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Xeo
5:00 PM
@BartekBanachewicz You're making a presentation on Monads?
Why do I have the feeling that can only go one way - wrong?
 
lol
My talk is in two hours.
3
I'm starting to feel like a puppeteer, building up mania to avoid catatonia.
 
you'll be fine.
 
17 mins ago, by Etienne de Martel
Close your eyes, take a deep breath, and think about your Happy Place.
 
they'll be too distracted by how ugly you are to notice the technical holes in your talk
:P
 
Xeo
@DeadMG According to the slides, there isn't much technical in his talk at all
 
5:05 PM
I haven't seen the slides.
is it -lpthreads to link to pthreads?
 
Xeo
should be
 
awesome.
 
> saved from not being saved from horrible bug by override by remembering to use override
there, FTFY
 
I use -pthread. not sure if different but since memory models and shit.
 
Is someone recording your talk?
 
zch
5:07 PM
What's it about?
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yeaaaah.... how else would you propose override works?
 
user1804599
It should be mandatory so you get used to it.
 
Xeo
@rightfold good luck making it mandatory
think about it
 
hmmm.
is there any way I can expand the size of how far back the terminal goes? there are so many linker errors...
 
user1804599
Yes, it would break existing code. vOv
 
Xeo
5:09 PM
@rightfold not even that
how would you make it "mandatory"?
 
user1804599
Well.
 
user1804599
struct A { virtual f(); }
struct B : A { virtual f(); } // illegal
 
Xeo
brittle base n shit
 
@Ell: Alright, I hit the wall of linker errors.
 
Think this would be fun to play on?
 
Xeo
5:10 PM
@rightfold Also, you don't need override for that to work. More interesting: struct B : A { virtual f(int); };
 
posted on November 19, 2013 by Eric Battalio

The C++ language is large and complex with context-sensitive syntax subtleties that make it difficult to create a reliable and fast rename refactoring tool. For years we wanted to include rename refactoring in Visual C++ but it never quite made it. We were concerned about scalability, performance and accuracy for different user scenarios. Rename refactoring might take longer on more complex or

 
Time for some schnitzel first.
 
Xeo
nom
 
@Tony I mentioned that to the folks organising but they didn't say anything about it.
 
user1804599
> used to it
 
Xeo
5:14 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Worst case, ask somebody in the audience to record with their mobile phone :P
 
user1804599
You can’t prevent everything.
 
@DeadMG shouls be somewhere in the preferences.
 
Xeo
@rightfold AJGHAIGH'POAGEU, where's your "mandatory" now?
 
user1804599
That’s not overriding.
 
user1804599
You’re defining a new function.
 
Xeo
5:14 PM
yeeeeees
 
user1804599
If you meant to override, you’d have written override.
 
Xeo
and that's what override is there for to prevent
JGAD IPOJGAHP*IUHHIPA*
argh
 
user1804599
But you didn’t, because C++ never had that before.
 
@zch rule of zero.
 
zch
Nothing new?
 
5:17 PM
No.
 
hmm
 
Ell
@DeadMG :/ are you using the default generated makefile from premake?
 
yeah.
 
Ell
or have you changed it to use llvm-config? And you built llvm from source, right?
 
yeah
the intention is to fix it so that the default makefile works.
whoever invented order-dependent linking should be shot.
 
Ell
5:22 PM
I think llvm-config --libs all should give them in the correct order
 
user1804599
Ugh.
 
user1804599
C# spec y u no PDF.
 
zch
.docx, lol
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
 
5:26 PM
So I have managed to get this Java/Spring thing going.
Or maybe I should say limping because it takes over 20 minutes for it to start up.
 
@wilx I hope you're exaggerating...
 
@MartinJames Absolutely not. I am literally sitting here waiting for it to start up, watching logging console to scroll by each an every time I start it up for 20+ minutes.
And most of the time the javaw.exe process is running with 70% CPU utilization.
 
@wilx Lemme guess - Oracle connectivity?
 
Well, I am connecting against a remote MSSQL.
 
wtf is it doing for 20 minutes?
 
5:30 PM
I have no idea.
 
@wilx OK, that'll do it:)
 
@Ell Big improvement, but more to go.
 
aright, how do you set an environment variable in Bash?
 
@DeadMG MYVAR=x
No spaces.
 
5:33 PM
export MYVAR=x
 
Ell
export MYVAR=x
 
@Xeo I have no suggestion. It just annoys me when people (and I'm not suggesting that @DeadMG is one of them) claim override solves the whole problem in one go, when you have to remember to use it in the first place.
 
