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2:01 AM
@Shoe I'm saying it's definitely not true that everybody involved serves only their own self interest, at least in terms of rep points. I can't say with certainty that the same is necessarily true of Mysticial, but there's no question in my mind that it's possible (and I think it's probably true too).
 
I never said he only servers his own self interest, he may also serve someone else's self interest at the same time
But we all act in terms of self interest
 
@JerryCoffin altruism is still about serving self interest (making oneself feeling good)
 
Which doesn't mean spending all your free time answering questions on SO just because getting more rep is in favour of your interests
 
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper I'm not saying otherwise--I specifically said "at least in terms of rep points."
 
It also means balancing answering interesting questions more likely so you do yourself double the self interest (by answering things you like to talk about and by getting reputaion)
That's the basics of being efficient
 
2:04 AM
Replica Aston Martin Vanquish Built From A Mustang Is this what you were referring to @ElimGarak?
 
@Borgleader Yes, but more accurate than that. :D
Less chinese :D
 
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper I should probably add: to at least an extent, this is an unproven assumption. Perhaps it's best to look at it from a point of evolution: why/how did we evolve to feel good about doing things that aren't otherwise in our self interest? The answer seems to be that it favors doing things that help an entire society, not just an individual. Although I certainly can't prove it, I think it's possible to make that decision consciously, not just because it makes an individual feel good.
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin There are actually a large number of theories about that.
 
user406009
I think the funniest one is that the appearance of altruism is a social marker for being a good reproductive mate.
 
user406009
(Similar to good looks, etc, etc)
 
2:18 AM
@Lalaland Yes--I certainly didn't mean to advance benefit to society as the answer, merely as an alternative possibility (though looking back, what I said certainly could be read that way). Even if that's not how the evolution happened, I think some people's decisions really may be altruistic, not just what makes themselves feel better.
 
@ElimGarak Do they make actual kits or are they all custom jobs?
 
@Borgleader The higher the accuracy, the more custom they are.
 
@JerryCoffin I've actually stopped caring about my total rep years ago. It got uninteresting after 50k or so. All I've wanted is for the question to stay a "normal" question (unlocked, non-wiki). But I guess that becomes increasingly difficult given the popularity of it.
 
What you don't pay with money, you pay with time, so it can easily last up to 2-3 years to build.
 
@Mysticial I find that quite easy to believe, but some (apparently) don't. Such is life.
 
Ell
2:28 AM
How do you people pronounce parse?
Like bars or farce?
 
@Ell p-arse
 
"parsh"
 
@Ell Rhymes with farce.
 
Ell
Yeah I've always said it like that
My lecturer today said it rhyming with bars though o.O
I wonder why
 
barse?
pars.
 
2:30 AM
@Ell Dictionary says those misguided Brits are more likely to mispronounce it that way. merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parse
 
rep is like Pi digits, it gets uninteresting after 14159
 
@HubertApplebaum Obvious comparison, but still somewhat interesting. Particularly, in both cases the mechanisms by which more can be obtained can remain interesting long after the digits themselves are thoroughly boring.
 
Ell
Ah interesting
 
@sehe can’t really figure out what it’s for from just the readme
 
2:47 AM
@HubertApplebaum 2
 
@Shoe 6
 
It's a Stupid Quest but worth attention: Do you read (without being forced to do so ) "Programming" books? I just wonder why I should waste time on books reading since there are zillion cool articles available in the web
http://blog.codinghorror.com/programmers-dont-read-books-but-you-should/
 
> "Programming" books
 
so to conclude your guys conversation, reputation points are neither truly indicative of ability nor are they directly effective in the real world?
 
Are you one of those "retards"?
 
2:54 AM
@ElimGarak """"""""""
Here are more quotes.
In case you need them.
 
They appear to be quest items, thanks!
 
yes
 
@ProblemSlover read mythical man month and thinking forth. If you never read anything else, at least read those.
Then, never read anything else.
 
