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7:00 AM
@MarkGarcia sure thing
> That journey claimed one more victim, though—and you won't believe which one
Is it the controller? Did I guess right?
 
Now that you mention it, I can't find it in the article.
Probably reading too fast.
 
user1646075
@Mysticial are they referring to the neutron?
 
no idea
 
I hope there's some tool or perhaps a record in the drive that measures how many bytes written/read.
 
@sehe It’s not enough to val non-lazy arguments. Consider bind(foo, arg1 + arg2)—it’s my understanding that both Proto and Phoenix default to holding references to the plus node.
 
user1646075
7:05 AM
@MarkGarcia the SMART utilities thingy
 
Because without it, it's harder to justify/take into account SSD endurance when buying.
@aclarke I don't know if SMART collects those infos. Lazy to search too.
 
Which is concerning for our arg1[_a] btw.
 
@LucDanton TBH I don't know what for. They are stateless things, right? AFAIR proto just has a problem with "outside" references, which none of the arg placeholder types or plus-expression nodes should have?
 
It's mostly about health.
 
user1646075
there's a utility in windoze, or the bios, or a simple download - can't remember where I looked that that stuff 'cos it was a few years ago.
 
user1646075
7:07 AM
SMART is about stats collecting in the disk
 
user1646075
i thought it covered all the crap they're looking at. they might have made progs to data mine it I guess
 
@Mysticial I think it's just so anti-climactic, maybe
 
@sehe I don’t think state or no state is relevant. I’m of the opinion that the Proto default is problematic in general, but that’s because there’s no better choice in C++03. However doing partial application with type-erasure runs right into those issues, just like C++11 auto.
 
Storage is a sad story. Hard drives are cranky. SSDs wear out.
 
user1646075
hmmm - maybe not
 
user1646075
7:10 AM
SMART, according to wiki, seems to store really dumb stats. A bit of a TL;DR
 
user1804599
Mood gorning.
 
@aclarke Dumb as it is, it helped me predict 3 out of 4 of my last HD failures.
 
user1804599
I think I need a unique foreign key.
 
@Mysticial I predict that all your hard drives have failed by 2025.
I'm SMART.
:P
 
That's a long time. :)
 
7:12 AM
There.
 
@LucDanton How often have you passed concepts around for tag dispatching?
 
@Rapptz Extremely rarely, I don’t have many hierarchies. The one notable example is ranges, and I don’t think I use it there.
 
Yeah me too.
I'm still unsure what to do with my concepts thing.
 
@LucDanton I guess, bind doesn't do type erasure? Hmmm. Perhaps you mean that Phoenix functors cannot be "stored" regardless of context? I'm trying to see this point-of-view, but I have yet to come up with the explanation why they are "ok" e.g. in semantic actions then. (Are the ETs somehow "reified" during compilation of a Spirit rule?)
 
@sehe We are, by assigning the result to a function<…>.
auto f = arg1 + 5; is broken (as per the documentation), ergo function<int(int)> f = arg1 + 5; is.
It’s a good point about Spirit. I am not familiar enough with it to answer, but it is indeed possible to accept a Phoenix lazy expr and ‘fix’ it after the fact. (That’s the whole Proto goodness.)
 
user1804599
7:18 AM
@sehe on a scale from yes to no, are you good with designing relational database schemas?
 
Yeah. I arrived at that point. But, in my experience this has been fine until outside (non-ET) references were involved. I always "rationalized" by saying that ETs have type information only (i.e. are completely static) - somehow implying that it doesn't matter whether the actual instances aren't around at the time of traversal.
Of course, technically invoking operator() is a non-static operation and technically still UB there, is that what you are trying to remind me of?
@rightfold Yes, and I hate it
 
user1804599
top kek
 
@sehe I doubt the Proto/Phoenix/Spirit folks are underhanded enough to do that kind of crap :/
 
@LucDanton Ah. You're faster than me.
@LucDanton I guess that makes me (subconsciously) underhanded sometimes.
 
user1804599
I have to store addresses that can either be a house addresses or a PO boxes. :[
 
7:21 AM
@rightfold Flags?
 
user1646075
@rightfold ewwwwwwww - nobody gets addresses right. all sorts of issues
 
@LucDanton Actually, that whole operator() is a non-static member conundrum could quite easily be sidestepped inside Proto, right? I mean, I get that Phoenix wants it's actors to be regular function objects, but that isn't required for Proto expressions, I suppose. I'm drowning already.
@rightfold variant<streetaddress, poboxaddress>, or stringly type it
 
user1804599
@MarkGarcia I thought of something like this: gist.github.com/rightfold/6b42a35ecd9228c2bb38
 
@sehe How else can you chain further () calls? :)
 
user1804599
@sehe PostgreSQL doesn't have variants AFAIK. It does have table inheritance but that is suck.
 