@Pawnguy7 I haven't got round to stroking my snake much today. When last seen, the snake was continually reporting a collision with itself.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes How is Cannonical openly evil now?
 
zch
@wilx, Amazon
 
5:35 PM
@wilx You could read three lines down
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that is my problem entirely
@MartinJames I am working on several different level types for multiplayer. Have a suggestion?
 
C++ has override now? IIRC, it just happened with virtual members before?
 
@MartinJames Yeah, see, this is C++11, so the keyword override doesn't cause any overriding. It means "I intend to override". So if you have it, and you are not actually overriding, you get an error.
Much like std::move, which does not move, and std::forward, which does not forward...
Pile of nonsense
To be fair, inline set this precedent a while ago.
 
Ell
It's not really nonsense
 
It really is
 
5:39 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Ah! That would actually saved me some bugs, had it been around earlier.
 
@MartinJames Okay, if you remembered to use it.
 
Ell
why would you write override if you weren't going to override? o.O
 
@Ell I reckon if you know enough to write override, you know already that it's a valid override. Yes, it will catch some typo bugs where you forgot a const or something. But, c'mon. Edge cases all.
(Those are the sole rationale)
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I do agree with the override thing, but I disagree with the std::move and std::forward
and inline
 
@Ell How so?
None of them do what they say they do.
 
Ell
5:41 PM
meh maybe you're right, I need to think for longer
I'm far too indecisive :P
 
Heh - when writing 'ordinary' C++, I frequently get comp. errors from typing 'override' on methods - it's required in Delphi if you want to override and not hide. I've just got out of that habit, which is now required in C++11 :((
 
@MartinJames Not required, but certainly idiomatic.
 
@DeadMG Yup, so it seems:)
 
for_each pre-exists C++11, right?
 
zch
predates, yes
 
5:44 PM
I get warnings in Delphi if I hide a method. Either 'override', or 'reintroduce' removes the warnings, (though obviously have different effects).
 
@rightfold I quite like that idea.
 
How would you make it mandatory?
 
@MartinJames That one almost as much.
 
@zch thanks
 
I broke Ubuntu.
 
5:47 PM
@DeadMG what did you do ?
 
How this time?
 
I used make -j to compile LLVM
of course if I'd just remembered to set that shitty global variable before configuring I wouldn't have to be recompiling it :(
 
Ell
@DeadMG what didn't you set?
 
that stupid RTTI thing
 
@DeadMG You running Ubuntu in a VM?
 
5:53 PM
no
 
Ell
@DeadMG ahh yeah I remember that
 
OK, I'm impressed with your system-killing skills:)
..or, more likely, the system-killing skills of make.
 
@MartinJames have you run it in a VM?
 
@Pawnguy7 Yes, VMware.
 
Is it rather slow?
 
5:56 PM
Has Robot done the RoZ talk yet?
 
@MohammadAliBaydoun if the starred message is correct, it is in an hour
 
@Pawnguy7 Not so as I noticed much, no.
 
Oh shit. I didn't even notice that :v
 
@MartinJames Oh. I had tried out VirtualBox. When running... nothing, it is just slow. Like, mouse lag, takes forever to open anything, etc.
@MohammadAliBaydoun starred messages?
 
Ell
@Pawnguy7 do you have hardware virtualization?
 
5:59 PM
so
what do you silly Linux types do to pass the time whilst your code is compiling if you don't have a pair of foam swords and another bored guy?
 
"Thank you, Mr. Martinho, for your interesting presentation. Now we'll take five minutes for questions and then break for drinks". "Err.. over there on the left..". "Why is your powerpoint slide font off by one pixel?"
9
 
@Ell If it has to be enabled manually, then I have not done that.
 
Ell
@DeadMG chat here :3
facebook, youtube, etc.
or games occasionally
 
I wonder how high I can set make -j before it kills my compute.r
 
Ell
idk what -j is
 
6:06 PM
parallelism
-j is arbitrary parallelism
I had make -j 3 before and now I'm trying make -j 4
 
user1804599
My god.
 
does UBuntu come with a resource monitor utility like task manager?
 
yes
 
user1804599
$ apt-get install htop
 
Ell
@DeadMG look for "system monitor"
(iirc)
 
6:09 PM
@rightfold There are problems with multiple access to the linker error log - if the threads try to post more than 1000 errors at the same time, it crashes.
 
user1804599
@MartinJames Ah, I see.
 
user1804599
(What the hell are you referring to?) :v
 
@rightfold Puppy's make -j
 
Xeo
@DeadMG sleep
 
@DeadMG -j alone just kills my system
 
6:13 PM
@Collin Which just happened to me.
not only did it kill the system, I had to reboot more than once to get back to desktop.
 
you'd think make would have some sensible limit there
 
still on the upside I could always just load back into Winders.
 
count_of_cores * 100 or something
 
count_of_cores * 5 would be much more sensible.
 
