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11:01 AM
@Ell You were working on a chat replacement?
 
@Jefery lol Going Down
 
@GregorMcGregor lol
 
@Jefery Maybe that's also part of the reason why we are going down?
 
10x worse of 0 bad is still 0
:P
 
You gotta look at it from the positive side, if the Lounge goes down, we all get more work done :)
 
11:05 AM
Well, that didn't take long. You can practically set your watch by the time it takes between the completion of a moderator election and the first complaints to show up on Meta. — Robert Harvey ♦ 9 hours ago
 
@TonyTheLion ._.
 
@GregorMcGregor I'm sorry <3
 
> Most women want at least something of a date before they fuck. The ones who don't, you (or certainly I, anyway) probably want to avoid.
Wait, this is what started it? Wow.
 
Oh, we're still in one piece <3
 
11:06 AM
careful there fred
 
@fredoverflow started.
 
> Frankly, if it were up to me, I'd freeze the whole room and be done with it. The C++ Lounge has been getting away with completely unacceptable and unprofessional behavior for years. I welcome the members of the Stack Overflow community to read the last few days of the transcript from the Lounge and to give us a reason why this chatroom should be allowed to continue.
3
 
@ElimGarak for now
 
I'm gonna miss you guys :(
 
Will miss you too
 
11:07 AM
I loved you fred
 
Ven
see you guys in hell :D
 
Lets all weep together one last time
 
Ell
We will have to meet in IRC, right?
 
Not if you complete your chat software
 
11:08 AM
@Ell Was it FreeNode or QuakeNet?
 
freenode #loungecpp
 
cakenet
freenoodz
 
Ell
What tony said
 
I don't get it.
What does freezing the Lounge accomplish?\
 
11:12 AM
I'm not going to IRC.
 
Why would they freeze the room
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Noise reduction.
 
banning cat jerry and cosh?
 
@MadaraUchiha Not true.
 
11:13 AM
They'll realize that this event is completely blown out of proportion and is a non-issue
 
@GregorMcGregor It was.
 
@GregorMcGregor You sure?
 
Well yes
 
It was blown out of proportion, that's for sure.
 
11:14 AM
But it's a two way street.
 
@MadaraUchiha You don't see a risk of contribution reduction on main?
 
@MadaraUchiha Here's the thing: am I persona non grata on SO? If so, I want to be told so so I can just leave. If not, I'll be here still, still chatting. The room doesn't affect that.
 
I mean in the heat of the moment everyone is angry but with cooler heads everyone with common sense in the mod team will realize this whole incident is completely ridiculous
There is no reason whatsoever to freeze this room for that
 
The reaction from the offending users and the room at large was less than constructive, so it escalated.
 
11:15 AM
It could have been over with a "sorry, we get it"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Robota non grata*
 
@MadaraUchiha Right.
From you
 
@JohanLarsson For freezing the room for two minutes?
 
let's not start again pls
 
I do hope the people here are more mature than that.
 
11:16 AM
@MadaraUchiha I have not followed closely but isn't the discussion about nuking the room?
 
@JohanLarsson I don't think the room should be nuked.
 
I have the mods on the phone there is no nuking the room
The PHP tag however...
 
ok, I never go to meta, thought there was a thread about it.
 
@MadaraUchiha So, IOW, if that's what people want, they should think of an action that actually accomplishes it.
 
There are problem users, and I think there are improvements to be made (on both the mods' sides in understanding the room, and in the room's users' perspective in understanding the mods)
But I don't think the room should be nuked.
 
11:16 AM
Never go to meta should be a Lounge rule /cc @Cat
 
Meta could be nuked perhaps.
 
@GregorMcGregor I told @Nooble not to post that meta question.
 
He's 14
Let's not blame him
 
Or at least a close reason.
 
11:17 AM
@Jefery Yes, and they're all pure!
 
@GregorMcGregor I'm just saying what I advised him and others
 
@TonyTheLion I think the meta post is justified, just not very well articulated.
 
nice
 
Trying to present only one side of any story on meta will not end well.
 
lol
 
11:18 AM
@MadaraUchiha I think it's terribly articulated. Not surprised at all by the downvotes.
 