7:22 AM
@rightfold geographical applies lat/long to me. topographical sounds more applicable (or just, street address)?
 
Even if you manage to produce the Proto tree with dangling references, what do you do when you eval it though?
 
user1804599
@sehe Yeah probably. Will think about that.
 
Xeo
Welp, got some time off work
Time to read up on this shit...
 
user1804599
> A serious limitation of the inheritance feature is that indexes (including unique constraints) and foreign key constraints only apply to single tables, not to their inheritance children. This is true on both the referencing and referenced sides of a foreign key constraint.
 
user1804599
Bleh.
 
7:28 AM
@rightfold That looks okay for me. Joining is simple enough. Just a check for which of geo or po is null.
Or not null.
 
user1804599
Not sure whether I need addresses, actually.
 
user1804599
I could make two tables use the same sequence for generating IDs.
 
user1804599
Oh wait then I cannot make polymorphic foreign keys, nvm.
 
Yep. You need it. Else how do you reference an address from another table.
 
user1646075
@rightfold the vast bulk of commercial apps simply throw enough fields into a single table, then apply programmatic choice over what gets stored. Use constraints in the DB if you feel the urge to get the db to protect itself from programmer error.
 
user1804599
7:31 AM
What? I'm not a Ruby programmer.
 
user1646075
@rightfold I'm sure this glorious technique predates ruby by about 50 years
 
user1804599
DB admin is fucking annoying without proper constraints and references.
 
user1646075
@rightfold i'm a hard-core fan of db constraints to enforce protection. Also it becomes a succinct spec that programmers can refer to...
 
@rightfold I'm currently working on a single quite large feature. Sad thing I cannot keep up with my teammate cleaning up his job of not having proper constraints and references.
 
user1646075
things get worse when you have to deal with billing addresses, postal addresses, delivery addresses, blah blah blah all against the same individual/organisation
 
user1804599
7:35 AM
@MarkGarcia Educate him so you don't have to fix it.
 
user1646075
@rightfold or use Righteous Pimp Hand
 
user1804599
@aclarke I don't see how that would be a problem.
 
@rightfold Oh how I wish. I've learned the hard way not to do that in the middle of projects.
 
user1804599
You just create tables billing_addresses, postal_addresses and delivery_addresses that each contain a foreign key to organizations and a foreign key to addresses and make that combination unique.
 
user1646075
@rightfold it does, believe me. Edits that only correct spolling mistaiks vs changes of address. Different addresses for different deliveries, and historical data requiring they stay attached to the original address vs. their new address. All sorts of scenarios happen in commercial apps that boggle the mind in their tedium
 
user1804599
7:38 AM
If you lay the relationships carefully there should not be any problems.
 
user1804599
If you don't know what you're doing then there should obviously be many problems.
 
Life pro tip.
 
user1646075
@rightfold sure, that must be it.
 
user1804599
And as for spelling mistakes vs address changes you can handle that with a clear enough UI.
 
user1804599
You can prevent spelling mistakes in many cases by autocompleting addresses, and you can give a clear warning when the user changes an address.
 
user1646075
7:41 AM
@rightfold if your needs are simple, you'll do well. See also bi-temporal databases...
 
user1804599
If they ignore the warning and rape the system then that's their own problem.
 
user1646075
@rightfold that I won't disagree with.
 
user1646075
sadly, it's often important to protect users from themselves
 
@rightfold Just yesterday I discovered that MySQL resets its current auto increment value to max(auto_inc_col). Had to revise most of my code just to account for it. So yes, not knowing sure is a problem.
 
@aclarke I second this motion /cc @rightfold
 
user1646075
7:43 AM
@MarkGarcia huh? when does it do that?
 
@aclarke When the server starts.
 
user1804599
> Do you know that your latest time entry 'Relatieopslag' has been running for 8 hours by now, and is still going? Check it out in Toggl!
 
@rightfold you know that UI validation != database integrity constraints, right
 
user1804599
Yeah Toggl, maybe because I've been working on that for 8 hours straight. :v
 
Honestly though, I'm a little thankful for it 'cause I've found a more elegant way of implementing the feature.
 
user1804599
7:44 AM
@sehe yes but if I could do check (user is not an idiot) constraint then that would be even better than curing cancer and solving world hunger.
 
user1804599
@MarkGarcia lolmysql
 
@rightfold The point was that dealing with address changes (vs. edits) can become complex quickly. You'd be a fool to dismiss it with jokes
 
user1804599
@aclarke yup :[
 
user1646075
@MarkGarcia i laugh a little when people ask for the 'next auto' to be changed when rows are deleted.
 
user1804599
What was the joke?
 