@Shog9 :ok_hand:
 
2:58 AM
blogging horror links are forbidden
no jef allowed
 
I'm just rolling my eyes of this twitter post
https://twitter.com/csilvazen/status/692158053496528897
 
> full stack software engineer ~ probably craving kombucha and in denial about it ~ #javascript junkie, @reactjs convert, single speed roadie ~
full stack software cancer
 
@Shog9 Maybe that's why I suck. I've read way too many books.
 
@HubertApplebaum Hahaha. Well Said!
 
3:02 AM
Sparse stack developer
 
http://www.amazon.com/Elon-Musk-Billionaire-SpaceX-shaping/dp/075355562X
The book I'd recommend to read everyone
 
here's a good read ;)
 
Who gives a flying shit about other people's life
Particularly when they're billionaires
 
yay
 
@ProblemSlover The simple answer is that it's a lot more efficient because you can learn at least somewhat systematically. Articles on the web are extremely uneven in quality, and it would be difficult to find a set of them that you'd have any real hope of learning a coherent framework, rather than just a collection of individual, mostly-unrelated bits and pieces.
 
3:04 AM
@ProblemSlover Does it regale the users with a tale of how his X.com company luckily merged with PayPal and then it was dissolved weeks in because it was useless? And then how he took credit from the actual brains behind Tesla and SpaceX? Because that's the book I want to read.
And I thought you left the Lounge. Shit. Why can't we get more people with brains here.
 
already in excess
 
@JerryCoffin I prefer to read articles with comments . It helps to assess the quality of an article
 
Yes, comments == quality. gtfo
 
// This is a quality article
 
//"a" is a quality article
 
3:08 AM
Reading of books doesn't make me want to write the code. but reading of articles. some probably "are extremely uneven" but it makes me want to make further research in the google and digging in the docs more. books on other hand make you lazy to check docs and some other shit
 
what about an ebook :-)
 
> further research in the google
First off, hahahah.
> books on other hand make you lazy to check docs
What the actual fuck?
> Reading of books doesn't make me want to write the code. but reading of articles.
Because you can't copy code from books trivially.
 
@ProblemSlover Then you need meta-comments (or knowledge of the authors) to assess the quality of the comments. At least offhand I can only think of a handful of people who write articles on the web that are consistently worth reading.
 
@JerryCoffin what about meta-meta comments to learn about the quality of the meta-comments?
sorry, alt-tabbed in, saw the convo, couldn't help myself.
 
@jaggedSpire I took for granted that anybody with an IQ of at least double digits would realize this was an endless recursion.
 
3:12 AM
@JerryCoffin I am proud to announce that my IQ is at least 10 then
 
Cinch's tutorials are the only thing you folks need.
3
 
@ElimGarak Hey hey. It's my experience. Good for you if reading of books makes you "better" in some aspects of your experience / knowledge
 
@ProblemSlover I've been attacked by bees which have more software engineering experience than you.
 
@ElimGarak excellent advice
 
@ElimGarak Cannot be stressed more
 
3:14 AM
@ElimGarak Those were wasps, not bees.
 
@JerryCoffin They're vicious :(
 
@JerryCoffin you have to watch out for those software-engineering wasps. They'll make you wish you had a coffin on standby
 
The key to IME is E.
 
@ElimGarak Probably a sign of my age, but I can't help remembering Mohammed Ali's lines.
 
Watched Dogma, p good film
 
3:16 AM
@JerryCoffin so, so tempted to ask "who?" But I know who he is. :P
 
Dogma? I will do further research in the google
 
Behold the Metatron
 
This just in: Cat likes something
 
Wait until he sees Xeo and me at his door. He'll love us.
 
who wouldn't
 
3:18 AM
@ElimGarak I don't care what software engineering insects have bitten you .
We have different ways. My goal is not to become a Software Architect. or whoever. there big bro in design and delivery of software
 
user406009
@ElimGarak I am still waiting for his Monad one.
 
