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2:00 PM
Anywho, time to go to Orientation yet again.
 
Ell
We can make cockroaches communicate remotely, so why not humans?
 
@Ell We've done a brain to brain interface between rats or a human and a rat or something.
 
@Ell complexity.
ethics
 
JBL
Though that's still very basic.
 
2:01 PM
@Chemistpp my condolences
 
I would love to have a program make art from my mind. I suck at it manually.
 
Do we really want to have mind control? Government already has enough control
 
It would probably kill a lot of jobs, though.
 
Ell
I want mind communication, not necessarily control
 
@sehe Thanks :/ I went into organic chemistry not analytical to minimize it at least. Still can't avoid it completely.
 
Ell
2:02 PM
and recording dreams
 
@JBL I'm sure the interface could be improved - it just needs some cross-platform language downloaded into your brain.
 
@FredOverflow I took a shot at implementing Shellsort, and compared it to std::sort. My implementation is bloody slow.
 
JBL
@MartinJames Yes, now implement "downloading cross-platform language into a brain".
 
@JBL I tried with Java, but my brain rejected it.
 
JBL
@MartinJames JVM could not load ?
BrainFactory.
 
Xeo
2:04 PM
Hmm.. reading Hughes' paper on arrows right in the beginning might've been a good idea.
The Kleisli thing makes more sense now
 
@JBL There was too much garbage in my head for it to collect.
 
@Borgleader What gap sequence did you use?
 
JBL
Ugh, Going Native will start exactly at the beginning of my commute...
 
@FredOverflow Knuth (3x+1). But it's probably not just that. It's orders of magnitude slower.
 
2:06 PM
Quick question, what do you think is faster: O(n^(4/3)) or O(n log(n)^2)?
 
JBL
@MartinJames "OutOfMemoryException : will now attempt to free some space by deleting you last holidays memories".
 
Wrote a tool to filter CSV Files today with Qt. Maybe I'm able to blog about it later this week.
^ sometimes I question the authenticity of \@meetingcpp
 
@JBL Suits me - I was stuck in an airport for two days.
 
@Borgleader Well, if you think about how it scans memory, Shellsort is not very cache-friendly. Quicksort acts a lot more "locally", which is good.
 
@FredOverflow it depends on n, the constants, the context and the wind direction
 
2:07 PM
@sehe Right. Last time I checked, they crossed at like a billion or something (constant factors ignored).
 
@FredOverflow Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. I might still be able to optimize my implementation somewhat however.
 
@FredOverflow http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=x^%284%2F3%29%2C+x*log%28x%29^2
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes So, basically, instance Arrow (->) is just there for... consistency / a consistent look for composition?
 
@Xeo What? No. It is there because (->) is a trivial arrow.
 
Xeo
2:10 PM
Hm, it kinda sounded like that from the paper.
 
@JBL We Can Remember It For You Wholesale.
 
That's a Dick story
 
'Not a chance in hell' question of the day:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18616104/a-reduce-task-run-very-slow-than-all-other-task
 
@sehe Does Wolfram know log_2? Or do I have to write log(x)/log(2)?
 
@sehe Yes, with a cheesy loose adaptation in cinema and a lousy remake of that cheesy loose adaptation.
 
2:12 PM
@Borgleader Also, Quicksort is O(n log n), whereas Shellsort isn't. (Yet? Or maybe even proven can't be...)
 
@FredOverflow log_2 works
lol we don't know what shellsort is, because it's too complicated to figure out iirc?
 
@FredOverflow it shouldn't matter for complexity analysis. the log inside big-O isn't base-qualified for a reason
@R.MartinhoFernandes I totally don't recall seeing that
 
To be fair, the only other Dick-based movie I like is Minority Report.
 
O(n^n) is Shell Shock
 
> Shellsort has prospects of running in an average time that asymptotically grows like NlogN only when using gap sequences whose number of gaps grows in proportion to the logarithm of the array size. It is, however, unknown whether Shellsort can reach this asymptotic order of average-case complexity, which is optimal for comparison sorts.
 
2:14 PM
Oh and Blade Runner, if you want to call that Dick-based.
 
:/
 
Ell
What about Goldmember?
 
Let's face it, the best Dick adaptations are the loose ones.
 
I'm an a-cultural bastard. I've seen... zero of those movies, I think
 
@sehe Blade Runner is awesome.
3
 
2:15 PM
@Ell Ah! You meant "finger". For a second I was thinking of another member :< o.O
 
Minority Report is nice, and Total Recall (the one with Arnold) is fun.
 
@Borgleader If Sedgewick can't crack Shellsort, I'm not even gonna try.
 
Hehehe at least it was a fun implementation exercise
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wouldn't recommend running with a blade in your hand.
Is Shellsort the fastest sorting algorithm that runs in constant space?
 
