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11:00 PM
I have to do Laplace transform using definition
 
user142019
La Place
 
Sounds math-y.
And therefore easy to do in ~Haskell~.
 
user142019
lol
 
Time to learn integration again
 
 
user142019
11:01 PM
@ThePhD Literally transliterate.
 
I seriously forget it every time I learn it
 
Incredibly, the Dutch lack a word for cheese? ^
We have Gouda after all
 
user142019
@sehe blue means worst, the rest is even worse.
 
user142019
@sehe tsiis
 
@Zoidberg Friezen.
 
user142019
11:02 PM
Friesland is Dutch so who cares.
 
@sehe Or, in Quebec, "fromâge".
 
user142019
Quatro fromaggi.
 
> I am still not sure if ranges solve any problem besides (allegedly) making code more clear, and this was an important question posed here.
I can't believe after all this time they still don't know what they are doing.
 
Op de radio gehoord: "Dat gedoe over dat paardenvlees.... Het zal een heleboel mensen worst wezen."
 
@EtiennedeMartel lol
 
11:04 PM
Gosh, if we get ranges in C++14, it seems likely it will be a piece of crap.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Who's they?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah, "they"
 
@sehe The people that participate in the ranges mailing list.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes We'll make our own, with hookers and blackjack!
 
@LucDanton Not really. Depends on the region.
 
@LucDanton Seriously.
 
11:05 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Them non-Texas rangers
 
I mean, come on, they don't even know what problems they are solving!
WTF
 
They don't even? Wow.
 
The ranges people? o_O;
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Erm. Maybe you could fill them in?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, where's Alexandrescu when you need him, hm?
 
11:05 PM
@sehe Oh so that's how you say 'horse'.
 
It seems people have been all this time clamouring for ranges for... aesthetic reasons?
WTF.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Busy doing double-D
 
@sehe Are we talking about tits again?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No. But people have been renouncing ranges for that reason :(
 
I thought that of all those people interested in ranges, someone would know what to fix.
ARGGHEEHRTH.
@sehe I need to take time to write someone that everyone can understand.
 
11:07 PM
q____________q
 
Can I quote you on this? Seems like these could be a few effective wake-up quotes.
 
For me the primary reasons to not want iterators is that iterators don't lend themselves to existing (i.e. you use them gladly, but you don't make them).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Then correct them.
 
Correct them with your mighty superior plastic chasis!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Haha. "Don't lend themselves to exisiting". I can see how that'd fluster some people.
To me ranges is about composition as well as contracts: a range will consist of iterators that "make sense" - it's not easy to get them mixed, backwards and stuff.
@DeadMG It's not about correcting, right. It's more about sharing motivation, convincing and hopefully enlightening
 
11:09 PM
@sehe Yeah, that's a good reason too. But sticking to that will lead to Boost.Range's design, and that is subpar.
 
Ell
I don't know what problem a range solves
 
@Ell No one does! Not even the people that want to put them in the standard!
 
well, since they clearly have no idea what the fuck they're doing, and he doesn't, then it's really correcting, as in they are wrong and he is making them correct.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I do.
 
@DeadMG I know. I was being a tad sarcastic.
 
Hello MATLAB long time no see
 
11:10 PM
A lot of people seem to thing it's about reimplementing the STL.
Like WTF.
> A big question that SG9 has to answer is why ranges? That is, what problem do ranges solve? This implementation will hopefully help to investigate that problem. Next, we discuss the differences and similarities between ranges and iterators.
There is already an implementation, written with the purpose of finding the problem!
 
fail.
 
@DeadMG Mmm. I'd say that attitude is probably a bit of a problem for you. But, it's your call. I see what you mean. However, I don't believe in telling others how they are wrong, when all they do is fail share a vision
 
eh
 
@CatPlusPlus Lucky you.
 
I think more like that I don't see any emotional impact in being corrected
 
11:12 PM
@DeadMG Yeah. Feel free to disregard.
 
whereas obviously other people thinks it implies that the corrected person is sub-par or something.
 
@EtiennedeMartel What's surprising is that this time I'm using it voluntarily
 
@DeadMG But others do, and ignoring that is likely to lead to your voice not being heard over the ensuing shouting.
 
@CatPlusPlus Well, I heard it works well.
I've seen a few people use it, and they did pretty cool stuff with it.
 