I really prefer public discussion
 
There is too much bias on both sides for any constructive discussion to be had through text anyway
 
Xeo
@MadaraUchiha IMO, that would've been wrong, though. I can't see @Jerry's sentence being offensive or derogatory or whatever in any sense, quite the opposite.
A "sorry" would be acknowledging that something was wrong with the sentence.
Which I don't think there was.
 
genesis for mod
 
@GregorMcGregor so we should speak with our hips?
 
11:19 AM
Yeah
 
@JohanLarsson Voice
 
@Xeo Jerry's sentence?
 
Xeo
@MadaraUchiha Yes
 
Wasn't he banned by flags?
 
A sorry from the mod and all bans lifted would make me happy.
 
Xeo
11:19 AM
The one that started all this, as far as I could tell.
 
@MadaraUchiha "sentence" as in the grammatical construct, not the penalty.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah, lol.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Again, wasn't he banned by flags?
 
You're the mod here, you tell us
 
11:20 AM
I know I didn't ban Jerry
 
Xeo
@MadaraUchiha Yes, but that sentence brought the first mods here.
 
It was by flags because it was short.
 
@Xeo "Brought the mods here"
Why does that must always have a negative connotation?
 
Are we going to relive the whole event again
 
"The smurfs are a-coming"
I like chatting, I think it's fun.
 
11:21 AM
Good to see you too picked the smurf nickname
 
Sounds kinky
 
@MadaraUchiha It stems from a history of not so good relations with moderator and on meta
 
I don't like this whole "mods are evil" notion though
We want to work with you guys, not against you.
 
Well incidents like this tend to reinforce that notion
 
I don't like this "Lounge is evil" notion though
 
11:21 AM
not the first time
 
Xeo
@MadaraUchiha Yes, after telling the mods off for the (in his (and my) opinion) knee-jerk reaction with a pretty harsh response (which got flagged, and I think that's okay).
 
@Jefery Me neither.
 
@MadaraUchiha Nobody said that
 
@GregorMcGregor It was heavily implied yesterday.
 
@MadaraUchiha Yesterday it did seem like an "us vs them" situation
 
Xeo
11:22 AM
@MadaraUchiha "Smurf" has no negative connotation here, though!
 
Smurf is only because name is blue
 
Yes, I know
That's not what bothers me.
 
@TonyTheLion No it's because they're small and easy to step on
 
Xeo
@MadaraUchiha Because there were no mods in here before. Then some smurf came and told us Jerry's sentence was bad.
 
#constructivism
 
11:22 AM
@GregorMcGregor oh you
 
15 hours ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Hey mods, suspend this
....................../´¯/)
....................,/¯../
.................../..../
............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
.........\.................'...../
..........''...\.......... _.·´
............\..............(
..............\.............\...
Here's a prime example
 
that is bad
 
lol
 
This is totally us vs them
 
@MadaraUchiha You should have suspended him right away. Would be completely warranted.
 
11:23 AM
JESUS are we going to go through all the transcript again FFS
 
Cat....
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I did, eventually
Only for him to return with all the fire built up
 
I'm out
 
"eventually" does not type match with "right away"
 
@MadaraUchiha Yes because its exactly the response he wanted
 
11:24 AM
permanent ban?
 
@TonyTheLion No, because he was acting like an ass.
 
I mean, I have every tool in my pocket to rain fire on everyone on the room, I really hate doing that, despite what many people seem to think about me (and mods in general)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, because he wanted the ban.
 
Like I said, chatting is fun. Meta chatting, not so much. Handing out kicks and suspensions, I hate it.
 
It's not about you
 
11:25 AM
And to be perfectly fair, the room owners present at the time, didn't really help defusing the situation
 
Can't we simply make the Lounge private? Invited guests only or something?
 
@fredoverflow That's the Android room's approach
 
Xeo
@fredoverflow No.
 
@MadaraUchiha Android room must be full of swearing, I guess? :)
 
Seems to work relatively well for them, but that won't fix the fact that it were words said by the regulars that triggered the situation yesterday.
 
11:26 AM
@fredoverflow It has been tried, and was met with active resistance
 
@fredoverflow They mainly do it vs help vampires.
 