@ProblemSlover ...what
 
@Lalaland no, don't do it! We need you sensible!
you have so much to logic for!
 
@ProblemSlover Before you take over the world, please check this out
And associated books. Learn you English in 21 days. Or years.
 
3:20 AM
Don't inline Amazon links how many times does that have to be repeated
 
never heard this
 
Be patient, Cat, I am on it :P
@Mikhail Yeah, they're kinda huge, so that's a bit of a problem.
 
user406009
This chat does have a couple of silly rules.
 
@ElimGarak Man. I'm stuck in multitasking and following my grammar is not my mid level priority.
 
> Try not to inline Amazon links, they tend to result in boxes far too big.
@ProblemSlover It's not just grammar, your sentences are devoid of meaning. Dem semantics be hard.
 
@CatPlusPlus Alan Rickman in fine form as ever
 
That's disappointing
 
@Lalaland The one about oneboxing Amazon links is okay, it's not forbidden, but the entertainment value must be proportional to the screenspace size. :D
 
@jaggedSpire Yes
Galaxy Quest is p great too
 
Next Titanfall Game "Looking Fantastic," EA CEO Says In other news, EA CEO attempts to suck his own dick.
 
I've never seen a more generic, boring and utterly soul-crushing game than Titanfall.
@CatPlusPlus Loved that movie!
@HubertApplebaum Do something useful! :P
 
Well fine. I've just wasted 30 minutes of my valuable time on discussing some bulls!t.
bb
 
@HubertApplebaum are you sure?
 
@ProblemSlover Delusions of grandeur are strong with this one.
bb
 
bullwot
 
3:29 AM
I'd discuss a bull's ability to sit.
Can bulls sit? Lettuce discuss.
 
What the fuck do you expect from us, bull puns??? I CANT WORK WITH THIS
 
@LucDanton It's only partially devirtualized
If I mark the class final it is fully devirtualized
 
no..
 
what more do you want optimized out? the whole array and the pointees?
 
Pointii
 
3:33 AM
Well, at least the check for the runtime type is useless, and yes, the whole thing could be optimized down to three calls to Derived1::speak
 
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
compilers suck
 
Some people might say this is a failure of the compiler, but I think its a failure of the language. We need a devirtualize keyword, or interfaces.
 
@HubertApplebaum The compiler is not comfortable with your request, bby
 
@Mikhail No, that's terrible
It's like inline and shit
 
3:36 AM
@HubertApplebaum oh I overlooked that bit, I thought that was part of the vtable init
I see now that it’s part of the loop, too
 
@HubertApplebaum whats wrong with inline?
 
lemme check what clang does
clang does inline the whole thing, amaze
 
user406009
@Mikhail Cicada probably wants the inlining to be automatic.
 
wow that's pretty impressive actually
 
The real problem with inline is that it doesn't croak when it fails.
 
3:38 AM
inline is a compiler detail which humans shouldn't care about at all
 
like restrict?
 
unless you decide to force the matter
 
restrict is to compensate for lacking alias analysis yeah
 
I MUST MICROMANAGE EVERY BIT OF CODE GENERATION
 
user406009
I guess by that logic, should we remove intrinsics as well?
 
3:39 AM
@HubertApplebaum sadly the usual suspects (i.e. -fwhole-program -fvisibility=hidden) don’t help
 
Not really, no
 
@HubertApplebaum I think we want different things. I want a compile time checks so that I know if the compile DE-virtualized something correctly. And indeed, I want to be sure stuff got inlined.
 
Intrinsics are just things that can't be implemented in the language
They're not very related to microoptimisation
SSE intrinsics notwithstanding
 
user406009
Every intrinsic could theoretically be used by a compiler as an implementation detail instead of manually used.
 
spellchek u useles piece of shit
 
3:41 AM
sometimes intrinsic are not unique though...
 
