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9:00 PM
@user190929 Well... This is the C++ room...
 
@user190929 not in the C++ room
 
@user190929: Why did you enter the C++ lounge to ask that :-)
 
user142019
Fuck Java bin that shit.
 
user142019
@AndyProwl inb4 only active room.
 
@ScottW Short answer: Sun doesn't do anything, because it no longer exists.
 
9:01 PM
I know, I know, but I wanted the opinion of people who know C++, because to me it seems very verbose, but people say it is a good thing.
 
user1182183
hm does anyone know a way to determine what adresses accesses/changes a - for example - hack/trainer in a process?
 
user142019
@user190929 it's terrible.
 
user142019
It's worse than C++' standard library.
 
user142019
(Which says quite a lot.)
 
Ell
It's not.
 
user142019
9:02 PM
It is.
 
user142019
Giant confusing class hierarchies.
 
@JerryCoffin That was back in 2009.
 
user142019
Take Haskell's library for example. Or Erlang's.
 
@user190929 It takes the worst parts of C (the syntax) marries it to the worst part of Smalltalk (byte codes and deep inheritance hierarchy), to produce a mess that's nearly without match.
 
user142019
They are very beatiful and not verbose and good.
 
9:03 PM
@user190929 A little, what do you want to know?
 
Well, given a library I have seen, It seems to be good when it is (A) consistent, and (B), simple - for example, I want to print something? That should be a one line function (to console). In Java, it appears as though I need about five layers of abstraction...
 
@Zoidberg I always found them a bit too terse for my tastes.
I never liked math notation to begin with.
 
1 + 2 = 3   -- what's not to like? :)
 
Well, I was trying to learn java - which I did, sort of - but I found the standard libary a bit appalling, and hard to understand, but others say the verbosity is good, so I was wondering if I was missing something.
 
user142019
@FredOverflow pattern matching! :D
 
user142019
9:04 PM
@user190929 why would you do such a thing to yourself. :(
 
user142019
Verbosity is bad.
 
@user190929 What book are you learning from? Doesn't that cover the important parts of the standard library?
 
user142019
Expliciticity is good, verbosity isn't.
 
user142019
Verbose means "with too many words", and anything with "too" in it is bad by definition.
 
Um... I forget. Some book on Java 7. Well, it covers it, but it strikes me as overly complex and abstracted, I guess.
 
9:05 PM
@Zoidberg tooring complete?
 
user142019
@FredOverflow Toomalak
 
@user190929 Just concentrate on the non-abstract parts ;)
 
@EtiennedeMartel Technically, Sun still existed at the time, but the negotiations to be bought out by Oracle were already in progress (and an agreement finalized within a couple of months, March of '09, if memory serves) so Sun was more or less in limbo at the time, doing virtually no new development beyond obvious upgrades to existing products.
 
user142019
@user190929 too abstract? Try Haskell. :)
 
@FredOverflow Tabbed in from somewhere else, did a double-take. Well done.
 
9:06 PM
@ThePhD Why the heck would you need random access?
 
I almost get the impression they abstract it BECAUSE it does not have enough "layers". I mean, I can see some OOP principles being good here, but at least currently, viewing java standard library code does not give me a "So this is what that does" on first glance, but I think it generally should.
 
Also what does "the character at..." mean?
 
user142019
@user190929 I never liked lasagna code.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, one of my friends was doing an internship at Sun's Montreal offices at the time. Let's just say the mood there wasn't great.
 
@user190929 Do you have an example?
 
user142019
9:07 PM
Too many layers of inheritance is bad.
 
have you guys seen this? code.org
 
user142019
(Inheritance at all is more often bad than good.)
 
I don't even like one layer.
 
also you can use 8.3 filenames and avoid quotes — se_pavel 5 hours ago
 
user142019
@bamboon it's terrible
 
9:08 PM
@JerryCoffin If those are the worst part of Smalltalk, should I deduce that you have an okay opinion of it?
 
Is this guy serious.
 
@Zoidberg itance means pussy, right? ;)
 
@Zoidberg I wouldn't have expected a different answer from you ;)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Looks like it.
 
Um... well, say the I/O. I mean, what have you got? Binary streams, character streams, print streams... seems they have 5 ways to do essentially the same thing. Buffered and non buffered...
 
user142019
9:09 PM
@FredOverflow :P
 
user142019
@bamboon haha +1
 
user142019
:3
 
@user190929 Some of those things don't sound like they are the same.
 
For starters, I don't even understand why avoid quotes would be goal.
And then... Yeah, 8.3. Sure.
 
Not strictly the same, no, but each of them is another layer of abstraction.
 
9:10 PM
> Every student in every school should have the opportunity to learn to code
wutno
 
@user190929 Oh, yeah, Java IO is shit.
 
user142019
Haskell has best I/O library.
 
