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11:00 AM
Also, apparently cppquiz has gotten new questions. Dammit. I'm not doing them again
A bit less frequent, and slightly more useful.
Yep. The standard correlation holds!
 
@KonradRudolph Thanks for that retweet. I don't know why I haven't followed Dawkins before
 
user784668
Atheism needs a church.
2
 
... WHAT
 
@ScottW just like conversion from C to C++ shouldn't need one?
 
A  = {
    -\ value
    +/ mul = (x, y) -> { ret x * y }
    -/ __construct = (val) -> { this.value = val }
    -/ show = () -> { print this.value }
  }
WHAT IS THIS
WHO THOUGHT THAT THIS MONSTEROUS THING WAS A GOOD IDEA?!
 
11:08 AM
looks like lambdas
 
@ScottW it's not a religion
 
user784668
@ThePhD still better than PHP
 
and I don't know why you'd think it is
I am not treating it as one
 
How so?
 
@ScottW care to elaborate?
 
11:09 AM
He's been pretty vocal in the past about it not being a church or a religion.
 
I don't actually know what atheism is supposed to really be.
 
and he's right
 
@Fanael Erm, no. It's PHP semantics in Perl syntax.
 
so what?
 
Is it just anti-religion? Or is it more abstinence from all things potentially relating to religion?
 
11:11 AM
@ScottW ....
 
he's destroying the myth of god.
 
So... atheism is an assertion that there is no God(s).
 
maybe that feels harsh considering last 2000 years.
 
@ScottW So because you chose to use the word "preach" about his anti-religion speeches, he now treats atheism as a church
Please, I still have a few brain cells left, have mercy on them
 
user784668
@jalf no
 
11:12 AM
Oh. I don't see why that can't be a religion in and of itself. o.0
 
But let's play along. Why do you feel that his statements qualify as "preaching" in the religious sense?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Trying to.
 
Hm. Let's look up religion..
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes with rather nice effects.
 
@ScottW But you did say that he treated atheism as a religion
 
11:13 AM
Religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to the supernatural, and to spirituality. Many religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that are intended to create meaning to life or traditionally to explain the origin of life or the Universe. From their beliefs about the cosmos and human nature, they tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle. According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world. Many religions may have organized behaviors, clergy, a definition...
 
“Hm that's a good point, let me think for a bit
Oh wait, my mistake, it's absolute bullshit.
Science adjusts it's beliefs based on what's observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved.
 
@ScottW now we are asking you "why do you feel that he treats atheism as a religion".
 
^ Sounds like atheism could technically be a religion.
 
@ScottW You say that "it is because what he says constitutes preaching
@ScottW so we ask you "why does it constitute preaching"
@ScottW is he?
What makes you think that?
 
spend an hour and a half getting to the summer house, or stay in this boring flat? that's the question.
 
11:14 AM
@ScottW why is it "a belief system"?
@ScottW ...
 
not sure what I would do out there though, no internet connection.. should probably download some ebooks and read that shit, but still..
 
So what you're saying is "herp derp I don't actually know what atheism is"
 
@ScottW you don't understand what atheism is
 
alright, someone decide for me: pick a number between 1 and 10
just do it
help a brother out
 
You could have been clearer about that point and you'd have saved us all a lot of time
 
11:14 AM
@ScottW it doesn't work that way
 
@ScottW sure, or you can do what atheism does: stick to what you do know
 
I just quouted you some minchin
read again
2 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
“Hm that's a good point, let me think for a bit
Oh wait, my mistake, it's absolute bullshit.
Science adjusts it's beliefs based on what's observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved.
 
and stop talking about god, that's UB. where in the standard is there a reference to god? nowhere, ie. he's not real.
 
@refp 6
 
@ScottW no
 
user784668
11:15 AM
@refp 5
 
@FlorisVelleman even number, that's summerhouse shiznit
 
@refp No problem
 
... you can't pick two numbers, I'll let <random> decide
 
@ScottW agnosticism is a belief in indeterminate force
 
Atheism: "I am not aware of any reason to believe that God exists. Therefore I do not think that he exists". That has nothing to do with belief systems
 
11:16 AM
@jalf s/he/He/!
 
atheism is a denial of belief, more or less.
 
