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5:00 PM
Oh wait, container, lol
 
He didn't get the range memo.
 
@CatPlusPlus He himself said that ref counting is a form of GC.
 
@FredOverflow His will force you to use std::find_if and all the usual iterator friends immediately afterwards.
 
OMG, C++14 allows me to say std::sort(container);? I can finally write what I want :)
 
user784668
@Griwes Bjarne did, whilst the Cat is talking about the commenter.
 
5:01 PM
@FredOverflow Erm, does it?
 
Ok, I missed that.
 
What you really want to write is C#.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I saw it on one of his slides.
 
LSDies.
 
Xeo
That's where he wants generic programming to be.
 
5:02 PM
Concepts Lite is not approved yet, is it?
 
Xeo
No concept_maps :'(
 
user1804599
No C++ :')
 
> There are no C++0x concept complexities.
 
:11609742 Erm, no, that's about the concepts things. AFAIK there's no container based library.
 
@CatPlusPlus lolzing
 
5:02 PM
And that is a pro? He seems to be claiming so.
 
It's a random demo sort function, not an std one.
 
Xeo
Sometimes, I have the urge to just plonk the pony.
 
@FredOverflow you already can: Perl is for that
 
Bjarne has already crossed the one hour mark. Anybody knows how much time he has in total?
 
user1804599
I want Bjarne's haircut too.
 
5:03 PM
become a monk
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow 2h, I think?
 
@FredOverflow One and a half.
 
Xeo
or maybe that
 
> 9:00AM to 10:30AM
 
@Xeo lol why?
 
5:03 PM
It's below the live stream.
 
@FredOverflow I'd say, at least some 10-15 more years
 
Xeo
@Borgleader His constant hating against C++ is kinda getting on my nerves.
 
meanie :)
 
@Griwes cheat
 
@Xeo Sorry.
 
5:04 PM
@Xeo I'm surprised you haven't plonked the cat then :P
 
Sure, mention groups and rings, which concepts-lite cannot handle properly.
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Wait, why are you apologizing now?
 
Yeah. We should all be adoring C++'s warts and awesome pitfalls
 
Who is the man in that picture?
 
Not sure I'm going to watch the next two talks, but STL starts at 30 minutes to midnight, can't miss that!
@StackedCrooked some philosopher probably
 
5:05 PM
@Xeo It is me. I created Zoidberg.
 
Xeo
lol
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked Plato
 
He meant one slide after that.
 
@not-rightfold I think he meant the other one
 
The one with the hat, yeah :)
 
user1804599
5:06 PM
Oh that guy.
 
C++14 not scyfy
 
user1804599
That's Hilbert.
 
user1804599
I guess.
 
Hell, if the name becomes Equality_comparable with this retarded casing in the standard, I might as well keep using SFINAE -.-"
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wait, did you skip ahead in the slides or something to see his find?
 
5:07 PM
David Hilbert, ForMemRS (; January 23, 1862 – February 14, 1943) was a German mathematician. He is recognized as one of the most influential and universal mathematicians of the 19th and early 20th centuries. Hilbert discovered and developed a broad range of fundamental ideas in many areas, including invariant theory and the axiomatization of geometry. He also formulated the theory of Hilbert spaces, one of the foundations of functional analysis. Hilbert adopted and warmly defended Georg Cantor's set theory and transfinite numbers. A famous example of his leadership in mathematics is h...
 
user1804599
Yes. :P
 
Nice.
 
@not-rightfold The one with the infinite Hotel?
 
Xeo
@Griwes That's pretty much what they're going for, AFAIK
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow The one with the space.
 
