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1:00 AM
I think that I blame someone more if they are just being political.
but I'd blame anyone for doing it for any reason.
when you're in a democracy, you give the people what they want.
 
Even if they want genocide-to-be?
 
@Joe yeah. The media. Or, economists with average IQ. Pretty close to the same deal, really
 
well, obviously if I was voting in 1932 or whatever, I wouldn't know that I'd be voting for genocide.
 
True.
 
but ultimately, yes.
simple fact is, economic collapse is a terrible thing.
but if the government effectively ceases to function, economic collapse is guaranteed- and a lot worse on top.
the worst possible outcome for poor economic policy is a hell of a lot better than the worst possible outcome for no effective government.
 
1:02 AM
ITT: ... in which the conversation itself was clearly drunk, and unable to keep a clear line
 
I see.
I had an idea a bit back.
 
Everybody: on the floor!
 
I would say in most cases, government is not run like a business.
 
@Pawnguy7 Let me just mail this incident to the international media for you.
 
Would you agree?
 
1:04 AM
hmm.
not always.
 
He cannot be phazed.
 
different businesses are run in different ways.
 
True, but if you are losing money, you change something.
 
right.
I would say that government has to adhere to that tenet as well.
they just operate on a bigger scale, both financially and time-wise, and the issues are more complex.
 
Now, I think, however minor it may be, when you are using money that is not your own, you are not as concerned with the spending thereof.
What if you had a situation where...
 
1:05 AM
that's definitely something I would disagree with.
 
You wouldn't?
 
some people are cavalier with borrowed money, but I know that I'm paranoid about spending borrowed money.
 
So am I, but I am not the many people in the government.
 
and I think that most people that don't have an overabundance of money do not expend it recklessly.
 
Unless they don't have money because they spent it recklessly.
 
1:07 AM
that kind of lesson is a life lesson that happens to people
 
In any case, there are always corrupt people.
So here is the idea:
 
and on a national scale, you could argue it happens to governments too.
 
If you, say, made a budget, somehow.
and were personally accountable for if it goes over.
 
Some stage last month, I had $5400 sitting on the savings account and -$6000 on my credit card. By doing this for 30 days I make $20 in interest
 
Now, this is obviously not going to work.
But something of this sort, would be interesting.
 
1:08 AM
well, yeah, because there's no way that anyone could recover money from me if there was an overspend, due to the scales involved.
but on the other hand, going bankrupt would be a critical problem.
 
Finance is the fine art of cash flow, expecially from others bank account into yours >_<
 
so even if you made me liable for only 0.1% of overspending or 0.0001% of overspending
anyway, I don't think that's going to work
it's normal for governments to over and under spend by a small amount each year.
 
I don't know, this is not my area of expertise or research.
 
it's just not possible to calibrate taxes that precisely.
 
Might it be that there is a... feel-bad mentality?
 
1:10 AM
hmm.
 
Let's imagine somebody was running a region of the USPS, over several... locations.
Let's say one location really needs to be closed down.
But that regional manager feels bad for firing people.
Do you think this occurs?
 
do I think that occurs on a national level?
 
#wtf Cameron: "I don't want to have to use injunctions or D notices or the other tougher measures" - #socivilized I sense another #ukstorm
 
@DeadMG on any level, in the government
 
@Pawnguy7 Yes.
 
1:13 AM
But if you were paying them personally, and gathering debt.
 
IME, you don't get far assuming that people are cold-hearted motherfuckers who would sell their grandmothers for a penny.
 
Wouldn't you let them go?
 
@Pawnguy7 I'd let them go anyway.
 
Let's imagine a really nice person :D
 
look
 
1:14 AM
@Pawnguy7 Done
 
if their position is not financially viable
it's not financially viable.
there's nothing that your well wishes can do about it.
if you continue to support it, all that's going to happen is that your business will become financially unviable, and everybody will lose their jobs.
 
Is this not similar to the situation of handling the money of other's?
 
well, of course it is.
 
If it is your own money, you handle it differently.
 
1:15 AM
@Pawnguy7 No I don't.
 
Well, some people do.
 
sure they do.
 
Like the person that doesn't fire people.
 
well, let me just state this
I accept that the range of human behaviour is very high, and that just as there are people who won't fire anyone even when they have to do it to save their business, there are people who take joy in firing others and would do it at any excuse
but what I do believe is that most humans fall in the middle, they don't do what they don't have to do, and they will do what they do have to do.
 