(inb4 some replace pattern that removes "IO"; I'm looking at you, @Zoidberg)
 
I mean, in C++, you can choose binary or character mode. In java, those are two different objects and then some. It might be different with unicode, I am not sure.
 
user142019
Node.js' is also quite good except for the fucking fact it sucks at Unicode.
 
9:10 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Good shit or bad shit?
 
user142019
@EtiennedeMartel huh?
 
@FredOverflow "shit" implies bad. "the shit" implies good.
2
 
user142019
How can you remove I/O when you need to do I/O?
 
user142019
You cannot do I/O without I/O.
 
@Zoidberg You missed the point.
 
9:11 PM
@LucDanton Yes and no. I think pretty highly of the language itself, yes. For its time, the library was quite impressive, but it definitely has some oddities too.
 
@Zoidberg You can do I/O without IO, though.
 
user142019
@FredOverflow yes, FFI, but that's evil as fuck.
 
Yeah, Node.js is quite code.
 
Although I admit, the concept of for each is pretty good. C++11 is adding that, correct? For something anyway. Collections I imagine.
 
@Zoidberg They had at least two different approaches before they discovered Monads.
@user190929 yes
 
9:12 PM
@JerryCoffin I thought C++ gots its OO parts from Simula?
 
user142019
Objective-C is Smalltalk-style, C++ is Simula-style.
 
@EtiennedeMartel He's talking about Java.
 
@Zoidberg Doesn't FFI use IO?
 
@FredOverflow I thought Java got its OO parts from C++?
 
user142019
@R.MartinhoFernandes if your FFI function is pure, you can return a instead of IO a.
 
user142019
9:13 PM
(You can do that anyway if you're evil; compiler cannot tell.)
 
@LucDanton I should probably add that I'm probably at least somewhat biased on the subject though: long ago, I wrote quite a bit of a Smalltalk implementation; at the time, I had much stronger opinions about which parts were great and which just sucked so badly the people who invented them should be shot (or worse).
@EtiennedeMartel Definitely more from Simula than Smalltalk, anyway.
 
Who would think such things.
 
user142019
foreign import ccall "sin" c_sin :: CDouble -> CDouble
-- sin is pure, hence no IO!
 
@LucDanton The puppy.
 
@Zoidberg How does Haskell make sure that sin is pure?
 
user142019
9:14 PM
@FredOverflow it can't.
 
@Zoidberg CDouble? The fuck is this? Looks like Hungarian notation.
 
user142019
You have to tell it by returning a instead of IO a.
 
user142019
@EtiennedeMartel C as in the language C.
 
user142019
It's a C double.
 
user142019
You need to use CDouble, CInt and friends when interfacing with C.
 
9:15 PM
@Zoidberg That's vague.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Type constructors have to start with a capital, so there's Double. CDouble consequently is the double-precision floating point type from the C side of things.
 
user1182183
I don't know if I should use the [shared-memory] tag in my question ? is it appropriate?
 
Because it doesn't say anything about the underlying representation.
 
user142019
It can't, because that differs between ABIs.
 
Yeah I think I got that wrong. It may just be Pascal case.
 
user142019
9:16 PM
It's an abstraction.
 
@GamErix Is your question about concurrency?
 
user142019
It's the kind of double you use when interfacing with C.
 
user1182183
@FredOverflow no, just to find out what a hack accesses in my game/program
 
Pretty sure that's not what is about.
 
Hack detection?
 
user1182183
9:17 PM
@EtiennedeMartel yes and reverse engineering trainers : 4
 
Would people here recommend learning haskel? I think it would be good for the sake of learning a new paradigm, but I am not quite sure. Sounds like some things learned would be useful, as in the side effects and more thread safe part.
 
user1182183
2 uses
 
@user190929 yes
 
We have a whole haskell clique going on here
 
@GamErix A hack will almost always use something like ReadProcessMemory and WriteProcessMemory, not shared memory.
 
user1182183
9:18 PM
@JerryCoffin ok thanks, updated
 
@user190929 The only people here who recommend Haskell are crazy.
 
I'm in the top 10% of the tag. Interesting.
 
user142019
@EtiennedeMartel and some people who are not me.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So random.
 
@EtiennedeMartel isn't that what they say about people who use C++?
 
9:19 PM
@Zoidberg Fred is crazy too.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Oy.
 
"Une araignée dans le plafond"
 
The only people here not recommending Haskell are too dumb to learn it
2
:v:
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yes, but all the people here (at least the regulars) are crazy, so that doesn't mean much.
 
Ping-pong at this hour is a lousy idea
 
user142019
9:21 PM
@CatPlusPlus Well said!
 