@Xeo Nah, twas in a previous slide as well (without concepts)
 
Xeo
ah
missed that
 
Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel is a veridical paradox (a valid argument with a seemingly absurd conclusion, as opposed to a falsidical paradox, which is a seemingly valid demonstration of an actual contradiction) about infinite sets presented by David Hilbert in the 1920s, meant to illustrate certain counterintuitive properties of infinite sets. The paradox Consider a hypothetical hotel with a countably infinite number of rooms, all of which are occupied. One might be tempted to think that the hotel would not be able to accommodate any newly arriving guests, as would be the case with...
 
@Xeo Incoming: #include <sane_concept_names>.
 
Why did everyone clap?
 
5:08 PM
Wow, first applause for Bjarne for not being able to sort a list :)
 
Finally stopped talking?
 
@FredOverflow lol
 
user784668
@Borgleader Because he showed an error message.
 
@Borgleader error reporting I guess
 
Xeo
@Borgleader Cat hates on everything, and he does it an (imo) funny way.
 
5:09 PM
Valid point.
 
@FredOverflow more like a golf clap :)
 
Xeo
auto find(Sequence const& s, auto&& v) // want
 
Ell
@sehe thank you for streaming going native!
3
 
He doesn't stream it.
 
Ok so, Bjarne keeps saying STL. Does that mean I can tell H2CO3 to shutup next time he says something like "You should be using the standard library instead of the STL" ?
 
Ell
5:10 PM
oh.
Ohhh. Well thnak you for the link anyway
 
msstudios in the link should've given that away, really.
 
@Ell microsoft is streaming it.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus yeah well
 
@Borgleader No, you can say "Bjarne sucks at using proper terminology."
 
He just extracted the stream URL from their crappy Silverlight client.
 
5:11 PM
@Borgleader Yes, I permit it.
 
user784668
@Borgleader You can tell H2CO3 to shut up next time he says anything.
 
(Disclaimer: I tend to slap everyone using the term STL, unless it looks like it would result in a long flame war.)
 
You mean Bjarne sucks at sperging about irrelevant terms
 
user784668
@Griwes Because you don't know it means "STandard Library".
 
@Fanael Should I slap you with tomalak's post?
 
5:12 PM
What the heck is he talking about?
 
Xeo
No, but you can slap Tomalak
 
lol
 
Never not.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Overload resolution with concepts?
 
I don't share his experience with Haskell.
 
5:13 PM
What's he saying about Haskell?
 
> You can't do printf-style debugging in Haskell.
 
He said haskell can suck his dick.
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus That it's difficult to change an interface.
 
> d) this would be more of an explicitly open-source, we're-not-about-the-money thing from the beginning, aping the WordPress model. I want the whole web to benefit from better forum software, FOR FREE. But written in node.js so it'll be riding the leading edge of Atwood's Law and not the hell on earth that is PHP.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus debugging is hard or something
 
5:13 PM
Why does the wikipedia page for ASCII say that the data set contains 128 characters when its actually 127?
 
Even in this sentence he managed to link to his blog, amazing.
 
user784668
@TheGuyWhoCouldn'tTalkToTheGirl Because it's 128.
 
@TheGuyWhoCouldn'tTalkToTheGirl Because it is actually 128.
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow Debug.Trace!
 
@Ell :lol:
 
5:14 PM
@TheGuyWhoCouldn'tTalkToTheGirl 128
 
Xeo
void sort(Container& c) want
3
 
@TheGuyWhoCouldn'tTalkToTheGirl Why the fuck did you come here screaming "I cannot into math"?
 
@TheGuyWhoCouldn'tTalkToTheGirl Wikipedia. The answer lies in your question!
 
Xeo
Gimme implicit template parameters :<
 
@TheGuyWhoCouldn'tTalkToTheGirl 0 to 127 is often 128
 
5:14 PM
@FredOverflow thats deep
 
user784668
@Borgleader Often, lol.
 
@Borgleader ASCII goes from 0 to 126.
 
user1804599
@TheGuyWhoCouldn'tTalkToTheGirl Run $ seq 0 127 | wc.
 
user1804599
 % seq 0 127 | wc
     128     128     402
 
@Xeo struct Container; void sort(Container & c); // oops
 
5:15 PM
402 is the correct answer.
 