Seems valid.
I probably am not mean enough to run a business.
Or... whats the word.
Well, you know what I mean.
 
1:18 AM
yeah.
 
So, DeadMG for president?
 
in my personal experience
I will go to quite some lengths to avoid doing unpleasant things
but I have mostly been able to get them done.
 
That is good. I think.
 
eh
I think that my emotions run a little higher than they should do.
sometimes a lot higher.
I wish I could re-tune my brain circuitry.
it seems to be defective to me all too often.
 
Ugh. Finally.
3:20 AM and I'm finally done with Philosophy :v
 
1:21 AM
@MohammadAliBaydoun What did you learn?
 
That Sigmund Freud is a fucking badass
 
That reminds me.
Somebody finally made a commercial with the tree falls in forest concept.
I seem to have forgotten the point of (name)'s cat though.
 
If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
If a nigger steals a bike and no one is around to see it, does he go to jail?
Anyway, good night man
 
oh god
 
Aren't those different?
 
1:24 AM
you're one of those "KILL ALL THE NIGGERS" morons.
 
kindly gtfo and never come back.
 
No I'm not
 
I thought it was a joke. Albiet a racist one.
 
tell it to the plonk.
 
1:25 AM
It is a joke
 
Speaking of plonks.
I think sehe is insulting me much more recently, so I assume I am no longer ignored :D
 
@Pawnguy7 What you usually find is that many people who have tendencies like racism try to keep it quiet because they know it's wrong.
when they realize they made a mistake and it's there for all to see, then suddenly, it's like, "Just a joke!".
 
@MohammadAliBaydoun comparing social [norms vs. stereotypes] to [laws of nature vs. philosophy]. Are you nuts? Next you'll be comparing PHP's type system to the expressiveness of Lisp
 
@sehe I am completely aware of the fact that they are irrelevant and I knew that before saying it.
 
@DeadMG I wouldn't know. Especially given the context of the Lounge.
Surely this isn't the first racist joke.
 
1:27 AM
@MohammadAliBaydoun So. Awaiting the language comparisons...
 
@Pawnguy7 Well, for me, it's been an education ever since I got pretty sick
I started playing on the American SC2 servers, because the European ones are mostly empty at this kind of time.
and it's amazing how about 50% of the people there are like, "KILL ALL THE FUCKING NIGGERS".
 
It was an attempt at a black joke.
 
I don't know. I also saw people saying the terrorists were right with 9/11 (on 9/11).
If they are serious, we have bigger problems.
 
To make a black joke is not analogous to asserting that black people should die :V
They are unrelated
Or at least, not totally identical
 
not that I'm really down with the whole "Killing thousands of innocent people" thing
but as far as I am aware, the US did do a very large number of very dickish things in a very alrge number of places prior to that.
and frankly, I'm not sure what else those people could have done.
 
1:32 AM
Because people who have the kind of mindset that DeadMG is describing probably make nigger jokes, but people who make nigger jokes are not necessarily people who want to kill black people :V
 
of course the whole war on terror thing has only made it worse.
 
@DeadMG does that justify it?
 
Plus, it would be pretty weird for me to have that mindset. There are black people in my family for fucks sake :||
 
@Pawnguy7 No. But then, as far as I'm aware, many of the US's actions were unjustified.
 
One of my best friends happens to be black in fact
 
1:33 AM
@MohammadAliBaydoun is this to me? I am not sure if I am meant to respond.
 
@Pawnguy7 No, I'm talking to myself ;_;
 
@DeadMG Probably. As you said, it seems most countries have a skeleton in the closet, so to speak.
@MohammadAliBaydoun My sarcasm detector is picking up something.
 
@Pawnguy7 I agree.
the British ones tend to be a lot more in the past, though.
 
@Pawnguy7 Must be a faulty detector~
 
whereas a lot of the American ones seem to be much more current.
 
1:35 AM
@Pawnguy7 Anyway, good night man
 
@MohammadAliBaydoun night
In your opinion, then, can violet protest be justified? Freedom fighting, or whatever they call it now?
If so, that is a dangerous world.
 
hmm
such tactics only make sense as a very last resort.
I'd only employ them if the enemy could not be reasonable or employed such tactics himself.
 
Reasonable is a subjective thought, though.
 
sure.
 
Is the only measuring stick the current world thought?
 