@CatPlusPlus Ping-pong is too strenuous. :-)
 
user1182183
@CatPlusPlus I'm not "not recommending" Haskell, but neither am I recommending it. So I am not dumb. Pwnt . ;P
 
@CatPlusPlus s/dumb/lazy/
 
@CatPlusPlus Add "Tennis Grunts"
 
@CatPlusPlus What does speaking ability have to do with learning Haskell?
 
user142019
9:24 PM
@CatPlusPlus look! Seven plinks in a row!
 
Ell
@Zoidberg verbose doesn't mean too does it?
 
user142019
@Ell it does.
 
@MooingDuck Rvalues are also older than that!
 
Ell
and if it does, then calling java "verbose" as an argument for it's badness is stupid
that's like saying
 
user142019
verbose |vəːˈbəʊs|
adjective
using or expressed in more words than are needed
 
user142019
9:25 PM
More than needed = too.
 
Ell
"Noo C++ is bad because it's too difficult"
"Java is bad because it's too wordy"
 
user142019
too |tuː|
adverb
1 [ as submodifier ] to a higher degree than is desirable, permissible, or possible; excessively
 
Ell
meh.
ignore me xD
 
@zoidberg did you google "define verbose" like me?
 
@Ell Ignore him.
 
9:26 PM
@Ell No less than Bjarne himself has said that C++ is too "expert friendly".
 
user142019
@user190929 I looked in Oxford Dictionary.
 
@Ell Er, no, it's not stupid
 
@zoidberg ah. Or maybe that is where google draws from. I am not quite sure how it works, but probably from Oxford, yes.
 
@Zoidberg That looks like a British accent.
 
user142019
Java is annoying and boring.
 
user142019
9:27 PM
Hence it's bad.
 
@Ell Likewise, the verbosity of Java is a real problem -- understanding a large system written in Java takes quite a bit of extra time just to deal with the volume of source code involved.
 
user142019
No matter what other (counter)arguments there may be.
 
user142019
Annoying and boring are most important.
 
posted on February 26, 2013 by Sana Mithani

The C++ REST SDK (codename "Casablanca") has officially been released as an open source project on CodePlex (http://casablanca.codeplex.com). We first announced Casablanca as an incubation project on Microsoft's DevLabs back in April of 2012. Since then we have had several releases and have seen library quickly evolve. As we added new features and received feedback from customers, it was evi

 
@Zoidberg Actually, no -- there's one that's even worse: most of what Java is used to implement would be annoying and boring regardless of language. Therefore, not only is Java currently annoying and boring, but even if the language itself were drastically improved, using it would remain annoying and boring anyway.
 
user142019
9:30 PM
So it sucks for eternity!
 
That is a long time...
 
Oh yeah, lambdas were delayed.
 
user1182183
yeah why Java, pawn, lua, perl, php, C#, VB.NET, VB, pascal, delphi, ..................................................... ... if we have C++!
 
Well, it's been a long but productive day of moderating for me and a nice day hanging in Lounge<C++>. I really should sleep. Night all
 
so guys...how many spaces for a tab? :3
 
Ell
9:32 PM
4
 
2 or 4
 
(Why am I spending time in a room about a programming language I do not know or use)
 
@BoltClock Later. Sleep well.
 
probably 4 though
 
user1182183
I love 4
 
Ell
9:32 PM
but srs, just use a tab for indentation, space for align
 
4? 8? 3? 7?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh I just remembered, am I supposed to use -Og for everything now?
 
4 and what Ell said.
 
@JerryCoffin Thanks :)
 
@BoltClock why are we!?
@Ell or, and this is a crazy idea, use something that works for every one who reads your file?
 
9:33 PM
whew. I've always used 4, because 8 just seem too wasteful.
 
A lot of the code at my place of employment uses 3. It drives me insane.
 
Ell
@thecoshman I still don't understand why it doesn't work o.O
 
I don't know why 8 is recommended. Either it is to large or my blocks go up to high... but it does not take that much.
 
@Ell how big is a tab?
 
Ell
however big you want it to be
 
9:34 PM
Fuck tabs code is not a fucking table
2
 
@user190929 I forgot what it is.
Oh, right, optimize but allow better debugging.
 
Also mixing tabs and spaces is the most wrong option you can pick
 
@Ell nope, it is an undetermined amount of white space up to one full tab-stop wide
 
@BoltClock because this room is the most entertaining, of course.
 
@BoltClock Because you love us!
 
9:35 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, I checked. So not for everything. Also I've been using -g all this time and now I learn I was supposed to use -g3.
 
4 spaces are, and always will be for every one, 4 spaces
 
Because you contracted Loungeitis
6
 
user1182183
hm maybe we have some specs' here?:
 
user1182183
0
Q: Determining what memory/values a remote application accesses/changes?