@MadaraUchiha I agree. I would have kicked Cat myself.
 
The tag was hit really hard in that regard.
 
@MadaraUchiha What was wrong with Jerry's words in the women vs sex sentence?
Are you really going to play the "it was off topic" card?
 
@Jefery Stop trying to reduce everything to that.
 
11:27 AM
Again today? I hate re-runs..
 
It was that that started everything
 
@MartinJames lounge #rehash
 
@Jefery Do you want us to get shut down today? :)
 
Would there have been a "Sorry, I misread Jerry's statement" nothing would have escalated.
Instead criticism of mod actions lead to more bans and more criticism.
That's like Moderation 101: don't escalate things.
 
@Jefery To be fair, I don't even care.
I didn't handle the initial situation
 
11:28 AM
@Jefery "criticism".
Don't downplay it.
 
I came here to try and explain what happened, because people were having questions
 
@MadaraUchiha I'm asking for your opinion because yesterday you defended the other moderators opinion on the matter.
 
It evolved into a full-fledged riot, and for no good reason.
 
I guess you don't act on thing you don't fully understand, do you?
NO GOOD REASON?
Are you for real now?
 
@Jefery No, no good reason.
 
11:29 AM
Never in the history of SO chat has so much effort been expended by so many over so little:(
 
I'm speechless.
 
One user being suspended, for whatever reason, is not enough of a reason to start name calling and trolling on that level.
 
What?
 
This whole thing could have been resolved much cleaner.
I've made mistakes
But I'm definitely not the only one.
 
So you get to do whatever you want, whether it's good or bad and we should always shut up?
 
11:30 AM
@Jefery I agree.
 
The reaction I've gotten... as if the world has turned upside down
 
@MadaraUchiha Yes, every problem has two sides.
 
@Jefery That's a false dichotomy.
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow The only new C# 6 feature that's actually worth anything is primary constructors. Oh wait, they cancelled that!
 
> You're not looking for a professional chat room, you're looking for an entirely casual unmoderated chat room.
What's a "professional chat room"?
 
Ell
11:31 AM
^?
 
One where you get paid.
 
Wait... there's places where you can get paid to chat?
 
@MadaraUchiha Yes, because you guys made a mistake and nobody apologized and instead gave away threats of bans and actually carried on those threats.
 
Why am I a programmer?
 
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes And an unprofessional one is one where you get laid.
 
11:32 AM
The only power we have is speech.
 
@Elyse Why? :(
 
Ell
This can't be a professional chat room, I'm not being paid :P
 
@TonyTheLion I wonder what chat topics you could make money with...
 
@Ell Oh you are. You just don't appreciate the rewards
 
@Jefery The Lounge is literally the only room we get flags like these
 
11:33 AM
@fredoverflow hot singles in your area
 
@Jefery Not quite.
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow No idea. Too much Java-unlike, perhaps. Or too little boilerplate.
 
When you are crushed by moderator powers over and over for no reason whatsoever, people tend to kind of get pissed you know?
 
@MadaraUchiha That's at least bending the facts
 
Flags about people talking about women and what they like to do when they fuck. Flags about women liking rape. Flags with seriously derogatory things
 
11:33 AM
@TonyTheLion Hot Singletons in your area. Anything gotos!
 
@MadaraUchiha Flags like "Women usually want to have a relationship instead of just sex"?
 
@MadaraUchiha These kinds of statements create the kind of aggression you are running in to.
 
I still have to find someone explain to me why that message was removed?
Or someone apologizing for that.
@MadaraUchiha "When they like to do when they fuck"? Where does it say that?
 
@MadaraUchiha It's easy to read into it what you like. As many have pointed out it's very very easy to come up with equally/more egregious samples from near random rooms
 
@Jefery Dating before sex is unprofessional.
 
11:34 AM
I have personally actively tried to prevent flags in here for a while now, and actively tried to prevent people from antagonizing others, to avoid flagging.
 
Why am I getting involved again. I have kids and a kitchen to tend to
 
Look, the Be Nice rule is vague.
 
"Women liking rape" has nothing to do with the lounge. It was some random user with no previous messages in here.
 