1:39 AM
but I think that I'd go with "Overthrowing the legally elected government of our country to get someone more favourable to them" as pretty unreasonable.
 
Who is them in this situation?
 
the US
 
In the war on terror?
 
no, that's what they did in Iran
the CIA
 
I played a game once. It was... well, not just a game. It has a morale, sort of. You are an oil person. There is a situation presented in the future.
If you kill some people in third world countries that nobody cares about, you can get enough oil.
I can see that happening.
What do you think?
 
1:42 AM
hi guys, what are you talking about? oh...uh...
 
@melak47 something about government. Or racist jokes. I lost track.
 
I obviously would not be inf avour of killing them
 
Humanity as a whole, I mean.
 
although AFAIK, that is essentially what many US companies have done.
 
when it gets down to it, I wouldn't be surprised if people got thrown out of the bus.
Survival instinct, somewhat.
 
1:44 AM
god dammit stupid sync services, y no no have .blaignore files
I don't wanna sync hundreds of MBs of build files over my phone >:(
 
I wouldn't be either.
but oil isn't about survival, it's about money.
the US consumers want their luxuries
not that other nations haven't done similar things.
 
Well.
Not survival persay.
Enough to go to war for anyway, according to the simulation.
 
the real reason it's enough to go to war for is that the population is too large.
they got used to easy resources so their population grew unsustainably.
now the only reason they can survive is by taking from others
 
What is the solution? Do you go the China route?
 
define China route
 
1:49 AM
Child limiting laws.
 
too late for that in most Western countries.
 
Why so?
 
because
the US population is like, 300 million people.
there's nowhere near enough oil in the US for them.
if you limit population growth all you can do is slow down how fast it grows, but it's already much too large.
 
A bad situation is better than a terrible one, I suppose.
 
true
but the other thing is that the population of most Western countries is already close to stagnant.
educated women just don't pump out that many babies, to put it crudely.
it's much of the less developed world that needs population controls right now.
their growth rates are insane and often, they simply can't feed much of their existing population.
they're in serious danger of things like famine and drought related population collapses.
 
1:53 AM
I guess this brings us to the concept of people hoping for a virus to come and kill people.
Or making one.
 
a very drastic and probably quite unnecessary solution.
 
The world has so many problems :(
 
but the perceived problem is very real.
 
well you two have fun, I'm going to bed :)
 
@Pawnguy7 Right. The core, core, core issue is that there are only a finite amount of available resources on the Earth, and available to any specific nation, and our ancestors extracted almost all of the most readily available ones without much thought as to what to do when it ran out.
 
1:56 AM
DeadMG is talking to his Paw ^_^
 
Haha.
 
some resources like iron are almost essentially unlimited, since the Earth is made up of so much iron.
but many are not.
the world is starting to move in the right direction with recycling and looking for indefinite energy sources like wind/solar.
 
@DeadMG we'll just switch to iron based computing :E
 
but it's expensive and slow.
and of course, the production of a solar power panel requires electricity from fossil fuels and such.
I just hope we have enough consumables remaining to produce the non-consumables we need.
there could, of course, be a miracle technology solution, like a working fusion power plant
but only fools depend on such things occurring.
 
While we are on that. It is likely that people need to be pushed to... try expanding in these areas. Cars, for example.
 
1:59 AM
they will be pushed when the oil eventually runs out
people can bitch about the inconvenience of electrical cars all they like, but it would sure beat a massive price of petrol.
 
Would you say it is worth it to potentially hurt companies - or, have the government itself research - in an attempt to better these technologies?
 
absofuckinglutely.
if we don't succeed in creating renewables to power our society, it will simply cease to survive when the consumables run out.
that would be an unacceptable burden on our children
 
I seem to recall a qoute related to that.
Something about, the world only need care about the current generation, or something.
 
@DeadMG Speaking of which, solar energy is making progress, last I heard researchers are on the brink of getting past 50% efficiency or something
 
> Dad, how do you expect us to live on this used up planet?! -- I don't expect you to live, I expect you to die, Mr. Bond!
 
2:04 AM
@Borgleader A lot of research has promise. The problem is that we don't invest enough.
 
@DeadMG No disagreement there
 
I don't have statistics on this. How much power can be gotten from renewable means, relatively?
 
all of it, if we invest enough.
it's not THAT unfeasible to convert our energy needs to renewable.
but a large initial investment is needed.
and in some cases, like wind farms, a lot of land.
 