@FredOverflow 127
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus 128128402. That whitespace is the thousand separator.
 
Ell
Oh, someone has starred my faux pas
 
@FredOverflow Oh really?
 
Ell
Or however you spell it
 
Xeo
5:16 PM
> Here's... here's merge...
 
@Griwes Yeah, they totally didn't think of that..
 
@Ell foh pah.
 
user1804599
inb4 conceptname keyword.
 
Skudenfrudi
 
omg look at merge
 
5:16 PM
@Borgleader ASCII 127 looks different on my Linux and Windows machines. That's a strong hint :)
 
A hint that Windows is wrong, yes.
 
@FredOverflow 127 is a control character code. It doesn't "look".
5
 
127 looks like a house on windows.
 
user1804599
127 looks like an odd number.
 
user784668
@FredOverflow Kill Windows with fire.
 
5:18 PM
Stop talking already Bjarne, I want my question answered :(
 
The roof is on fire.
 
I said "when its actually 127" because I was looking it up on google and some sites just said 127. I didn't realize it starts from 0.
 
"How can we make programmers prefer modern styles over low-level" good fucking luck
 
Fuck templates, I'm gonna stay with void pointers ;)
 
user784668
@Borgleader 1. Don't use C++.
 
user784668
5:20 PM
Solved.
 
@Borgleader Ahahahahaha he said that unironically in a presentation about C++.
Good job.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus Why is that funny?
 
With all these people still using Borland C++ compiler, that's just not happening xD
 
Usage of modern C++ style has increased a lot over the years. (I think..)
 
I used a Watcom compiler back in the 90s. It was awesome.
 
5:21 PM
Ah, but is it awesome now ?
 
@Ell Because taking it seriously is too scary a possibility to consider.
 
@Borgleader we need a C++ compiler
 
When does this Going Crappy ends, I want to make fun of codinghorror's forum endeavours here.
 
@A.H. clang
 
that supports modern C++ and is cross platform
 
5:22 PM
And nobody is paying attention :<
 
@CatPlusPlus Friday
 
Pattern Matching
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Roughly 7 hours.
 
user784668
@CatPlusPlus do eet
 
user784668
5:22 PM
NOW.
 
Xeo
@ÓlafurWaage Yeah, but based on class hierarchies / embedded identifiers / exceptions, as far as his paper is concerned.
 
fuck only 7 minutes left and he just won't stop :(
 
Xeo
I took a look at the example implementation
 
Still
 
@Xeo Wait, what?
 
Xeo
5:23 PM
gimme polymorphic values
 
@Ell Because despite layers of complexity that keep on growing on top of C++, it is still too close to the underlying hardware to be "high-level".
 
There's a proposal for pattern matching on C++?
 
Xeo
yes
 
Oh gosh, please no.
 
5:23 PM
I want to see it.
 
@CatPlusPlus I wouldn't call it lowlevel
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol why not?
too complex?
 
@A.H. It's mid-level.
 
@Borgleader Because today he hates everything.
 
@Xeo Any links?
 
Xeo
5:24 PM
Trying to find it
 
@Borgleader Because he knows what the result is likely to look like.
 
user1804599
C++ has pattern matching.
 
user1804599
switch :D
 
I think pattern matching could be really cool though.
 
5:25 PM
#include <iostream>   // Okay, I guess need output...
#include <complex>    // lol, isn't C++ complex enough as it is?
2
 
@not-rightfold TMP
 
pattern matching ?
 
user1804599
@Xeo Type switches? try/catch!
 
Xeo
@not-rightfold That's one of the example implementations.
 
@Xeo Type switch? That's not "pattern matching".
 