Very vague.
 
and when I say "a while", since we had that discussion with @JonClements
 
11:35 AM
@Jefery Inside job?
 
sbi
@MadaraUchiha FWIW, I flagged that as offensive.
 
Look peeps, I'm not wavering from principles. That flag got invalidated.
 
Work calls, brb
 
@sbi It's been drawn out long enough, methinks, if you include meta
 
Of course
 
11:36 AM
@sbi hi btw. Good to see you
 
sbi
@sehe I'm not acting on a wim. I have taken the time to read through this whole mess of a one-sided meta discussion.
 
And again this rape thing is brought up
 
@sbi Ok. That's good to hear (I almost didn't expect otherwise)
 
Jesus Christ, how many times are we going to explain that the rape message has nothing to do with the loungers.
 
@Jefery I'm still gonna write about it. It's gonna have to be night work though. Don't know when I'll manage
 
11:37 AM
So, I hear there's a fight here...
 
But I guess when you only have two weapons "Jerry posted something off topic" and "Someone posted something about rape in the lounge" it gets easy to reiterate over things over and over.
 
@JacquesMarais Please do not contribute to it, or engage or antagonize anyone. Thanks for your cooperation
 
@Jefery I understand that
 
Still you keep bringing it up
 
Both these occasions were such non-events. I'm going to make sure everyone understands I understand it looks bad. And I learned a thing or two from /that/ in isolation. But the things as such were really not eventful.
 
11:38 AM
I know how chat works, I've been very active in chat for the past 4 years.
 
Why?
 
@TonyTheLion Ok..
 
@Jefery Because of how it looks to the outside.
When flags rise, and yet again they're from the lounge
 
We are just being asked to keep the language clean enough so that no "easy targets" like this arise in transcript
 
I know it's not the room's fault
 
sbi
11:38 AM
@MadaraUchiha Actually, the message for which you banned what is likely the most level-headed and unheated user here was not about how women want to fuck even though you seem to keep sticking to this narrative. It's about what else women want, and that you want that, too – so it's about the exact opposite of what you make it. You keeping to fail to admit this makes you look very bad in my book.
3
 
@MadaraUchiha ^ that
 
sbi
@MadaraUchiha Yet you keep bringing it up as a means to defend you locking the room.
 
@sbi This
 
@sbi The problem seems to be with language, per se. The words "women" and "fuck" should not appear combined, because it could be taken the wrong way be felt to be non-inclusive/hostile
 
sbi
@sehe Yeah. I bet he's a Merkin. They have a thing going there.
 
11:40 AM
I sort of "get" this kind of policy. I don't agree, but I don't completely not-understand
 
Xeo
@sbi Jerry wasn't banned for that.
 
@Xeo He knows, read closely
 
Jerry got banned because he replied to that action in a heated way.
 
Xeo
@sehe I read closely. Still seems to say Jerry was banned because of the sex message.
 
Both, as I remember. Also, everyone was heated. Talk about professional
@Xeo Oh. Darn. I'm still tired I'll be off for the afternoon then.
 
11:41 AM
> Sadly, we're closing down soon
o.O
 
Yes, except that we bark and can't do anything, mods barked and actually got people suspended.
 
Xeo
@sehe heh, see ya
 
Self preservation
 
@fredoverflow Dude
 
sbi
@Jefery If that is true (I didn't take this from the meta discussion, but I take your word for it), then this is the first time in more than a decade (yes, we go back to Usenet), that I have seen Jerry arguing heated. That does say something about what had been done.
 
11:42 AM
1 message moved to bin
 
The freezing of the room was not a result of any one message.
 
sbi
@MadaraUchiha Yes. One of the most active room has lots of flags. Whodda thought.
 
We get it
People got heated and things went out of hand
 
Not really appropriate considering the circumstances
 
From after the message was deleted up until now, both parties made mistakes.
 
11:42 AM
@Jefery No arguments there.
 
sbi
@MadaraUchiha Yes. I got this. It was the result of many messages which were caused by you stepping in here "moderating".
 
What I'm trying to understand is why the mods originally deleted that message which started this whole thing and never apologized for it.
Never was that action questioned.
Which is what got a lot of people pissed.
 