I really want Ubik to turn out as good as Blade Runner, but Hollywood hasn't kept a good track record lately.
There's too much completely forgettable crap... like tears in the rain.
(Sorry, I had to do that)
 
2:20 PM
lollll @JerryCoffin should be here for this
 
Ell
@sehe indeed you were thinking of the right member :P imdb.com/title/tt0295178
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes like tears in the rain is another title (lacking titlecase), or is it a completely gratuitous reference to some line from those stories?
 
it's a reference to a line in the movie , yes that
 
@Borgleader so I learned ^
 
you should watch it (the whole movie) :)
 
2:33 PM
@sehe It's a totally gratuitous reference to a line in Blade Runner, yes (hence the "sorry" below).
 
Don't Be Sorry
I'm sure there's trope link opportunity dieing somewhere in the universe right now
 
My fileserver has become sentient. And it's mocking me.
 
@sehe Don't let it reproduce. Destroy all backups.
 
@MartinJames throw water on the hard drive
quickly
 
2:38 PM
@A.H. Especially if they're making grinding noises.
 
Only 80 minutes to Going Native 2013. We should capture the tension and burn it onto an 80 minute CD-R!
 
lol
 
@MartinJames Wait. It doesn't reproduce. In fact, it just fills up. However, it randomly beeps (one of the hotswap sata bays 'locks' is loose, I think). It randomly stops as well, though. This is quite hilarious, when I sigh and push my chair back, start making my way to the fileserver cabinet and can stop mid-stride.
A few minutes back the fileserver waited just long enough for me me to turn around and prepare to walk back to my chair before happily mocking me by beeping at me, louder this time.
 
JBL
@FredOverflow I'll miss Bjarne... :(
 
@FredOverflow No worries. I'm sure it will compress like a charm (I mean, 770 MiB of peak-level input through bz2 is 594 bytes according to my quick test)
 
2:52 PM
Is GoingNative going to be available anywhere after the livestream?
 
Ok, here is a this profound question: is kiss sexual? I reckon it is not, but my friends reckon it is?
 
In legends
 
Because if you kiss someone without consent, it would not be sexual assault?
 
ergh... most important object in an API, the object through which all actions are performed, the type you are given back from the API's functions, the type that you feed into the the API's functions. The cornerstone of the API... and not a word about how to use it, what methods it has, what the properties mean, how they are used, what they are for. (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
2:57 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes blade runner rape scene
 
JBL
RT @headinthebox: Great game of code Tetris today. Drop, push, rotate, ..., and all redundant junk disappears right in front of your eyes.
I'd pay for that.
 
@sehe How about FLAC or Wavpack, so we can listen to it on portables?
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow Reminds me, I need to get going in 20 mins to make it on time
 
@JBL Do you have to be somewhere else?
 
JBL
@FredOverflow Yeah, in the public transports...
 
3:00 PM
@FredOverflow Mergesort can run in constant space (e.g., of a linked list).
 
@Xeo Let's hope you don't get stuck in traffic or something.
 
Xeo
Nah, at worst, I have to walk 15mins home
the bus takes ~7 or so
 
3 hours ago, by FredOverflow
@sbi Last year, the live stream allowed you to go back in time. So you can also start several hours later with Bjarne's keynote.
 
JBL
@FredOverflow And I need ~1h45 to get back home ~~
@FredOverflow Oh that's fine then.
 
thats quite the commute
 
3:02 PM
Unfortunately, the Lounge does not go back in time, so you'll get spoilered to death before you even start watching Bjarne if you're not careful ;)
 
Xeo
I was about to mention that
 
@JBL Wow, I travel 40 minutes and that already seems long to me.
 
JBL
@FredOverflow That's temporary, but quite painful yeah...
 
Well, as long as you have an iPod or a Kindle or whatever...
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, it runs in constant space if the data structure pays the cost for the extra linear space :)
 
JBL
3:04 PM
My labtop.
 
@JerryCoffin Doesn't mergesort require O(log n) stack space for the recursion plus O(n) additional temporary storage?
 
JBL
It helps a bit.
 
@FredOverflow wow, that's a seriously powerful livestream, do CERN know about this technology?
 
@JBL A labtop, wat is that? A computer that fits onto a laboratory? :)
 
JBL
Bleh...
Dat typo.
 