@DeadMG For me it's unrelated to emotion. It's more philosophical: it's not "wrong" for someone to have a different vision, even if it leads to trouble. People can be wrong on facts, though.
 
11:14 PM
They were math people, though, so maybe they're batshit insane.
 
At least the concepts in the implementation are not just Boost.Range and do allow for not-a-pair-of-iterators implementations.
 
well
it's sure as fuck wrong to try to deal with ranges when you don't know what problem they solve.
how can you possibly define a useful implementation or interface to a solution to a problem where you don't know the problem?
 
@DeadMG Yeah, that's just...
 
@EtiennedeMartel I want symbolic calculations and it sucks at displaying them currently
 
@DeadMG In my philosophical frame, if you will, they're not wrong on ranges. They're simply talking about something else (while using the same name)
 
11:15 PM
(That's what ticked me to this rant)
 
Ell
Just realised robot seemed angry for a second
6
 
@DeadMG The key here is "useful".
 
Ell
It's the beginning of the end
 
@Ell Nah.
 
Ell
Finally robotic beings rule the world
 
11:16 PM
It just seems to prove my hypothesis: that he's secretly a human.
 
@sehe The Committee has an obligation to not try to solve problems they know they don't understand.
 
@DeadMG I'll grant you that. But I'm sure they understand the problem you're not hoping they're trying to solve :)
 
@DeadMG The people in the mailing list are not necessarily in the committee, though.
 
true
 
Oh, come on. The implementation is a fork of libcxx Q_Q
 
Xeo
11:19 PM
Man, OC Remixes is just awesome.
 
And it's not even in a separate folder or anytihng.
It's just somewhere in there.
I won't chase after it today.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes hide-and-seek
 
r m
Hey is anybody here decent with XNA matrix manipulation?
 
The texture coordinates suddenly went to shit...
 
no one here is decent
With or without matrices
 
11:20 PM
@rm Right Handed, Row-Major matrix multiplications.
 
Ell
I'm naked (hence not decent)
 
That means to apply translation, rotation, and scale in the 'normal' way to something,
you need to do
 
@Ell Luckily, there's no exposure
 
Scale * Rotation * Translation
It is applied in the order of multiplication.
 
@Ell Yeah, I was, because ranges is one of the proposed features I really care about, and probably the one I am most familiar with, and seeing that the people responsible for it are missing the point so badly really upset me.
 
11:22 PM
wait, boost::end(a) where a is a range can be linear time? O.o Yeah, let's ditch that design.
 
@MooingDuck What.
 
r m
all i'm doing is rotation, i'm building a camera and i have it orbiting fine around the y axis but i am getting peculiar behavior trying to orbit around the x axis
 
Where is that?
 
http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_53_0/libs/range/doc/html/range/concepts/single_pass_range.html "Complexity guarantees
boost::end(a) is at most amortized linear time, boost::begin(a) is amortized constant time. For most practical purposes, one can expect both to be amortized constant time."
 
lol
I had no idea.
 
11:23 PM
amortized linear time :(
 
How the heck.
 
hold on while I iterate over my linked list to find my end...
 
r m
would you be willing to look at a few lines of code phd?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes when the range is not an iterator_pair but e.g. a start iterator and a count of items?
You noted before that having ranges that need not be iterator pairs is a nice thing?
 
Xeo
@sehe Then the iterators hold their current item and the index of the current item (with the current design), yielding O(1) end which just holds the total count.
What I find problematic with ranges based on iterators is that they both need to be of the same type (again, with the current design).
 
11:27 PM
@sehe None of the ranges I implemented here bitbucket.org/martinhofernandes/rtl are iterator pairs, and yet I have a generic iterator adaptor that can adapt any of them (for range-for) and only with constant time operations.
 
damn, man
it's time to finally stop waiting for it to be Tuesday.
 
Not much time to wait left.
 
@DeadMG huh? you missed tuesday :p
 
yeah
 
Xeo
You should be able to find the end of a range in O(1) at any time, I think. You either know it, or it's infinite, or you have an end condition which you can just check in the end iterator.
 
11:29 PM
I hate waiting
 
why are you waiting
 
I always get stuck in the "waiting" and never do anything
often even past the thing I'm waiting for.
 