5:26 PM
In computer science, pattern matching is the act of checking a perceived sequence of tokens for the presence of the constituents of some pattern. In contrast to pattern recognition, the match usually has to be exact. The patterns generally have the form of either sequences or tree structures. Uses of pattern matching include outputting the locations (if any) of a pattern within a token sequence, to output some component of the matched pattern, and to substitute the matching pattern with some other token sequence (i.e., search and replace). Sequence patterns (e.g., a text string) are of...
 
@not-rightfold boost variant visitation
 
It's just an inline overload set.
 
Or just plain old overloading.
 
No wonder it's based on class hierarchies.
 
Yawn, another "draw all the shapes" example?
 
5:27 PM
Kinda like inline variant static visitors.
 
Xeo
variant<Just<T>, Nothing>
But that fucks over argument deduction :<
 
Q&A time == lunch time
 
I have a question.
Where the fuck are the thousands of libraries.
 
Evening
 
What's with all the language feature grafting.
 
user1804599
5:29 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes hg.python.org
 
Ell
I can't hear him :O
 
Xeo
Oooh, I like the type-class question
 
Hmm Stroustroup
 
Will he show the library size graph again?
 
pro tip: while bringing the microphone to an asker in the audience, answer an online question!
 
5:29 PM
Maybe not, because it would be a repost.
 
user1804599
Probably not, because it disappeared.
 
Because the library still has the same size. Well, except for dynarray, maybe. shudder
 
@FredOverflow haahhaha
 
Btw, Haskell has the problem of feeding slides to the compiler solved a long time ago.
lol
 
Xeo
wow, that accent
 
5:31 PM
hehe
Bjarne is funny
 
Ahaha compilation time question
 
Overloading by concept could allow for sorting on non-random-access iterators I think.
 
@Xeo I didn't understand anything?
 
lol, header only programming
 
@TonyTheLion I missed it =/ I was putting my lunch in the microwave
 
5:32 PM
What was the type-class Q/A?
 
Ell
zeee ederr time programeeng izz ... ow you say... slow
 
Xeo
> How much of the work & research done in the proglang community can be (re)applied to concepts? In particular, I'm thinking of Haskell's type-classes with combined with the powerful type inference -- is it possible to "borrow" / adapt some of that work?
Matt_PD
I want my concept_maps :<
 
user1804599
> header
 
lol, powerful type inference.
 
...So where was the C++84 in the talk?
 
user1804599
5:33 PM
MODULES Y U NO THERE YET
 
I talked about that with the puppy last night.
 
user1804599
IT'S MOST IMPORTANT
 
Not gonna happen.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Polymorphic values?
 
Xeo
5:33 PM
10 mins ago, by Xeo
gimme polymorphic values
 
C++ picked the other route at birth (taking implicit conversions from C and adding overloads).
 
In C# is a bool guaranteed to have atomic read/write?
 
good string question
 
@TonyTheLion No.
 
@TonyTheLion Unlikely.
 
5:34 PM
@TonyTheLion Depends on what you mean by that.
 
@FredOverflow yeah
 
Use System.Threading.Interlocked.
Or volatile (in C# it's not like C++).
 
user1804599
Actors.
 
@FredOverflow ie, could you read/write a bool unchecked by some synch mechanism between on multiple threads?
 
Welp.
34
Q: Is a bool read/write atomic in C#

dbkkIs accessing a bool field atomic in C#? In particular, do I need to put a lock around: class Foo { private bool _bar; //... in some function on any thread (or many threads) _bar = true; //... same for a read if (_bar) { ... } }

 
5:35 PM
@TonyTheLion If one thread writes and another one reads, and you don't synchronize, you have no guarantees that the new value will ever be read.
 
@CatPlusPlus Oh gawd so much wrong.
 
did he just start his question with "in javascript?"
 
haha, return a range question.
 
Xeo
lawl
 
5:36 PM
He's lost.
lol
 
A Tour of C++
Must. Buy.
 
@TonyTheLion It's available for free online.
 
oh nice
 
Did he just say there are people working on ranges?
 