3:05 PM
@thecoshman Bjarne gave a talk at CERN once. You had to wait 10 minutes before it started, so yeah, I guess they know about time travel :)
 
mp3 (insane 320kpbs VBR) -> 175Mb
flac (defaults) -> 841Mb
 
Space, time conservation of elite programming - usually there is a trade off between memory usage & speed of execution. Of course you can suck, and spend longer time executing the same function while using more memory
 
0
Q: Insert data into std::map <std::string, int> mymap from two different data structure and sending it via socket

CattyI have declared map: std::map <std::string, int> mymap; I want to insert two values in above map *vit and hit->first and then sending and receiving via socket. My code: for (std::map < int, std::vector < std::string > >::iterator hit = three_highest.begin(); hit != three_highest.end(); ++hi...

 
@FredOverflow No -- there's a bottom-up version of merge-sort that doesn't require recursion. Though fairly recently invented (and somewhat complex) there's a method for merging in-place that only requires a small (and constant) amount of extra space. See: akira.ruc.dk/~keld/teaching/algoritmedesign_f04/Artikler/04/…
 
@sehe What exactly were you compressing again? Is the FLAC larger than the WAV? :)
 
3:08 PM
@FredOverflow erm, yep! dd if=/dev/zero bs=1M count=770 | sox -t raw -r 44.1k -e signed -b 16 -c 2 - tension.wav (~771Mb of pure tension; I cheated and didn't actually go for peak level - it's all differential anyways)
 
@JerryCoffin I have been looking for a way to get rid of the linear space for several years. Is there really a way? I'm so excited!
@sehe Where does the 770 come from?
But why is the FLAC ~10% bigger? Shouldn't it be super small?
 
Xeo
Flac? Small?
 
Fairly Large Audio Crap.
 
@JerryCoffin works with multithreading?
 
Xeo
I'm interested in why you think flac would be small.
 
3:10 PM
@Xeo At least it shouldn't be larger than the WAV. Also, pure silence should compress to nearly nothing.
In my experience, flac is 2/3 of wav, not 11/10.
 
@FredOverflow It's not silence, though.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's not? What is it?
 
(And it is not a general purpose compression algorithm either)
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 It would be up to you to lock the data structure while sorting (or did you mean the sort itself being multithreaded?)
 
Is multithreaded sorting really worth it?
 
3:13 PM
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I bought my first dual-core because I wanted to do multi-threaded quicksort :)
 
@FredOverflow yeah, but they will probably tell you something boring like we are all traveling through time.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes For external sorting, definitely. For internal sorting...not nearly as much, anyway.
 
@JerryCoffin merge sort can be written using multithreading by putting each recursive merge call using a new thread
 
@thecoshman Added to my file papers-to-check-out.txt ;)
 
3:15 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes depends on the amount of data and number of cores you have?
 
And then having all them threads fight for CPUs.
 
@FredOverflow o_0
@R.MartinhoFernandes threads are such a yarn
 
It's probably best to split down to [L1 cache] size, then sort in place, then merge.
 
Xeo
Alright, time to head home.
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 Yes, it can be (and the same with QuickSort), but it's much less useful than with external sorting. In particular, starting a thread is slow enough that you don't want to do it very often, or the overhead will outweigh the gains from multithreading. As usual, you're generally better off with a pool of pre-started threads, and a queue (or stack, etc.) of tasks that need to be carried out. A priority queue that places the smallest partition first automatically gives good behavior.
 
3:18 PM
Certainly not a thread for each merge/inplace. Shove 'em on a pool queue.
 
@Xeo I second that motion
 
SAM
40 minutes to go!!!!
Anybody gonna record it?
 
Xeo
err, C9 has a livestream
 
Thread pool, split down to [L1 cache] size chunks, submit to pool, merge on completions.
 
@SAM to go where?
 
3:20 PM
@Qwerty Going Native starts in 40 min
 
I'll miss the first 1-2 keynotes =/
Hoping to be back in time for andrei's
 
@Borgleader South Park?
 
@JerryCoffin Did fork/join make it into the C++11 standard library?
 
@MartinJames For a merge-sort, you almost never want to "split down" to anything. The first part of a recursive merge-sort gains nothing from recursion. It just says "sort the (first | second) half" repeatedly until the size reaches some lower threshold. You can accomplish the same by simply sorting chunks of N, then merging those chunks.
 
SAM
3:22 PM
@Borgleader You gonna miss the lord?
 
@SAM Microsoft is going to record it, you can download the videos a couple of days later.
 
@JerryCoffin Yes.
 
@SAM there will be VODs
 
@FredOverflow Yes and no. You can start and wait for threads, yes. The names of the functions aren't fork and join though, no.
 
SAM
@FredOverflow Ahhh yaaa that's what I wanted to here.....
 
3:23 PM
s/here/hear/
 
3 hours ago, by FredOverflow
@sbi Last year, the live stream allowed you to go back in time. So you can also start several hours later with Bjarne's keynote.
Also, there is only one keynote today :)
 
alright bbl
 
SAM
ya
 
Meh - someone will put it on torrent, eventually.
 