@Jefery The entire discussion was in bad taste, let's be fair here.
 
sbi
@MadaraUchiha One party, however, is a Moderator – tasked to "moderate" discussions. You know, if the plebs are unreasonable, they are just plebs. But if the police is, they are bad.
 
You're on a Stack Overflow chat room for crying out loud.
 
11:44 AM
@MadaraUchiha How so?
 
Who uses ranger here? Have you ever looked at the source? How hard would it be to replace the image previewer with something else? (I presume all C++ers would know better than other peeps).
 
Xeo
@sbi Well, he basically told the mods to go die, in a more... flowery way.
 
This room has tendencies to get very cynical very quickly
 
Oh we are back into the "it's off topic" play, again.
 
sbi
@MadaraUchiha So are you.
 
11:44 AM
I should craft a "your 'it's off topic' spells don't work this turn" card.
Maybe it would save time.
 
@Jefery There's a difference between off-topic and in bad taste.
 
What was bad taste about it?
 
Off-topic is discussing how's work, how's the weather, how kids are doing, politics, religious views.
 
@MadaraUchiha let's try not to cry out loud, for a change
 
Those are acceptable on the Stack Overflow level, they're up to you how you want to treat them.
 
sbi
11:45 AM
@Xeo As I said, I have known Jerry for at least a decade. maybe two, even. He's always been one to stay out of heated discussions etc. Getting him to post a single heated message, not even LRiO blowing up here in the room again and again got more than a few sarcastic statements from him.
 
They're "off-topic" for the room as a C++ room, but if you find it acceptable, so be it.
 
So what's wrong about the message?
Can I have a direct reply as opposed to listing what is good?
 
@Jefery No, you may not. Because anything I say will be subjective, and you'd just say "it's wrong, I don't find that offensive at all"
 
Erm. You can't make it stick. Is my translation
 
So you won't say that because you are afraid of criticism?
 
11:47 AM
@Jefery I'm afraid of criticism? (Or "you" being "the mods" here?)
 
sbi
@MadaraUchiha This is about the thousandth time I say this, but here, especially for you, we go again: This is not a C++ support room. This is a lounge where C++ folks likes to hang out.
 
@sbi You don't have to tell me this, I know.
 
I like how your brain preemptively shuts down that because deep down you know it's wrong.
 
@sbi Let's just rename it to Lounge<NSFW> and be done with it?
 
11:48 AM
But Stack Overflow has rules regarding what content may or may not be posted. Even if they are vague.
 
sbi
@MadaraUchiha Then I can only conclude that you accusing us of being off-topic is a deliberate and derailing discussion tactics.
 
Off topic arguments never work, FYI
 
Even if no one will be able to tell you "here's the red line, don't cross it or be banned"
 
You know @JonClements did a good job moderating here, and so did @BoltClock.
 
Mostly because every room is off topic some of the times.
 
11:49 AM
@sbi I've never accused the lounge of being off-topic.
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion And @Shog, FTM. Mostly, anyway. :)
 
@MadaraUchiha Yes you just did.
 
Xeo
@TonyTheLion 'cept that, IIRC, Jon was the one that got involved with Jerry's message and kicked off the snowball, so to speak.
 
sbi
@MadaraUchiha What are you? Certainly you are not arguing logically, I can tell you that.
 
1 min ago, by Madara Uchiha
But Stack Overflow has rules regarding what content may or may not be posted. Even if they are vague.
This is what this post conveys^
 
11:50 AM
@Jefery No, I was referring to "explicit discussions" more so than to "off-topic" discussions.
 
There was nothing explicit about that
 
Like I said, you want to talk about politics and religion here? I don't think anyone would mind.
@Jefery ...
Now you're not being serious here.
 
@MadaraUchiha I'm sure he is.
 
What? "Fuck" in the context of "Having sex" is being explicit? That is what should warrant deletion?
2
 
what is it? a mod's week?
 
sbi
11:52 AM
@MadaraUchiha But "they're "off-topic" for the room as a C++ room" is certainly a very indicative statement that you accused us of being off-topic.
 