You blasphemous bastard!
 
user784668
@jalf s/God/any god/
 
indeed, there's a shitload of gods
 
Whole bucketloads.
Pantheons of them.
 
11:17 AM
@ScottW They are atheists. But they are not believers
 
:~% perl -e 'print "summerhouse shiznit? ", ["no","yes"]->[rand (1000) & 1]';
summerhouse shiznit? yes%
perl has spoken
 
and they are not part of any religion or church, and Dawkins has never claimed that they were
 
His tweets are boring though.
 
that one (about mother teresa) was good vOv
 
Let's follow your logic here: "I think it is stupid to think of atheism as a religion, but Dawkins does think it is one. I think that atheism forms a belief system, and that means that atheists are believers, and therefore atheism constitutes a religion"
Now, my question is this: what are you smoking?
 
11:19 AM
logic is hard.
 
I thought you said that atheism should not be considered a religion. And yet you are trying to convince us that it is one?
@ScottW What, in your mind, defines a belief system?
I believe that the sky is blue. Does that make it a belief system?
 
@ScottW is maths a belief system too?
 
(I should qualify that by saying that I believe the sky here and now is blue)
 
like, I believe 2+2 == 4 :). Insert "I'm a believer"
 
@BartekBanachewicz It is!
 
11:21 AM
We've played Believer on stage twice or trice
best song ever.
 
@ScottW And where do you get the non-obvious part from in the case of atheism?
 
user784668
@ScottW it's not provable, therefore it's woo and not even worth consideration
 
@ScottW I asked about obvious, not provable
 
user784668
@ScottW it is, it's called "observation".
 
(hint: we haven't proved gravity either. I don't think the "provable" clause really matters much)
@ScottW The fact that I can look under my bed and see precisely zero trolls means that the absence of trolls, while maybe not provable, is certainly obvious
 
11:24 AM
What about invisible trolls?
 
@jalf not in a philosophical sense, but there are laws saying that gravity is what it is
 
@refp ... no
 
@refp nope
 
user784668
@jalf you can look under your bed and see precisely zero protons, does that mean the absence of protons?
 
there are laws describing how we've observed gravity to behave
 
11:24 AM
it sure is
 
there are approximations of gravity
 
They don't explain what it is, or why it is
 
there are laws saying that a force of one object will affect other objects, and that's gravity
 
@refp There are also laws saying combustion is due to phlogistons. So what?
 
11:25 AM
@Fanael If I used instruments intended to, and known to be able to, detect protons, and I still saw no protons, then I would have a fairly good case, yes
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes highly irrelevant
 
@refp Please look up the word "law" in a scientific context
 
@BartekBanachewicz yes.
 
@refp there's no formal proof between gravitational mass and inertia mass
 
@refp Because?
 
11:25 AM
if you have one, go get your Nobel prize
 
Xeo
Meh, cppquiz.org is too easy :/
 
@ScottW maybe they did.But if I can repeatedly look, and see no trolls, if I can sleep on the bed for years and never hear trolls, and repeatedly fail to be eaten by trolls, then I have still proven nothing, but it is both rational and obvious to assume that there are no trolls
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes because I don't see the relevance, comparing apples and pears
 
user784668
@Xeo ya, make your own
 
Xeo
Too lazy
 
11:27 AM
@refp The point is that there existing a law in physics that says something is not proof.
 
@jalf For sufficiently large values of rational and obvious. :D
 
Likewise with atheism. I can't prove the absence of god, no, but I can go with the obvious: we've tried fairly hard to observe God, and we haven't managed to do so. We've found no trace of the many incredible feats attributed to him, and much of what we have observed flatly contradict the supposed knowledge about this god. Therefore, not believing in the existence of this god is obvious, and by your definition, that means it is not a "belief system"
 
I'm still trying to get my head round 'there are no trolls', posted in here.
 
@ScottW the only thing atheists "believe" is ockham's razor
 
@jalf What about the God particle!
 
user784668
11:28 AM
@MartinJames There are trolls in Skyrim, therefore trolls exist.
 