@Borgleader Plants can do about 95%, IIRC.
nobody quite understands how.
 
2:08 AM
I read about mushrooms once.
Kind of wish I didn't.
Now I know, they are like icebergs O.o
@DeadMG All of it as in current production levels, or?
 
@DeadMG it's obvious then - we must mutate or engineer a plant that can do photosynthesis in earth orbit and feeds on space debris, and emits microwaves towards certain locations on earth
 
@Pawnguy7 We can meet our future electricity needs that way- it's not outside the realm of reason. Renewables aren't impossibly expensive $ per MW.
the real problem is systems that require very high energy densities- for example, cars.
 
Higher densities than can be regionally provided? Not certain what you mean.
 
@Pawnguy7 No.
petroleum has a ridiculously high energy density- far higher than batteries that we can affordably produce right now.
 
Ah.
 
2:15 AM
some applications of energy, it's just like, "Send X many electrons down the wire" and you're done.
but with something like a car, the space limitations are quite serious.
and the heavier the fuel, the more fuel it costs to move it around in the car.
for these applications you really need something like maybe hydrogen fuel cells, or perhaps we will simply discover superior batteries.
 
Do battery improvements have noticable climb, or is it... random?
 
hmm.
 
Goddamn... So I had been chasing a bug over the weekend that I thought I had introduced because of some refactoring...
Guess what the culprit turned out to be?
 
I believe that much of our technology has plateaued, and we will see only incremental improvements, relatively speaking.
we will see big jumps again when quantum computers.
the core issue is that non-trivial quantum systems require computational power that scales exponentially.
so it's very difficult to simulate useful quantum systems.
and if we wish to build more advanced quantum systems, which is the next generation of our technology, then we need the power to simulate them effectively.
which is why I personally would rank quantum computation above fusion power as the highest value invention of the future.
@Mysticial What was it?
 
I checked out SDL today, to see what the C equivalent to what I have been doing was.
I miss SFML so much :\
 
2:21 AM
lol.
 
I wonder if that is a bad thing.
 
eh, not necessarily.
it's more than possible that SDL is much better than SFML
 
@DeadMG The memory on my newly build computer was unstable.
 
but being a C API makes it not very accessible comparatively.
 
It was stable enough to trick me into thinking it was my code.
But then I let it run a stress-test today while I was away for work.
Came back in the evening to see a ton of errors - only on the memory-intensive tests.
 
2:25 AM
@Mysticial never heard of such issue - memory on a newly built computer is unstable
Most likely some logic error in your code
 
lol
that's gotta suck.
 
@User17 The memory is rated at 1833. But the BIOS auto-selected 1600. I couldn't get it to post with 1833. So I looked up my model to find out what settings it needed to run at 1866. So I entered 4 of those timings and and left the rest on default.
That worked.
The machine booted. Passed all the basic tests. I thought it was stable.
Then this weekend, I noticed some heisenbugs that only happened on very large tests.
 
@DeadMG From what I have seen so far, I am skeptical. Not that I know everything about SDL.
 
And I had trouble reproducing them.
 
well I'm not going to tell you that SDL is the greatest thing ever, or even very good.
 
2:27 AM
Then last night, I ran my auto-tuner. Which crashed in the middle of the night.
 
just don't dismiss it just because it's a C API.
 
I saw what test it crashed on. So I ran that one in the morning - no crash.
 
Hardly.
I was fond of WinAPI, slightly.
But like... SDL redefines main :\
 
Then I pulled out an old version of the program which I know is stable. Ran that over the day while I was at work.
 
Well, technically, defines it.
 
2:28 AM
@Pawnguy7 All too common I'm afraid.
 
It is?
 
I came back 10 min. ago to find that it's still running. But it's erroring on the memory-intensive test.
 
@Mysticial When is youtube switching over to VP9? Are you allowed to say? :P
 
No.
 
@Borgleader lol, I don't even know. I can probably find out though.
 
2:29 AM
@Pawnguy7 Yep.
 
I looked it up, and saw it was something about initialization, which makes me wonder, because there is also SDL_Init(SDL_SOMESYSTEM).
 
So now I need to figure out what other memory timings I need to relax to get this memory stable.
 
And SDL_Quit, which apparently magically cleans up windows,but you need to free surfaces yourself.
Oh.
 
yeah OK that's really bad.
 
And things like loading a .png are modules.
So I can SDL_LoadBMP, or IMG_Load.
 