7:46 AM
Reductio ad absurdum (Latin: "reduction to absurdity"; pl.: reductiones ad absurdum), also known as argumentum ad absurdum (Latin: argument to absurdity), is a common form of argument which seeks to demonstrate that a statement is true by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its denial, or in turn to demonstrate that a statement is false by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its acceptance. First recognized and studied in classical Greek philosophy (the Latin term derives from the Greek "εις άτοπον απαγωγή" or eis atopon apagoge, "reduction...
 
@aclarke lol. That's very close to my problem.
 
Breaking: auto_id != row number
 
user1646075
soo - the MySQL thing - at server startup - is 'helpfully' resetting the 'next auto' on all the tables? That's vaguely scary - waste of cycles just to begin with!
 
It's probably instrumental to stuff like their replication offerings and god-knows-what
 
@aclarke It tracks it in-memory. It does not make an effort to persist or something.
 
user1646075
7:48 AM
Codd help anyone who's seen an auto number stored on paper or file prior to deletion. Auditors will love that
 
user1646075
@MarkGarcia ewwwwwwwwwww
 
user1646075
why no stored in table header ;-(
 
user1646075
MySQL rough is.
 
Because contention. I'd say sequences need to be their own atomic DB entity, like in Oracle
 
@sehe That's before I know mysql's retardness. auto_increment greatly eases my implementations.
 
7:49 AM
morning all
@sehe don't be ridiculous
 
@MarkGarcia Of course, that's what it's for. It's just not for anything else than automatically generating ids
 
user1646075
@sehe an auto number stored in the table header doesn't cause more contention than you need. No reason it shouldn't be logged etc just like any other datum.
 
user1646075
or cached
 
@aclarke erm, so why stipulate it needs to be in the table header. Sounds to me you just confirmed the location shouldn't matter :|
 
I guess it's due to MySQL not storing transaction logs by default. So for cases like unintended shutdown you can't really rely on scheduled persistence.
 
user1646075
7:51 AM
without contention you've no guarantee you'll get a unique number per connection. So contention is mandatory.
 
user1646075
@sehe persistence.
 
user1646075
a number once allocated must not be repeated.
 
user1804599
@sehe What if I make (postal code, house number) combinations immutable?
 
@aclarke The difference is contention on the table header might block more txes than required.
 
@puppy you're the only one left to vote on your own proposal.
 
user1646075
7:52 AM
I'm ewwwing the fact it doesn't persist because memory only
 
@rightfold you tell me.
 
user1646075
@sehe table headers are virtually always in memory anyway. all they need is a dirty flag for flushing, along with teh usual physical and logical logging as per normal transaction integrity processing
 
@aclarke ah. that means, it doesn't reset the sequence. Instead: there is no sequence. Just a cached atomic max-id value
 
user1646075
@sehe according to Mark, yes in mysql
 
user1646075
wait, what?
 
user1646075
7:54 AM
mark is saying mysql only caches a non-persistent memory-only value per each auto field
 
@aclarke So, you're still confirming it doesn't matter whether it's in the table header. (BTW, I'm not sure what else is in the table header; I'd expect DDL to operate on them, but perhaps you're aware of more DML-related stuff in there. I'll stop)
 
user1646075
@sehe i'm only suggesting it's a good place as any, for persistent storage. but if they want to setup some special pages which hit the db, that will do just as well.
 
user1804599
@sehe I'll do that.
 
@aclarke I'd say that's a cleaner design. But we're getting adrift :)
@rightfold :) (YAGNI)
 
user1804599
One should be even more stupid than a use to misspell the postal code and house number.
 
user1646075
7:56 AM
@sehe adrift from addresses, yup. Not frm Mark's startling assertion abouut MySQL ;-)
 
MySQL is fully ACID compliant. In the literal sense of acid.
 
user1804599
Feb 12 at 19:14, by Cat Plus Plus
The only acid in MySQL is the one you'll want to bathe in to end your misery
 
@rightfold lol
 
user1646075
@rightfold having sat in offices in cunstomer land, all this and worse can and does happen
 
@aclarke A bit. Bike shedding over the physical organization of new DB entities within the DB schema is getting adrift. We're not designing this new feature for MySQL. We're bemoaning the lack of it
 
user1804599
7:57 AM
@aclarke Yup. But fuck them.
 
user1646075
@sehe yes, yes indeed
 
user1646075
@rightfold guess who's fault it is when they've screwed their DB?
 
user1646075
and before you answer, think about who pays your invoices
 
@rightfold When do we start
 
user1804599
@aclarke the user in question.
 
user1646075
7:59 AM
@rightfold a rational person would think that, yes....
 
user1804599
ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
 
user1646075
I want to work in your company. Just keep me away from the end-users.
 