@FredOverflow Ok
 
5:38 PM
They are doing so hidden then.
 
@TonyTheLion It's the first chapter of the big book.
 
user1804599
> We gave it a ….
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes vOv 5.5 is still in the spec.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes And that there's a proposal!
 
user1804599
What did he say there?
 
5:38 PM
Only NSA knows it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That is what I used in the end.
 
We have people working on C++, yes.
Next question.
 
@CatPlusPlus Irrelevant.
 
user1804599
> Live broadcast will be starting soon.
 
It doesn't mean it's safe to use with threads.
 
Xeo
5:38 PM
Hm, I could use this time to buy something to drink
 
You still need locks for visibility.
 
Well, there's visibility, yeah.
 
Xeo
> Any chance we will see variant types and exhaustive pattern matching in C++? They are much easier to reason about than class hierarchies usually.
 
It only means that volatile on longs is broken.
 
Or volatile?
 
5:39 PM
Yeah.
 
Anyway, I think I fixed the code correctly then, it had some race conditions
 
@Ell no need to thank me, if all is well, an exceptionally LQ (but hopefully usable) version is uploading currently to downloads.sehe.nl/stackoverflow/GN2013_KeyNote_LQ.mp4
Hopefully, since it is what I'm going to watch right now
 
Whats the first talk after the break?
 
Xeo
scroll down
 
@CatPlusPlus Downvoted top answer for being misleading, upvoted second.
 
5:41 PM
"Going Native" is the eleventh episode of the sixteenth season of the American animated sitcom South Park, and the 234th episode of the series overall. It premiered on Comedy Central in the United States on October 17, 2012. Plot Butters begins acting out at school, beating up a fellow student seemingly without provocation, and then later excoriating his male classmates for being stuck-up and disingenuous, save for Kenny, who he says is the only one with any dignity. When his parents learn of his increased anger, they explain to Butters that they are originally from Hawaii, that Butters ...
 
I'd downvote but rep divisible by 10.
 
@Xeo can't scroll down in my vlc
 
@Xeo im watching in vlc...
 
Xeo
You guys suck!
 
(Also there's that thing about downvoting highly upvoted answers being completely futile and pointless exercise)
 
Ell
5:42 PM
what header is std::move in? o.O
 
user1804599
How long does the break take?
 
@Ell utility
 
Xeo
@Ell <utility>
 
@Xeo No. We rule. Because browsers suck for video watching
 
Xeo
@not-rightfold 30 mins, started 10mins ago
 
user1804599
5:43 PM
@Xeo Ah, nice. I'll go eat in the meantime.
 
VLC does seem to get stuttery after a few minutes.
 
@CatPlusPlus Not gonna comment trying to correct it. Fuck that. I got enough in the Asylum already.
 
Ell
thank you
 
Next up at #GoingNative2013, Sean Parent is going to speak about how amazing OO and inheritance are. Wait, that might not be right...
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
5:43 PM
Guy realised he was wrong and apologised in the end, but I had to call "slander" for that to happen.
 
user1804599
That's like voting for a politician just because it got the most votes.
 
@sehe Sean Parent answered a question of mine on SO :D
 
But GAMIFICATION GAMIFICATION GAMIFICATION THE BEST WAY OF DOING THINGS
 
@StackedCrooked Coool. What was the question?
 
Fuck voting.
 
Ell
5:44 PM
@deadmg I think maybe you are missing an #include <utility> in Util/Ranges/Optional.h
 
user1804599
GoingNuts.
 
Ell
(omgawd robot forgot an include!)
 
Well, it was relevant for him.
 
user1804599
GoingInsane
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Really. That's quite a feat. I didn't think he'd have the guts to admit that.
 
user1804599
5:44 PM
Today was a wonderful day, by the way.
 
JBL
Finally home !
 
Wheatherwise
 
JBL
Let's tune in !
 