@ScottW but the Bible is full of "evidence" of this mythical creature's effect on our observable reality. And we can observe, in our observable reality, that these effects are not present
 
Xeo
Oh gawd, is there a religion discussion in progress here?
 
@Xeo Sort of...
 
Xeo
@MartinJames Okay, see you guys later!
 
@Xeo Noooo Xeo-chan don't leave me. ;~;
 
11:30 AM
I, as an atheist, have no problem saying that "something that we would consider supernatural, something that exists completely outside of our reality, might well exist outside our reality". But I am pretty damn sure that it doesn't exist, or exhibit any form of presence in our reality. It has not caused worldwide floods or virgin births, it does not throw lightning bolts at people, it does not require prayer and it does not cure diseases
 
...and there are a lot of trolls stating that trolls do not exist, stuff like that.
 
@ScottW No. That is not "all you are saying"
 
@ScottW you said it's a religion
 
What you are saying is a jumbled mix of misunderstandings, ignorance and contradictory claims
2
 
Watching @jalf arguing is a pure pleasure <3
 
11:31 AM
lol
 
user784668
@MartinJames they're trolls, trying to disprove their own existence
 
First you said Dawkins was wrong to consider atheism a religion. Then you spent 20 minutes trying to prove that it is a religion. And finally you say that no one should give a shit about Dawkins
To which I ask how are those things connected?
 
With full stops.
 
STOP.
 
Hello there. How can I display ~60 lines of C++ code in a SO question ? The code tags doesn't highlight it completely. Thanks
 
11:32 AM
LOL.
 
Xeo
...
 
Erm, that was never a problem.
 
Full-stop started a help-vampire.
 
I've seen people posting thousands of lines.
 
Well, 'God invented gravity, electromagnetism and the strong/weak nuclear forces' does not go down well in religious texts, especially if written thousands of years ago.
 
11:32 AM
I should be more careful with those. :3c
 
@ThePhD 60 lines might be reasonable for a full test case.
 
Xeo
@Albertus Don't use the <code> tag
highlight everything and hit ctrl-K or the {} button
 
@ScottW let me pick one of your assorted arguments though, and respond to it: no, atheism is not a belief in the religious sense, because those define an a priori assumption. Atheists do not start out with the assumption that "I don't think God exists". They start out observing the world, and drawing conclusions from that. That is what science does, and it is what beliefs do not do
 
Xei oh thanks..I did id in the reverse order ;)
 
11:35 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Because he becomes annoying as fuck after a while, that’s why. I don’t follow him (any more), I got it as a retweet on my timeline as well.
 
@jalf so pretty much what I've said 20 minutes earlier
 
yup
I can't prove the absence of Unicorns, and I can't prove that the Earth is round. I can't prove the existence of gravity either. But none of those make me a "believer". I do not "believe" in "non-unicornism", nor am I believer in "gravitism"
@ScottW Have you heard of science?
like, ever?
Also, have you ever read any of his books?
 
You can't prove the existence of gravity?
 
Have you ever been to a library?
People write non-fiction books about all sorts of stuff to share opinions and knowledge
 
@ScottW Jalf says you're stupid yo.
 
11:38 AM
@KonradRudolph hahahaha
 
Do you have any idea how many books are written about economics?
 
user784668
@jalf and exactly how is that relevant?
 
Why should people not write books about "what we've learned that indicates the non-existence of God"
@Fanael They have a shitload of books
 
@StackedCrooked You can explain phenomena in terms of it.
 
@ScottW Watch his TED talk on the subject, he explains it quite succinctly there
 
11:39 AM
Which implies that clearly, Dawkins isn't some weird freak of nature in his desire to write books
 
(In a nutshell: religion is a bad influence on society, opposing that is a moral imperative)
 
@ScottW All (good) scientists do what you would call "preaching their beliefs"
 
@KonradRudolph I once saw a christian video that showed how the life circumstances in remote villages improved once christianity was introduced. That was probably biased :)
 
@StackedCrooked It was probably outright false, cherry-picking evidence or positing correlation as causation
 
@ScottW Why do you equate the act of sharing information and opinions with people with "religion"? Does it "feel" like religion when someone posts a recipe for chocolate cake on the internet? When students buy a textbook about quantum physics? When children are taught the alphabet?
Why do those weirdos have this sick desire to preach their beliefs in those things?
 
user784668
11:43 AM
@jalf you share information now, do you know that? Therefore, you're preaching your beliefs!
 
user784668
This makes you biased.
 