@Lalaland So?
 
user406009
> inline is a compiler detail which humans shouldn't care about at all
 
Yes, and?
 
what does the word 'intrinsic' mean to you I can only wonder
 
@LucDanton Yeah :( turning the Derived1* into unique_ptr<Derived1> is enough to confuse clang though
 
3:43 AM
Intrinsics are not compiler details, they're compiler builtins aka primops
 
Also not sure why you'd extrapolate something said about inline to anything else
 
gotta make generalizations
 
@HubertApplebaum wow that’s disappointing
 
yeah I kinda wanna cry atm
 
3:44 AM
See in this example unique_ptr would benefit from being an intrinsic even though you're using it explictly
What a savings
 
All hail Catoptimizer.
 
That sentence was weird
But you get the idea (well probably not but)
it's 5am friday
Time to sleep
 
@HubertApplebaum Why do you want to cry the atmosphere?
@CatPlusPlus nighty night
 
Cat's strategy to avoid rebecca: skip friday
 
Looking at these comments it seems Assassination Classroom is a much loved show.
More than I expected.
 
3:49 AM
@HubertApplebaum Not only are Cat's optimizations beyond reproach, his dispatch scheduler is impeccable.
 
Also never forget all the type traits that outright require intrinsics to work
inline on the other hand is only ever used anymore because of ODR, because inlining is often a pessimisation and compiler knows better
So yeah exactly the same thing
#clicksomefuckingcookies
 
@HubertApplebaum I actually had never run into a kinda-sorta-half-baked, prediction-style partial devirtualization before so that was cool to see btw
I was idly wondering why of all things it tested one of the vtable entries to check for the right type which is when I realised the coolness of the trick
 
4:16 AM
hmmm
If I make the only constructor of a literal class ConstructorProtected private, delete the copy and move constructors, and friend another class so only it may create ConstructorProtected objects, and only define static members in that class, is it safe to implement operator== as comparing references, rather than comparing all values in each object?
it seems both reasonable and insane
which is probably an indicator I should feel bad, and go to bed
 
@jaggedSpire What the fuck.
 
...only constructor > deleted copy and move constructors is redundant
@Nooble because the only objects of the type will be statics located in a single struct, and they're being used as sort of a tag, sort of a carrier for additional information
 
@Xeo @Mysticial @ScarletAmaranth Damn that Boku dake ga Inai Machi cliffhanger! (Btw, this series is kinda getting good, I mean really good. I mean like Steins Gate level good.)
 
user406009
@jaggedSpire Basically as an enum of sort with extra functions attached.
 
they can't be modified other than by casting away constness, which is undefined anyhow
@Lalaland yes!
 
user406009
4:24 AM
@jaggedSpire To make it more clear, I would do away with the friend thing and just have public static, global instances like an actual enum.
 
user406009
(Assuming there is no mutable state)
 
@Lalaland no mutable state
thank you for that sanity check
I was sticking all that nonsense in a different class for no good reason
no wait you can't use an incomplete type
do you know of a way to get around that, @Lalaland ?
 
user406009
@jaggedSpire Have a static function which returns a const reference maybe?
 
@Lalaland Maybe.
I'm trying to allow things at compile time so all of the instances are constexpr though, and apparently static locals can't be constexpr?
 
user406009
Eh, constexpr. Yet another part of C++ I haven't bothered to learn anything about.
 
4:30 AM
@jaggedSpire it’s fine, but you generally can’t use addresses of locals in the constexpr world
 
@LucDanton ah
so it can happen but is unusable for my purposes.
still, that's p neat
it would violate the purity of the function wouldn't it
 
@Lalaland I find it not a very interesting feature. But boost hana may change my mind when it gets released.
 
@LucDanton Omg I indirectly helped Luc learn something
no way
 
note that using the addresses of namespace scope or static data members is fine-ish (it’s at least not as restricted as with locals)
 
4:33 AM
@LucDanton how so? constructing the constexpr object from an argument would mean it had different results depending on who called it first? Am I talking nonsense right now?
 