5 mins ago, by sehe
@Ell no need to thank me, if all is well, an exceptionally LQ (but hopefully usable) version is uploading currently to http://downloads.sehe.nl/stackoverflow/GN2013_KeyNote_LQ.mp4
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you ripped someone to shreds?
 
5:46 PM
To shreds you say?
 
@Borgleader Quite politely, although the use of the word "slander" was a sort of unexpected climax
 
user1804599
Hmm.
 
@sehe I see, got a link? :)
 
Xeo
alright, brb shopping
I don't think the next talk will be that interesting anyways
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Who's Guy? Is he French?
 
user1804599
5:46 PM
Let's see if I can get public-key cryptography working in Go.
 
@Borgleader I'm tired of linking there. It's in the asylum. Look for 'rename traits' threads
 
JBL
@sehe Thanks
 
@StackedCrooked lol
 
@sehe alright :)
 
user1804599
That music is horrible.
 
5:48 PM
@JBL It's still uploading at 140mb of 244mb
 
@Borgleader You can watch in VLC? Awesome!
 
JBL
I kept the link.
 
Compilation requests are really gettin out of hand. Just got 16k+ of them in ~10 hours.
 
user1804599
> The message must be no longer than the length of the public modulus less twice the hash length plus 2.
 
user1804599
What do they mean by "less"? Minus?
 
Ell
5:49 PM
yah
 
@FredOverflow Yeah just open network stream with the link on the starboard :)
 
@FredOverflow I posted the link right at the start, it's on the ^
 
What do I do with the link? I pressed Ctrl+D, Network, pasted the link, pressed play... and nothing happens :(
 
It's more on the > than ^
 
Something. I had to do something tonight.
 
Ell
5:50 PM
Has anyone here compiled Wide?
 
It took 30s of reading the source for the GN web page
@R.MartinhoFernandes The dishes
 
@FredOverflow Ctrl+N
 
JBL
So, quickly, how was the talk by Bjarne ?
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes Pub quiz? I only suggest because you forgot some time :P
 
@FredOverflow What do you do for a dayjob? Surely you have met with a "File Menu" before :/
 
Ell
5:51 PM
I'm watching via browser vlc plugin :3
 
@Ell Only next week (it's once a fortnight).
 
Ell
Ahh okay
 
Oh! Buying the ape's book.
 
Ell
The Ape has a book? :O
 
@Ell Or bowling night !
 
5:52 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes sbi wrote a book!?!
 
...
God. People. Conclusions. Jumps.
 
@sehe Only in two weeks! I have it all under control!
 
@Borgleader Ctrl+N is the same as Ctrl+D, Network. When I press play, the link appears in my playlist, but then nothing happens.
 
@sehe It's a mat that you can put on the floor!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah yeah. No guarantees
 
5:53 PM
@FredOverflow Oh ... uh well idk. Works on my machine (tm)
 
(No, I don't. I'm getting overwhelmed with appointments and shit)
 
@JBL Typical Bjarne talk, lots of repeated content, the concepts stuff at the end was interesting.
 
@CatPlusPlus Without the mat s/lu/us/!
^ this one is particularly clever
and useless
 
@Ell Will have. After I buy it and give it to him.
 
Ell
Ahh, you're buying him a book
 
5:54 PM
And now I'm off to the store.
 
Ell
Bye :)
This music is funky
 
@Borgleader Hey, it works now! You know what fixed it? Just doing nothing and wait.
 
rofl nice
 
CPU usage watching with Firefox: 90%
CPU usage watching with VLC: 10%
Talk about efficiency...
Does Firefox do video scaling in software or what.
Oh cool, my typing isn't delayed by a second anymore now!
By the way, I didn't want to make popcorn, so I made corn instead :)
 
@FredOverflow Law of automation: You do what the computer tells you what to do
 
Ell
5:58 PM
Hmm I really ought to learn how to submit patches
 

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