Wanna go remove all messages with "fuck" in this room?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You're going to tell me, with a straight face, that "Women like to date something before they fuck it" is an absolute 100% OK message?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes +1
 
@MadaraUchiha I don't know why I have to tell you anything. I'm just trying to help you guys actually have a conversation without misunderstandings.
 
@sbi I should clarify, I put "off-topic" under quotes for a reason
 
sbi
11:53 AM
@MadaraUchiha Why the hell is it not??
 
What one may consider "off-topic" by SO's standards, is fine for chat, and I won't criticise you for it.
 
"Fuck" is widely accepted on the chat network, despite the vague rules.
 
Just so you know.
 
@MadaraUchiha what is exactly wrong with it?
 
11:54 AM
@MadaraUchiha That said, that is not the message that was posted, and I wonder why you paraphrased it that way. It is highly misrepresentative.
 
sbi
@MadaraUchiha Yes, you (plural, as in "moderators", and singular, as in "Madara") do.
 
You should actually know this, given that you apparently have 4 years of chat experience.
 
If you really and truly can't see in any way how that may be at the very least controversial, I don't think this discussion can't progress any further.
 
Why don't you put it down in words?
 
sbi
11:55 AM
@MadaraUchiha I see a way it could: If you could explain what's wrong with talking about women having sex. Because so far you have utterly failed to tell us.
 
@Jefery that
 
"If you can't see it then that's the problem" arguments are old as fuck
I've even called them out in the Meta post
 
@MadaraUchiha I mean, some of those words were in it, but they have completely different functions in the sentence.
 
Xeo
you a word
 
@sbi Talking about women having sex in a Stack Overflow chat room is... pretty controversial. You'll find a lot of people that wouldn't like it on the outside.
 
11:56 AM
I ask that you reevaluate your assessments.
 
Oh my god! Women having sex? Are you for real?
 
Adding the profanity and the general attitude as though women are fuckbags (because that is totally what was implied from the outside, even if it wasn't intended), really didn't help.
 
Wait, women have sex?
 
JS room: 'pkill -9 lounge' :(
 
Oh that might explain why the human race is still going.
 
11:57 AM
@MadaraUchiha Women having sex is a normal thing, you know, because it happens. I don't know why you are making that controversial.
 
@TonyTheLion Because this is Stack Overflow chat, and not IRC.
 
@MadaraUchiha Do you imply that talking about men having sex fine, while women is not?
 
Xeo
@TonyTheLion 'murica or something, I guess.
 
@Abyx No, I do not.
 
@MadaraUchiha That was certainly not the attitude carried by the words as they were put together.
 
11:57 AM
@Xeo I suppose
 
@MadaraUchiha why do you stress "women" then?
 
sbi
@MadaraUchiha Oh, I freely give you "controversial" – there's just too many bigots on SO. But what is wrong with being controversial?
 
Hello Everyone,
Is there anyway to get the output of std::log() with more precision?
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes That was cosh's snarky response
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's what you say from your perspective.
 
11:57 AM
EVERYBODY SHUT UP AND ANSWER HOSSEIN'S QUESTION
 
Things looks very very different from the outside, without knowing about the lounge's culture.
 
@Hossein precision depends on your data type, e.g. float vs double
 
@BoltClock lol
 
Xeo
Which, without context, might sound weird. Was oozing with sarcasm for me, though.
 
@BoltClock done, now please turn the caps off
 
11:58 AM
@Abyx thx
 
@Hossein printf("%.42f\n", std::log(x));
 
(BTW, I'm happy to see that we can indeed have a constructive argument about this, minus the noise and trolling)
 
sbi
@MadaraUchiha "The general attitude that women are fuckbags" – now you're describing your attitude. Because this is the opposite of what was said here. And you already told us you know that, so please stop bringing up this straw man.
 
@sbi I did say I wasn't the person who handled the flag
 
@MadaraUchiha I'm saying that from reading the actual words that were in it, in the way they were in it. You seem to be saying it from some misrepresentative paraphrasing of it you came up with.
 
sbi
11:59 AM
@MadaraUchiha "You" as in "the whole room".
 
@sbi No, you as in @R.MartinhoFernandes.
 
@BoltClock hi :)
 
@MadaraUchiha Are you saying that you think that the mod that handled the flag was wrong?
 

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