@aclarke and only irrational people will say something else depending on origins of paychecks
 
user1646075
@sehe /shrug - it's kinda important to keep the supply coming.
 
user1646075
who said life was rational/
 
user1804599
8:01 AM
The Origin of Paychecks
 
no one did. I was observing, exactly like you
@rightfold s/the //
 
user1804599
The Origin of the Feces
 
user1646075
@rightfold paying customers.
 
user1646075
if only they'd do what they're told.
 
user1646075
anyway, addresses.... fun.
 
8:10 AM
@TonyTheLion damn you boy! I'm slowly reading that CPU article, like a paragraph a day is all I get. Keeps making me think it would be fun to work on a home-brew computer project!!!
 
oh you
 
I don't want to buy a big sake of low level electronics :'( but I do...
 
@thecoshman problems problems
 
@TonyTheLion shh you, I'll send you the bill
 
8:14 AM
hahah
 
Oh wow, a question that legitimately uses "urgent" in the title:
12
Q: How urgent is a *** System restart required *** for security?

kramer65To learn a bit of server administration I've set up a simple Ubuntu 14.04 server on which I run a personal website. I've set it to automatically install security updates, but leave out the other updates. This seems to work pretty fine. Occasionally I get a message when logging into the server (wi...

 
Makes me wonder what kind of filters Mysticial is running across new posts on SE
 
user1646075
@sehe nice - and that's mostly about UK addresses. Oh what fun it was adapting an australian system to cover the extra fields for UK
 
user1804599
@sehe I can also go pragmatic.
 
56 mins ago, by sehe
@rightfold variant<streetaddress, poboxaddress>, or stringly type it
Only an hour :)
 
user1646075
8:20 AM
eeek!
> Another from Jan Jongboom: Gondel 2695, Lelystad, means area Gondel, street 26, number 95
 
fuutch
The good thing is, no one needs to know except the mailman. And perhaps some other public services
 
user1804599
@sehe I have to be able to find duplicate addresses some way.
 
user1646075
@sehe ha - and db admins.
 
REALLY. You're so screwed
 
user1804599
Yup. :)
 
user1804599
8:24 AM
Addresses can have safety requirements and it would be tedious to have to re-enter them over and over again for every inspection that happens at the same address.
 
1234AB/40annotation normalized form (assuming dutchies)
 
user1646075
@rightfold so, coming over to your side; sometimes you need to rely on the goodwill and skills of the end user
 
@rightfold what are you working on? SE Fireworks?
 
user1804599
No.
 
user1804599
lol
 
8:28 AM
How come Code Review is still in Beta?
 
user1646075
Awesome.
rude place names http://maps.geotastic.org/rude/index.php
4
 
user1804599
> Tit
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Saying something is in Beta is basically a justification for potential bugs
 
user1804599
WHAT? Tits are nice, not rude. :{
 
user1646075
@rightfold tell me about it
 
user1804599
8:29 AM
> Weener, Germany
 
user1804599
lol
 
user1646075
literal vs. keyword
 
user1804599
Weenerschnitzel.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Because it is stupid separation and it should be part of SO itself. IMHO.
 
I'm sorry but did you just recommend that the OP output a URL to an authentication page from his console application??? — Lightness Races in Orbit 8 secs ago
@Loopunroller But it's been in beta for like 17 years
 
8:33 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit WTF
 
@aclarke Very rude indeed:
> This is a code thing by Gary Gale, made out of PHP, HTML, CSS and jQuery
 
user1646075
@sehe annoyingly, after putting that up, i'm not getting to the page. it's just spinning. puzzled i be.
 
Buy a better browser
 
@sehe Is there even any browser in development that's not free?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's probably the best beta site atm so it'll be promoted to full site soon. All its stats are excellent save for one
@VáclavZeman lol no
 
user1646075
8:36 AM
aaaaand now i see why
 
@Rapptz lol YES!
 
user1646075
definitely
 
should've converted in a link
he might have a life and be doing long polling of chat
that being said, what's wrong with a little destruction?! and hi
 
@sehe I got the joke. I was just asking out of curiousity, moron.
 