He is clearly very opinionated, and he certainly has an agenda. And the same is true for many religious people. But if that's all you have to go on, and that makes you lump them both into the same "religious preacher" bucket, then...
 
Non-belief does not need a movement. Non-belief doesn't care. But those who see the harm done by religion, and who feel that we would be better off without it are obviously going to try to share their point of view. Why woudln't they?
 
@KonradRudolph have you solved the problem with the nested typedef?
 
11:47 AM
@jrok Yes :) It was easy
template <typename C>
struct has_size {
    template <typename T>
    static constexpr auto check(T*) ->
        typename std::is_same<
            decltype(std::declval<T const>().size()),
            typename T::size_type>::type;

    template <typename>
    static constexpr auto check(...) -> std::false_type;

    using type = decltype(check<C>(0));
    static constexpr bool value = type::value;
};
@jrok ^
 
Aye
 
the key difference though, is that they do not ask you to take a leap of faith. They are not saying "come join us, we offer a wonderful afterlife with 72 virgins and all the cookies you can eat". They merely say "you know that story in the bible? Yeah, if it were true, then we would be able to observe <X> in nature. We can't. And do you know about tragic event ? <Y>` in history? It was committed by religious people in the name of their god, as evidenced here
 
@jalf s/of his//
 
@ScottW ...because I had no idea where you got the "belief system" thing from, what you knew, what you didn't know, or what you were trying to say
 
I'll just leave that here :v (not related)
@ScottW and then it went downhill
 
Xeo
11:49 AM
@KonradRudolph uhwhut
Why the is_same check?
 
@ScottW also, I don't know if that's his main motive. It's certainly one of them. But the other one is simply pointing out that "we actually have quite a lot of data indicating that God does not exist"
 
@BartekBanachewicz I cannot decide whether this is just cringeworthy or whether I kinda like the tune
 
@ScottW No, it was "Dawkins thinks atheism is religion and it shouldn't be seen as one"
 
@Xeo Because I need it to see whether the return type is correct?
 
Xeo
hm
 
11:51 AM
(Also, for the record, I really liked Dawkins' older books where he focused on the latter point, the science which just so happens to make it unlikely that God exists. The newer ones sem to focus more on the "religion is harmful" angle, and kind of misses the mark for me)
 
@KonradRudolph memes memes memes memes
 
is this yet another agnosticism vs. atheism debate or what?
 
user784668
@ArneMertz atheism vs atheism
 
Xeo
@Fanael Reminds me of that South Park episode
 
@Fanael ah k. where's my popcorn?
 
Xeo
11:53 AM
Get it yourself
 
meh.
@Xeo sudo get me some popcorn
 
Xeo
Not on sudoers list.
 
@jalf Who wants 72 virgins anyway?
 
@jalf they are more (or at least try to be) more sociological, and while Dawkins is a great biologist, he's kinda bad at those human stuffs
 
user784668
@ArneMertz zsh: command not found: get
 
11:54 AM
@KonradRudolph But why not is_convertible?
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, pretty much that
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, if T has a size_type...
Still probably a better idea.
 
@ScottW A lot of religious people throughout history have cared
where do you think atheists have come from?
 
@KonradRudolph False dichotomy!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well I want to check for the function signature C::size_type C::size() const. What would I gain by using is_convertible?
 
11:55 AM
Why must it be that signature?
 
user784668
@KonradRudolph XY problem
 
@ScottW cue C -> C++ I said 30 minutes ago or more
facts.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why would it be any other? I actually don’t care terribly about the return type – I kind of use this in lieu of a trait is_container_which_has_size_function
 
inb4 some C freak coming in and denying my claims about C.
 
Well, if say, you are going to use this in expressions like C::size_type s = c.size(), this only requires convertibility.
 
JBL
11:57 AM
@ScottW Are you a complete believer now ?
Good.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmm. Well okay. I’m still not convinced why it would ever have another signature, but on the other hand I can of course always be lenient
 
Xeo
auto s = c.size();~
 

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