@jaggedSpire it looks that way yes
 
(no really, I get the feeling I'm missing something fairly obvious)
 
user406009
@StackedCrooked Yeah the reflection features look very cool.
 
Devirtualization is something I never expect to happen. So when it does it's always a pleasant surprise.
 
@jaggedSpire I was under the impression that you thought using the addresses of locals allows you to mess with things
@HubertApplebaum speculative devirtualization is the name (makes sense), I guess I’ve seen it before but not really looked into it
 
4:37 AM
@LucDanton not quite. You know the singleton pattern, where there's a static local returned by reference from the function? I was thinking static constexpr local returned by reference from the function. Messing with it would be undefined behavior.
 
I thought your things were stateless
 
ah
no, they have state. It's just it doesn't change once constructed
so I need multiple objects, but won't want client code making more willy-nilly
 
switch to static data members I guess
 
@LucDanton probably invented by some bank
 
problem is they need to be passed into functions at runtime too
7
Q: Describing pixel format information in C++ in a way that is usable at both compile-time and runtime

molfI have a library that does operations on pixels. The pixels can by in many different formats. I am looking for an effective way to describe the formats in the library API (internally and externally). For some classes the pixel format is a template argument, for others it is a runtime argument. S...

^the source of present lapse in sanity
 
4:43 AM
You're still going in on that?
 
@HubertApplebaum What with the new identity?
 
@ThePhD I finished knitting, so I started messing about
and came up with something of questionable sanity
specifically, have the implementing class be a literal class. Have its only constructor be private, and friend a struct. Have the struct only contain static constexpr objects of that type. Preventing the client from generating any of them would mean you can simply check for equality by comparing addresses, because there's only ever one of each definition.
 
@MarkGarcia What new identity?
 
@jaggedSpire believe it or not, this may be one of the least tedious way to reuse a data type between compile-time and runtime
 
Also omg I'm filing tax for the first time of my life and it's for HK can you believe it
 
4:46 AM
notice that if you switch to GCC it can’t deal with it
that’s how… weird and unusual it is
 
@HubertApplebaum nvm
 
@HubertApplebaum yes it is very believable
 
This would allow you to give the static members as template arguments via const reference, and to pass them around via const reference at runtime
 
@MarkGarcia kumusta ka kababayan
@LucDanton RIP france
Vous n'aurez pas mon argent !
 
a more credible alternative is to let the user 'unpack' the data into sensible non-type data parameters (i.e. not a silly ref to data) :/
 
4:48 AM
@LucDanton fun!
 
@HubertApplebaum How's the rate there?
 
i.e. template<int Wibbly> struct foo { /* as before */ }; foo<d.wibbly> {};
 
@MarkGarcia ~10-15%
 
as you can tell that gets 'interesting' as the number of actual parameters grows
@HubertApplebaum tu tues Rousseau une 2e fois
 
user406009
@HubertApplebaum Wait, what were you doing in previous years?
 
4:49 AM
Student, why?
My M.S to be precise
 
user406009
Wow, for some reason I thought you were older.
 
but i thought you were an old man hubert
 
it’s the pic isn’t it
 
I'm 81
My M.S took some time
 
5:03 AM
@LucDanton how do you unpack the data at runtime, if you access it via a template specialization?
 
@jaggedSpire you can’t, the OP wants to share data between compile-time and runtime
it’s the same format for both, but not used in the same things
 
@Lalaland It's my extreme maturity isn't it
 
> WvW Capture and Hold guild missions have had their timers increased to 1 hour.
 
user406009
@HubertApplebaum More just your level of complaining about financial code.
 
lol
 
5:07 AM
Fair enough
 
 
@HubertApplebaum do you have full-stack fluency to understand that joke
 
user406009
I think xkcd has gone a little downhill. I am starting to like smbc more.
 