I wonder if some queue just overflows in the io scheduler
that would be interesting
 
Ell
6:15 PM
@DeadMG why don't you just leave it?
 
user1804599
@DeadMG when I finally get my powerful machine, probably playing Minecraft or developing software.
 
it wasn't just slow, it was dead.
 
Xeo
-j (#cores + 1) is what I did for llvm/clang
 
Ell
I mean, why don't you just not do -j?
 
user1804599
Speaking of spending money.
 
6:16 PM
because not doing -j means using only one core, which means waiting a fucking eternity for LLVM and Clang to compile.
 
user1804599
I think I’m getting myself some nice fireworks at the end of the year.
 
@Ell Life's too short:)
 
Ell
R.Martinhos talk is in one hour
 
@Ell Will it be streaming anywhere?
 
@Xeo that usually works well for me as well
 
6:17 PM
@rightfold I'm getting a rocket in the new year. I have to go see my main customer in Germany. It's not gonna be pleasant, neither the weather nor the meeting:(
 
user1804599
@MartinJames I’m getting a rocket and four large cakes.
 
fucking cake!
 
@Ell is there are a stream or something?
 
"Martin, your unicode shi.. enhancement is six months late!"
 
Is something like make -j 8 ideal on a 4-core processor with HT?
 
user1804599
6:19 PM
@DeadMG no, not the food.
 
@MohammadAliBaydoun I would have thought it was muchly I/O bound on all those little files?
 
@MartinJames I guess that's true~
 
user1804599
2kg of gunpowder. :3
 
..also, pup's SSD died and he's on a spinner:(
 
Ell
@bamboon I don't think so :/
 
6:23 PM
@MartinJames I'd put Windows on the SSD even if it were alive.
 
Oh fuck. Another scheduling problem. I want, (for some reason), to watch the England<>Germany match at 20:00. I need to walk the dog, get milk and retain access to my car, which is at the club. I guess I'll have to walk down with the dog, put the dog in the car, bring him home, pick up bag, go to Tesco, go home, dump the dog and shopping, drive down.. no walk to club again. Try and get lift back. Thre miles of walking:( Life is complex.
 
@MartinJames Are you England?
I mean pro
 
@bamboon No, just English, (I've seen England play recently, so as a soccer fan, I'll be rooting for the Germans:).
Anyway, I gotta go shower, else I'll use up all the time left planning on how to save time. BFN!
 
@MartinJames ah that's good ;). Though, I think that the other games will be of more interest today.
 
@MartinJames Can you send your dog to get the milk?
 
user1804599
6:35 PM
@sehe on a scale from no to yes, would it be difficult to deal with the >> problem (like in C++ and C#) in a Spirit lexer/parser?
 
Ell
what is the >> problem? o.O
 
@rightfold Is it actually a problem in C#? You can't have something like X<Y< 10>>1 >> in C#...
@Ell Does >> close two generics or shift right?
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow But you do have > and >> tokens.
 
You could probably use a parser rule that treats >> as > followed by > in a generic context.
Although I'm note sure that could be done in LR(1) or whatever it's called.
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow I have no idea what any of those things mean. :D
 
6:38 PM
Try to write a grammer that treats >> as > > and you'll see, trust me ;)
Of course there is a much better solution: use [] as generic symbols like Scala does. ]] is not a token. Problem solved.
 
user1804599
I think I’ll just lex it as a single token >>.
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow IMO [ and ] are ugly. :(
 
user1804599
Also, this will be nice: :D
 
Or just don't use >> for right shift. How often do you need that, anyway?
 
user1804599
extern x: dynamic;
extern y: dynamic;
x.foo<y>(42);
 
user1804599
6:40 PM
I think you’re right. I shouldn’t use <> (nor []).
 
@FredOverflow It's not strictly more complex than typename vs identifier, really.
 
user1804599
I could use D/Wide-like !().
 
user1804599
Or I need a context-sensitive grammar.
 
