That's the core property of a noob.
 
9:50 PM
Lol
 
q_q I didn't know, it seemed like a good idea.
 
enum foo : int { x = 4 }; int y; y = x; // OMG look at it no unions
 
Meh noobs
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Do it with enum class without a cast?
 
enum class foo : int { x = 4 }; int y; y = static_cast<int>(foo::x); // OMG look at it no unions
@ThePhD Do it with a union without UB.
 
9:51 PM
Is using a union on PoD types really UB? ._.
 
@ThePhD using it the way you do it yes. It's UB to write to one type, and then read the other
 
For the four thousand three hundred and seventy sixth time: unions are not for conversions.
7
 
@ThePhD usually
 
@ThePhD It's UB to read from any member that isn't the last one you've written to.
Guess what a conversion requires?
 
... So then why are Unions even in C++.
 
9:52 PM
And now you know.
 
For the tits of it?
 
5 mins ago, by Etienne de Martel
@Ell Saving space.
 
@ThePhD because C
 
5 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@Ell Exactly what says on the tin: holding one of various possible types.
 
@ThePhD for storing one of multiple objects in the same place (mostly C compatability)
 
9:52 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Or wasting it.
 
yeah, anyone using a union for anything must be a fucking retard right? -_-
 
@MooingDuck One
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That as well.
 
@doug65536 nope. using it for something that gives UB - surely
 
@ThePhD Check your compiler manual :)
 
9:53 PM
But you've all invalidated almost all and every usage case of unions.
 
@ThePhD there's perfectly one use case
 
@ThePhD no, you can still store one of many times with a union. That's what it's for.
 
@ThePhD Congratulations, you've now discovered most people use unions for the wrong reasons.
 
@ThePhD Those were never use cases of unions.
 
9:54 PM
@ThePhD you know about boost::variant<int, float>? That's what union is for.
 
So I could void* and just read what I want...
... Or I could use a union.
 
Man, someone needs to read a proper C++ book!
 
no.
 
I think I like the union.
 
unions are almost universally useless.
 
9:55 PM
What do you want to do?
 
@ThePhD No. You cannot do that conversion without a cast without UB at all.
 
they are nothing more than an unsafe boost::variant.
 
Q_______________Q
I GIVE UP.
 
what compiler doesn't recognize aliasing when you assign to a union member and read from another?
 
static_cast, here I come.
 
9:55 PM
@ThePhD finally
 
@doug65536 It's UB, so any of them can.
 
@doug65536 it's UB
 
Damn took a while
 
@ThePhD There is a right way to achieve what you need.
Unless you need something illegal.
 
please stop the pedantic nonsense. anyone know an actual compiler that behaves badly
 
9:56 PM
No one wants to know one.
 
@doug65536 if you think UB is pedantic nonsense you don't belong in that room actually. Also this ^
 
I'm saying that some UB is actually BS
 
I'll still use unions with D3D, though. Because internally D3D uses unions in the same way I do, so as long as D3D does it I'll do it too.
 
@doug65536 every UB is BS, if you use it
 
wtf
 
9:57 PM
@doug65536 That means you don't know what UB is.
 
what use is the trial of a file undeleter if it can't undelete files?
 
yar
 
Ell
@ThePhD then what's the point in wrapping it? >.<
@DeadMG try recuvaa?
 
@DeadMG Making you whine about it here.
 
:c
I quit.
 
9:57 PM
lol
 
no, it means that I know that compiler writers aren't idiots and they care more than zero about supporting easily recognized aliasing scenarios
 
@doug65536 aliasing and alignment not pedantic
 
@ThePhD I wouldn't copy Dx in any way.
 
@ThePhD Anyway, wrapping those things is useless.
 
@doug65536 Go read some GCC strict aliasing horror stories.
 
Ell
9:58 PM
@ThePhD don't quit :3
 
@doug65536 it means that if something is UB, it might as well blow up your PC
 
Simply write two renderers: one for D3D, and one for OGL. Come to think of it, why do you even need two renderers? What are your target platforms?
 
Ell
Just write one OGL renderer
 
you need only opengl...
 
Right now, my target platform is DirectX. I will be porting to Linux after the game is working.
 
9:59 PM
@ThePhD Then go with OGL.
 
@ThePhD you can use OpenGL on windows, silly
 
> Type-based aliasing is stupid. It's so incredibly stupid that it's not even funny. It's broken. And gcc took the broken notion, and made it more so by making it a "by-the-letter-of-the-law" thing that makes no sense.
 
Here is Linus' opinion on it.
 
9:59 PM
Which is easier to code in, OpenGL or Direct3D?
 
@Crowz if you have to ask, neither. Use higher level interface.
 

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