@LucDanton Most of all of it, yes
Is there a point in having a polymorphic class with a non-virtual destructor
 
@HubertApplebaum yes, if you never destroy it polymorphically
 
5:17 AM
Why would anyone do that
 
nobody knows
 
thanks bjarne
 
user406009
A polymorphic class with a nonvirtual destructor is a time bomb in your code base.
 
user406009
It's just a question of when someone will screw up.
 
I can't think of an actual, non-contrived use case
 
5:26 AM
@Lalaland IIRC there's one in Microsoft's <functional>, from that time I turned that warning to error and back again after compilation failed from the header
> I've resolved it as By Design because our policy is to keep the STL's headers clean at /W4, but we make no attempt to be /Wall clean (this option enables literally all warnings, including off-by-default warnings like C4265).
 
user406009
@HubertApplebaum I think you can technically get away with nonvirtual destructors if you use shared pointers in a certain way.
 
"you're not supposed to see that warning so we don't have to fix it"
not "that's difficult to get right, and can only happen in very specific schenarios but we did it right"
 
@HubertApplebaum change to microsoft-so-broken-by-design and I'll star
 
yep I'm a starwhore
 
5:32 AM
and I openly star-bribe
 
@HubertApplebaum virtual destruction is a very specific use case
 
the jerks didn't even pragma out the warning
that's a useful warning, dammit. I wanna use it.
 
@LucDanton Is it really?
 
@HubertApplebaum well yeah, most things don’t have a virtual destructor
 
Yeah but how many polymorphic types have you used without a virtual dtor
 
5:35 AM
dunno, I don’t keep score
what I’m getting at is that there is a wealth of types out there that already handle not having a virtual destructor fine
add in a virtual function that’s not a destructor in the mix, what’s the difference?
 
for once I suppose you're not entirely wrong
 
@LucDanton I think I'm having a hard time grasping it, but I'll keep working on it. This still seems much more intuitive to me. :\
 
@jaggedSpire what’s the difference?
 
So
I finally have my academic project on GitHub
 
@LucDanton ...oh my god foo in your example was to demonstrate the information could be used at compile time I'm an idiot
 
5:47 AM
@jaggedSpire huh?
 
@VermillionAzure fun timez
 
@jaggedSpire ah no worries
I abbreviate a lot to keep it short but sometimes it’s too much
 
@VermillionAzure using static constexpr values as template arguments and function arguments
 
@jaggedSpire yeah what about it
 
@VermillionAzure I'm working on another answer to that question with the nice bounty, and asked Lounge for a sanity check
 
5:50 AM
@jaggedSpire link?
Trade questions
I wanna see if my answer is sane I answered that one you linked to a bit ago
 
@VermillionAzure the one you already posted an answer to. :P
@VermillionAzure this example is the most complete in terms of summarizing functionality, though I need to change the types to match his expectations
s/types/type names
 
@jaggedSpire huh?
what are oyu talking about
@jaggedSpire which one is that...
 
You asked for a link, which I assumed was to what I'm thinking for the question we're both talking about: the one I posted a link to earlier, and which you already answered
I provided an example
 
I'm really struggling to design testable C++ code :(
 
0
A: Describing pixel format information in C++ in a way that is usable at both compile-time and runtime

VermillionAzureThe solution I came up with involves three data structures: A type annotation enumeration: enum class pixel_type : char { }; A union-type containing the pixel data: union pixel_data { }; A struct to hold both, with a template parameter to specify the default type annotation: struct pixel{ }; ...

 
5:55 AM
...my sandwich isn't fitting in this container :(
 
@HubertApplebaum What do you mean?
 
:d
 
As I was saying yesterday, the two approaches I see obviously are a) Java/C# style: have every constructor accept components through their(virtual) interface (but I don't want to pay for virtual calls) and b) have every type be templated on its components (but then all code is in headers and that's a pain too)
Fuck this why am I even doing software
I wanted to be an artist
lalalaaaaaa
 
lala's vanished for a while we're the only loungecicles you have right now
@HubertApplebaum because for a brief time when you were naive you thought that code was beautiful too
 

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