Xeo
lol
 
@Xeo Really, just stick the damn bool in it.
For any non-trivial range end iterators end up special cased anyway.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Given that you already have a variety of implementations in hand, it might well be worth writing up a paper at least explaining what you've done, and what trade-offs you see between different implementation strategies. I do think it's a bit short sighted to dismiss them as completely missing the point though -- given the existence of Boost ranges, they're almost required to consider it for standardization, lacking knowledge of something else.
The committee charter points them toward codifying existing practice where possible, and Boost ranges clearly qualify as existing practice (no matter how sub-optimal they may be/are).
 
Xeo
11:32 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, maybe ranges should consist of a current iterator and a function that tells you whether it's the end, and for most, that just returns the held boolean.
 
@JerryCoffin First I'll collect a list of pain points with iterators so I can get more people to think about the non-trivial problems (and forget "I have to pass two things").
 
@Xeo Nope. I find that tri-iterator is the most reasonable solution.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG ?
 
you need at least three iterators per range, if you're making an iterator_range.
 
@DeadMG Amounts to the same.
I like to call the 'middle' iterator a cursor btw. That's preexisting terminology I'm sure.
 
11:33 PM
@Xeo An iterator+the bounds of the full range.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah
 
@LucDanton I'm not sure. There seems to be some use of it, for example Clang's C API, but that's the only time I've seen it used.
AFAICS it's basically an iterator but before we called them iterators.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I kind of suspect that's a little bit pointless -- if there wasn't pretty widespread recognition of pain points, they wouldn't have already formed a subcommittee on ranges. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but given limited resources, it might be better to concentrate on other things first.
 
3
Q: Cursor vs Iterator pattern

Robert DaileyIn numerous texts, I've seen the term cursor used interchangeably with the term iterator. However, it doesn't seem right that they are treated as the same thing. To me, an iterator allows iteration of a container with no knowledge of the container itself. A cursor, on the other hand, allows iter...

That sort of thing.
 
@JerryCoffin You didn't see the quotes from SG9 stating that they don't know what the problems are.
 
11:35 PM
@JerryCoffin A lot of the stuff that's been circulating over on the mailing list is about people not knowing what ranges are good for :(
 
Xeo
Aka they only know that "iterators are bad" but they don't know what exactly to replace them with?
 
@DeadMG I did see the quotes, but I think you are (or at least may be) misinterpreting them a bit. I think the uncertainty you're seeing is more a result of trying to keep an open mind than from simple ignorance.
 
Actually, it's been kind of quiet this past month.
They started with "what are the problems that ranges need to solve", but quickly moved to "how would one implement ranges".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes How much of that is from committee members, and how much from everybody else who signed up for the mailing list though?
 
@JerryCoffin I have no idea who is in the committee and who is not.
I am aware that it's not just people from the committee there. I actually pointed that out to the puppy above.
 
11:38 PM
As a sort of hybrid I have a non-iterator based range-ish, that when you call begin() on it instantiates a range in the Boost.Range sense (and the result of the call is an iterator to that).
 
1. Separate access and traversal categories.
2. Treat rvalues properly instead of effectively banning them.
3. Significantly simpler than iterators.
4. No exponential size increase (cue example of UTF-8 decoding).
5. Can effectively express move semantics, unlike iterators, and therefore uniquely own any necessary resources instead of needing shared ownership.
is what I've got so far
 
Xeo
@LucDanton I also remember hearing the term "cursor" somewhere before, but I can't pinpoint it. Maybe databases?
 
I think so.
 
Xeo
Mmm, Wikipedia confirms the terminology atleast.
> In computer science and technology, a database cursor is a control structure that enables traversal over the records in a database.
 
care to add anything to the list robot?
 
Xeo
11:41 PM
Although that thing has Proxy-properties, as was said in the question you posted.
 
@Xeo It's certainly used a lot when you access SQL from something like C. For SQL a result of a query is always a set, but you normally iterate over that with a cursor.
 
@Xeo Yeah. Cursors are crappy and everyone with a brain avoids them though (explicit iteration in SQL is crazy slow, because the declarative approach is so much easier to optimise)
@DeadMG Yes, I have other stuff. But I am going to sleep now. I'm very tired.
 
@DeadMG Define "simpler".
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Gut' Nacht.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Good night. Don't let the bed bugs bite sand muck up your gears.
 
11:43 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Bonne nuit!
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Buona notte!
 
@EtiennedeMartel Ranges should, in general, have fewer functions than iterators, and have simpler implementations.
 