8:40 AM
Don't be so damn inquisitive, butthead!
I can't make the switch from "jokey" to "ooh curious" that swiftly
1 message moved to bin
And hi to you too. You may want to start with reading the newbie hints
 
@ShubhamGoyal You have to compile it.
@sehe Weird that others can while you can't. It seems you're purposely misunterstanding stuff that i write.
 
6 messages moved to bin
Sorry, it looks like it's time to hit Stack Overflow
 
@sehe - I did, mate, but the answers didn't help
And that is why I came here
 
2 mins ago, by sehe
And hi to you too. You may want to start with reading the newbie hints
 
8:43 AM
@ShubhamGoyal This is the Lounge
 
@Loopunroller dude, I'd rather you stop.
 
@Loopunroller Sorry, father it won't happen again. (Why is weird, by the way. I think it's pretty normal that people switch modes at different frequencies, and it's entirely common for communication to go slightly out of synch especially in written non-face convo...?)
 
Alright, if you want to make fun and be sarcastic, I will be off.
Good luck!
 
8:44 AM
@ShubhamGoyal yeah, that's pretty much the point of this chatroom.
 
@sehe I just feel like you're bullshitting me everytime we start a "conversation" :), and that is annoying.
 
user1646075
@sehe does that ever really happen?
 
Wow, finally someone who got it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz oops. I replied in style <grin/> I'll be off to my code then
 
@ShubhamGoyal top kek
 
8:45 AM
@sehe as if suddenly that rendered his response less shitty
 
So are we going to have a fun day or a fight day?
 
let's hug
3
 
user1646075
@LightnessRacesinOrbit toss a coin
 
I prolly failed that exam but I have no way to check right now
 
@aclarke What about, say, the parity of the 68464648846684'th Fibonacci number
 
user1646075
8:47 AM
@Loopunroller As Mother says in Alien...
 
user1646075
now if you nominated that Ackermann number, AND showed it, i'd be impressed
 
@Loopunroller Seriously? Well. I'm not. I think you might have gotten traumatized from my referee-ing when you were rolling over the floor with LRIO, maybe? Meh. I wasn't invested at all there. I believe you're cool, and treat you as I would any lounger.
About the "bullshitting" - well, that's something of a cultural thing here, to an extent. And your own contributions don't exactly evade that territory. Sorry if I misread your signals.
 
@Loopunroller Wolfram refuses to compute that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, that's the point. I stooped a little :) LRIO had a point. I noticed yesterday I was enjoying giving more curt responses than I usually do. I wonder what's up with me
 
user1646075
8:49 AM
@sehe you've been resident here too long
 
@sehe Just assume that i got the joke next time you're about to post a "didn't get the joke" GIF. Maybe the context was disadvantageous, on the other hand.
 
Nah. It's my mood alright.
 
Don't bother, send me more GIFs
 
user1646075
@sehe tell us how you feel
 
@sehe maybe you caught bartekisis
 
user1646075
8:50 AM
@Loopunroller honestly I thought that gif was aimed at me and the rude addresses fiasco. /so relieved!
 
@aclarke Are you afraid of sehe? Damn, that guy must have made himself a name
 
ITT bartek considering harmless, people running away from polar bears
 
user1646075
@Loopunroller not specifically, but it's early days. Could go either way ;-)
 
user1646075
more concerned with avoiding embarrassment on the internets. It's soooo personal and cold.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I always forget that. Looking at sehes profile picture, it looks like the head of an ape
 
8:55 AM
@Loopunroller Weren't you the one taking mild offense with that particular gif? Anyways, Glad it was /just that/.
I can honestly say, I was unable to see how your question about "non-free browsers" did not completely bypass the meme-nature of my "Buy a better XYZ" line. No biggie for me
@Loopunroller Et tu Brute
 
jesus who gives a fuck seriously
 
@BartekBanachewicz Do it yourself. It's O(log n) using matrices.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Many people. Increasingly many people, for related reasons
 
@sehe nope, it's just the two of you
 
And you! Hugs all around
 
8:56 AM
@sehe For the sake of ending this discussion, i excuse myself for being wrong again
 
you'd better stop before @thecoshman gets upset about it
 
truth...
 
@Loopunroller your check should be faster though
 
lol Abu Qatada found not guilty
 
as in, aren't fibonnaci numbers always alternating between even and odd?
 
8:58 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, absolutely! 1 is even and 1 is also odd.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Something like that
Yeah
 
Similarly, 13 is odd but 21 is even (or vice versa, depending on what level of batshit crazy you're employing today, @Bartek)
4
 

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