2:30 AM
@User17 But I take it you've never heard of a hardware error have you?
 
I didn't even get into audio.
 
@Mysticial what's hardware?
 
lol
 
I kind of wonder what the internals of these API's are.
Since they own everything.
Is the C version of an enum #defines?
Or const ints?
 
most people use #define because a C const int isn't constexpr like C++.
for example, if you do static const int x = 5; int main() { int arr[x]; } you'll get a VLA rather than a static array.
 
2:36 AM
@Pawnguy7 Back in the dark ages, yes--but C has had enum since around the mid-1980's or so (could be early '80's--even I can't remember that far back with real certainty any more).
 
but C++ inherited enum from C.
 
Looks like some of SDL is enums for flags.
And some #defines that evaluate to several flags?
Wait, no, those are #defines too. Hrm.
So yes, I am definitely motivated to get SFML to work.
I just don't know what to try.
 
I just prefer to work with the underlying APIs
DX, etc.
 
I tried learning GL once.
 
GL is terrible,
DX better
 
2:41 AM
Might be. I don't imagine it is easy to learn, though. From my position.
Not to mention the lack of cross platform.
 
actually
it's really not that bad.
and the cross-platform, IMO, doesn't matter unless you are not a Windows user yourself.
 
That is the interesting part, yes. I do use Windows, and don't have access to anything else to make builds for them.
But I still like the idea.
 
me too.
Wide is totally cross-platform except for the part where it won't link on Linux and I can't understand why.
 
Linux :D
Anyway though.
I feel it would take me forever to reach near what SFML does.
 
all I've seen you do with SFML is handle a little input, render a couple textures.
 
2:45 AM
True.
Not sure about rendering text though.
 
hmm.
 
According to Bartek, it isn't pretty.
 
@DeadMG I know we've discussed this before, and you won't admit it, but the fact is: GL is terrible -- and DX is drastically worse still.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, it's just my personal experience that DX is really not that bad. You can, of course, disagree if you wish.
@Pawnguy7 You can use DirectWrite and it's OK. I couldn't understand the samples for loading a font from a file, though- they really over-engineered that part of it.
 
I wonder if that would be a useful learning experience.
 
2:49 AM
@Pawnguy7 ditching your console text stuff? :p
 
@DeadMG Yeah. Who the hell specifies kerning and spacing and all that stuff when all you want is loading a font. Still, I think it's a good API especially along with Direct2D.
 
well, a nice wrapper on D3D is on my to-do list.
 
I read that win8.1 renders the desktop with direct2d instead of d3d. ...but isn't d2d implemented on top of d3d? :p
 
@melak47 Well, I made what wrapper I could. I just didn't know what to do with it.
 
@melak47 Yep. But D2D comes with many 2D-specific APIs and is generally more flexible.
 
2:51 AM
@melak47 Yes. And perhaps it'll make it slower.
 
@MarkGarcia ...why would they do that
 
but honestly, I've got a lot of stuff to do with Wide right now.
I'm in the middle of ripping the guts out of so many systems, it's like, "So much work to do before it even compiles again!".
 
It seems most of the time I have that feeling, it never does compile again.
 
yeah I used to do that too.
 
and if it does, it doesn't work! :D
 
2:52 AM
but not since I succeeded in compiling the first Wide program.
 
@melak47 I don't know. :P Still, the same old rule goes: more abstraction ~= performance penalty. Though considering that Win8's graphics' is snappy all over...
 
Think I would learn anything building on on Windows API's?
 
@Pawnguy7 you would learn to get sick of winapi I suppose :)
 
@Pawnguy7 I thought it worked out for me.
 
Not as much as SDL, anyway.
 
2:54 AM
@Pawnguy7 You'll learn that macros and variadics don't mix well... Problem I'm going through right now.
 
Variadic templats?
 
@Pawnguy7 Yeah. The perfect forwarding ones.
 
Ah. I can imagine them not mixing well, yes.
 
also
I finally figured out how I might make responsive Intellisense on large projects.
 
Do tell.
 
2:57 AM
well
the way I see it
you parse all files once.
then you build up a structure saying which files contain what stuff (like for example, overloads of foo() found in x.wide, y.wide, and z.wide).
then when the user interacts with the compiler in the future, instead of having to load every file, you only have to load the ones you know have interactions.
 
Seems reasonable.
 
and you can load the other files in the background.
 

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