@rightfold Actually, it's a context-sensitive lexer.
well, also grammar, I guess.
 
user1804599
@DeadMG Not just that, also foo.bar<…>(…) problem.
 
6:42 PM
yeah.. just don't use <> for generics :P
 
user1804599
Jup. :P
 
but Wide doesn't typically need !().
 
user1804599
But if I use [] that still clashes with the [] operator.
 
most functions are fine with just ().
 
user1804599
!() would solve the problem as I don’t have a binary ! operator.
 
user1804599
6:43 PM
() won’t work; functions can return other functions.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Will the talk be recorded?
 
@rightfold Which is still not ambiguous, grammatically speaking.
 
user1804599
How is foo(T)(X) not ambiguous?
 
in Wide, std::vector is a function returning a type, which can be called.
 
user1804599
Oh, you do it that way.
 
6:44 PM
so basically, I don't need to give a shit about what's a type and what's not.
that solves the problem quite effectively in virtually all scenarios.
 
user1804599
I could use {}. :D
 
I plan to use {} for tuples.
 
user1804599
I use parentheses for that.
 
user1804599
There are no one-tuples.
 
@rightfold They're called "singletons".
I think.
Or maybe I'm thinking of something else.
 
user1804599
6:46 PM
Singletons are containers with only one element.
 
having no one-tuples sounds quite impractical and ungeneric.
 
user1804599
I have no variadic generics so I don’t really see the point in having one-tuples.
 
@rightfold 1-tuples are also called singletons.
 
anyway, that's a different matter.
 
user1804599
Tuples are containers. vOv
 
user1804599
Haskell calls [42] a singleton.
 
appeal to authority city going on here.
 
"Well, I'm too lazy to do it properly, so I'm going to half-ass it and then claim nobody needs it."
 
@rightfold Are tuples containers?
 
user1804599
Tuples are heterogenous containers with fixed sizes.
 
6:48 PM
2 mins ago, by rightfold
Tuples are containers. vOv
 
Can I sort a tuple?
 
sry I must clean this up.
 
@FredOverflow You can sort types, so I'd guess you can sort a tuple :D
 
@Griwes What do you mean by "sort types"?
 
@FredOverflow Well, for example sorting them by size.
 
6:51 PM
Aw.
I don't have HAL.
 
> And please, for the love of all that is nice and fluffy, don't act like we owe you something. You'll get flamed to death.
4
 
@rightfold I think it depends exclusively on the grammar. It isn't more or less difficult to deal with it in Spirit vs. hand-written. However, it might be easier in Spirit because Spirit allows you great freedom to "break abstractions" or pass information fromother abstraction levels.
 
Super cleanup.
 
Daww.
 
This - of course - is a double edged sword (I tend to stick to the simplest possible grammar and operate on the ASTs, but C++'s grammar would seem to require some "premature" semantic decisions) @rightfold
 
6:54 PM
@EwokNightmares, being mean is implicit on the internet.
 
user1804599
@sehe Well, I think all I need is context-sensitivity.
 
@Griwes then other things should be implicit too
 
user1804599
Which sucks because you can use stuff before it’s declared.
 
They sure are.
 
@Griwes yes you just got something implicit from me to you
 
6:55 PM
room topic changed to Lounge<BCPL>: You can ask C++ questions on stack overflow [no-gotchas] [no-questions] [no-tricks]
 
@EwokNightmares Which just proves everybody's opinion about you. vOv
 
user1804599
I can use \/ for generics. :D
 
@rightfold A grammar that requires context, plus a context-less semantics, that's not going to end well. You'd have to parse in more than one pass, or something similarly horrendously ugly.
 
@rightfold Are you insane?
 
@Griwes what?
 
user1804599
6:56 PM
Tuple\int, int, int/!
 
@rightfold Sorry, you are, shouldn't've asked.
 
@Griwes am what?
 
1 message moved from bin
@EtiennedeMartel That needed stars
@rightfold Yup. So the context would be what is "premature semantics" in my description
 
user1804599
Or Tuple⟨int, int, int⟩. :D
 
I'm glad that the mass plonk has been refound. Bb later
 
6:59 PM
@rightfold You are more insane than me. Whoa.
 
@DeadMG You once said something about having a State object passed around to almost every single function in your Wide project. My code is currently tending to the same thing. I was wondering: Do you regret this design decision? I can totally see the benefits in terms of maintainability, and I don't see any obvious flaws ;v
 
@MohammadAliBaydoun Monads
 

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