Gam ErixLets take an example here which is known everywhere in the IT world: We have a game, for example solitaire, and someone makes and releases a trainer for it that your moves are always '0'. How do I programatically determine which adresses and what values that "hack" changes? What way would be ...

 
user1182183
9:36 PM
@CatPlusPlus it was worth trying :p
 
user142019
BUT TABS COMPILES FASTER BECAUSE LESS BYTES
 
Fuck it, shut up about tabs already.
 
user1182183
@Zoidberg hhahaha xd
 
user1182183
srsly?
 
What if I told you, you could ask a question on Stack Overflow and not post it here?
 
user142019
9:37 PM
@GamErix it's all-caps. ಠ_ಠ
 
@thecoshman I'm seeing Conspiracy Keanu
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you just need some space right?
 
Does anybody know how (on Windows 7) to restrict how much memory a program uses? I find stories of the old days where memory was precious, I I like the idea of trying to fit in stuff like that, but I am not sure how to best test it.
 
user1182183
 

The Great Indentation War

Fight to the death here.
(If it's not clear, I'm politely telling you bitches to get the fuck out)
 
9:38 PM
And take image macros with you
 
@GamErix Fresh out of Ran out of fucks far too long ago
 
user1182183
@R.MartinhoFernandes (you forgot to add: if you talk about bytes/tabs)
 
oooh, look at the robot trying to be mean
 
yeah Robot, why are you playing with our compulsive need to click on links?
 
@user190929 Create a job object. Restrict RAM usage of the job object. Run the program in that job.
 
9:39 PM
There's also a compulsive need to check the starboard
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Btw inheriting constructors are awesome. I already found some goats workarounds to some bugs already, in case you need them in the future.
 
@JerryCoffin would that be part of the WinAPI?
 
@LucDanton 4.8, right?
 
Workagoat
 
Since most work I do these days with GCC is on ogonek, I'm sticking with release versions. I don't want really to keep track of temporary workarounds on that :/
 
9:40 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes. It came so late that it's probably not going to be as polished as the rest imo. (E.g. until one or two weeks ago you couldn't even inherit foo(int&&);)
 
@BoltClock Because you like us obviously.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes In the future. Anyway, maybe those things will get ironed out in time for the release, who knows.
 
Ell
@thecoshman exactly? you like 4 spaces - that's cool! I like 17 - that's also cool! You can have what you want!
 
Well, Ogonek 1.0 won't be out before GCC 4.8, I think.
 
(Emphasis because you're supposed to play futuristic sounds in your head as you read it.)
 
My plan is to target Unicode 6.3, which comes out on Q3.
 
I forget when 4.7.2 was released in relation to 4.7. That's the good stuff right?
 
@JerryCoffin Yes, not sure why I asked, was reading on MSDN. That should do the trick, yes. Next question is what to due with limited memory.
 
Oh, September.
 
@user190929 forkbomb :p
 
9:44 PM
@Ell You know that breaks your precious alignment you've done with spaces right
Also
 
@melak47 Hm... interesting idea. Using limited memory to use up all the memory... haha
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus why? o.O
 
Shut up about tabs already (we know you're a badlet and can't indent your code stop talking). Robot even made a room for you
6
@Ell Try it
 
No one fucking cares.

The Great Indentation War

Fight to the death here.
Deal with it there.
 
meh, I thought it was bedtime
I suck
 
9:47 PM
There's even a starpoll pinned.
 
kill me now
that room should not need to exist
 
user1182183
@TonyTheLion pew pew pew
 
oh thanks, I feel dead now
 
user1182183
no problem mate :P
 
user1182183
9:52 PM
so everyone moved to that war... I feel forever alone ; >
 
user1182183
dammit i''m joining then.
 
Ell
Heh
 
@CatPlusPlus what's a 'badlet'? 'bellend'?
 
a small bad guy?
like a piglet is small pig
and a humanlet is a small human :P
 
and a fucklet is more fucks then I give ¬_¬
2
 
9:54 PM
lol
 
@TonyTheLion It's a helldump, go there and insult everyone
 
If you don't give fucks, do you get fucks?
@CatPlusPlus That would be a waste of my time
 
And vote for tabs on the starpoll.
 
user142019
@TonyTheLion I once heard somebody say that a dicklet is a small dick.
 
Ell
heh
 
9:55 PM
hahah
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You mentioned the 't' word!
 
@TonyTheLion I don't give a fuck
 
where's my star bitch?
meh
I'm heading to bed
GF is heading away for a wee holiday, I have duties
night all
 
ohhhh duties
Not giving a fuck is not a reason for a star
If you gave no fucks in style, then maybe you may have gotten a star
 

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