@DeadMG is the option for optimized "random access" included in ranges with cursors?
 
yep
 
Xeo
I'm a bit conflicted with the "ranges should be able to give you the 'current' value", btw - I mean, for me, a range doesn't have such a "current" value, it's just a range. :/
 
11:47 PM
@Xeo That's the Boost meaning of range, yes.
 
@Xeo I agree.
 
@Xeo If the range doesn't have a "current" value, then you need an iterator to hold a "current" value, and then you're right back to iterators.
 
range should give me a handle/cursor w/e, which I can use with the range.
 
FTR I only have a cursor for range-for.
 
@MooingDuck You mean like, how std::vector<int> gives you an iterator?
 
11:48 PM
@DeadMG but the iterator can advance on it's own. Effectively I'm suggesting banning that.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG std::vector gives you two.
Just getting a single one from it doesn't make sense. And that's bad, we all agree I think.
 
@DeadMG also a builtin cursor seems silly when you need to deal with multiple positions in a single range.
 
@MooingDuck You can simply create multiple ranges, but I do kinda agree.
 
@DeadMG I'm thinking a quicksort would require NlogN ranges to be created.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG I'm not too sure. That the range itself, and access to elements within the range should be seperated, seems like a good thought, but I haven't put much time into pondering over ranges, really.
 
11:50 PM
@MooingDuck Even if you have iterators, you still need quite a few of them, and you won't need more ranges than you would iterators.
 
@DeadMG most iterators are far smaller/simpler than a range though.
 
@MooingDuck Quite a few of them are really not.
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Only for simple containers.
 
but secondly, you need multiple iterators where a single range would do.
 
Xeo
For any non-trivial range, the iterator itself effectively has to be able to tell if it's at the end. Especially for non-material ranges.
And then you just have redundancy with two iterators.
 
11:52 PM
if the iterator is complex, then the range would be proportionally complex wouldn't it?
 
@MooingDuck I think it should be something like Log(N) + K (for some small constant K).
 
@MooingDuck Not necessarily.
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Not really, see directly above your message.
 
the main issue with iterators is that the beginning and end are separated, but in many algorithms they both have to be known for operations like increment.
 
I also thought of an example, so I agree.
@DeadMG yeah, I understand that
 
11:53 PM
the thing is
I'm all good for some kind of cursor into a range.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Sadly, if you want to support range-for, you need to support old-style iterators in some way. :/ How do you materialise those iterators for range-for, btw?
 
but I just don't see how you're going to avoid the problems of iterators all over again.
 
I totally agree that requiring two iterators to work together is silly
 
@Xeo See ephemeral<T>
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes At one point, though, you're gonna want to actually iterate the result set (otherwise, you'd be better of not querying in the first place).
 
11:54 PM
@DeadMG I don't think a cursor needs to be a separate concept at all -- it's just a range that includes only a single item.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, und gute Nacht
 
@DeadMG in my mind, the cursor has no methods or functions. Pure private data, which the range operates on. Kinda like a HWND.
 
so you'd want something like range(cursor) to get the element there.
 
@DeadMG Maybe. But you wouldn't need to pass it around, right?
 
Xeo
@JerryCoffin So, practically a single-item-view into the range. But it should be seperated from the range, I think.
 
11:56 PM
@DeadMG that's what I'm thinking at the moment, yes
 
@sehe Dunno.
 
@JerryCoffin it needs to be able to retrieve "the" item though, so will have different methods.
 
@Xeo It's a separate object, but of the same type.
 
@JerryCoffin That's definitely bad.
you're way past iterators into bad.
 
Xeo
@JerryCoffin Meh, that just seems conceptually wrong.
 
11:57 PM
@JerryCoffin I dunno about the concept of iterating a "view" over a range. I kinda like it though....
 
Xeo
I mean, if it's the same type, it has to give you access to the current element - but what is the current element of a whole range?
 
@DeadMG Not in my experience. I guess, I agree with Xeo that "a range is a range", not "range plus iterator" for me. This echoes your own "separate access from traversal" if I understood that right
 
@Xeo or all ranges provide the option of access to the Nth element in linear time.
 
@sehe No, that's just about allowing lvalues and rvalues and such for random-access ranges and whatnot.
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Ew. That just plays against the "make it easy to do the right things, and hard to do the wrong things". :/
 
11:58 PM
@Xeo true. I've made a vector-interface-view-to-anything :/
 
tbh, all I've seen about cursors into ranges was effectively "cursors as iterators", I haven't considered any more advanced designs for that.
of course
 

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