SAM
ohh
 
3:25 PM
You can also go forward in time: Bjarne's keynote for the impatient ;) (note the eye shadow, lol)
 
To Move or Not to Move: That is the Question. I am wondering what this talk is about))
 
About move semantics, what else?
 
268
Q: What is move semantics?

dicroceI just finished listening to the Software Engineering radio podcast interview with Scott Meyers regarding C++0x. Most of the new features made sense to me, and I am actually excited about C++0x now, with the exception of one. I still don't get move semantics... What is it exactly?

2
 
Wow, that looks like an interesting question! Have you read the answers yet?
 
@FredOverflow I am in process )
 
3:28 PM
@FredOverflow ITT: Fred fishing for (up-) boats.
 
SAM
30 minutes !!!!!!
 
posted on September 04, 2013 by Eric Battalio

Going Native kicks off today! If you made it to Redmond to attend, I look forward to meeting you. If you could not make it this year, you still have a front via Channel 9. Here is day one content: 9 am, Bjarne Stroustrup, The Essence of C++: With Examples in C++84, C++98, C++11 and C++14 11 am, Sean Parent, C++ Seasoning 1:15 pm, Andrei Alexandrescu, Writing Quick Code in C++, Quickly 2:30

 
@SAM Don't you have more interesting plans? 4example the new season of The Big Bang Theory starts soon )
 
@JerryCoffin Hey, I didn't post that question. I just found it funny that he posted it and linked to me.
 
Nice work @FredOverflow
 
3:31 PM
@FredOverflow I just found the "fishing for boats" phrase funny (but I'm barely awake yet...)
 
What is the deal with chipping in for a server?
Is chatoverflow going away?
 
SAM
@Qwerty Are you kidding?!?!?!?
 
JBL
@FredOverflow And we were talking about mind control not so long ago. Coincidence ? I think not.
 
@ÓlafurWaage No, but it does seem open to (considerable) improvement.
 
@SAM Not exactly)))
 
3:32 PM
rgr
 
@JerryCoffin Money grab!
 
Does this work for anyone? It just keeps loading here but never starts...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Money? What money? Where?
 
@FredOverflow Works for me..
 
@JerryCoffin How should it work? It looks disgusting
 
3:35 PM
@FredOverflow For sufficiently loose definitions of "work", yes. Still Slayer though, so certainly nothing close to "works well".
 
@Qwerty Designed by rightfold, what did you expect?
 
@MartinJames It won't work on YouTube, but downloading works, yay :)
Oh, it appears to be a fan vid. I thought it was official.
 
@FredOverflow YouTube OK for me though, like some others, not a Slayer fan.
 
JBL
Welp, time to go !
 
Yeah, time for pooch perambulations.
 
3:38 PM
@JerryCoffin What features could be improved?
 
@FredOverflow Better ability to track conversations (e.g., color-code by thread), ability to toss somebody if they're being obnoxious, etc.
 
SAM
20 minutes O_O
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Going Native 2013 Live Stream: channel9.msdn.com [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [meta-dumbness] [no-questions]
 
> Trying to plan a C++ party for tonight or tomorrow :)
I just...
 
3:43 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes who?
 
%)
 
That must be one of the geekest party one could think of
 
@FredOverflow lemme guess: you want in.
 
What's that music? Oh, the live stream started.
 
@FredOverflow Some dude on C9.
 
3:44 PM
@Telkitty猫咪咪 It will be full of (template meta) wankery.
 
What exactly is a "C++ party"?
 
WHOA. Big Ass Boom Box in the side-chamber
 
Cool, I have cold beer in the fridge... Should I? :)
 
@FredOverflow Dunno. Sounds annoying.
 
Turns out I had the C9 page open. And the HiFi at -6dB :)
 
3:46 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes He probably means a Going Native watching party.
 
My chief is sitting behind me. So I can't watch Going Native in a real time
 
You mean your boss?
 
@FredOverflow yes
 
Or are you working at the police or something ;)
 
He's in jail.
 
3:47 PM
@FredOverflow lol ))
 
I hope the livestream will work on my computer.
We should totally get one of us to give a talk at Going Native 2014!
Anybody got stage fright? :)
 
Xeo
o/
 
@Griwes as long as they don't put ':=:' everywhere ...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes chief has different meanings)
 
Groovy shit.
 
3:49 PM
@Telkitty猫咪咪 What was that again? Pass by preference? :)
 
oh
How on earth is a :=: b any clearer than swap(a, b)?
 
Xeo
It isn't! :D
 
@FredOverflow But it's an ~operator~.
Not a ~function call~.
 
Xeo
3:50 PM
It'd rather have infix function calls instead of such bullshit :<
 
s/./!/
 
hahaha
 
Xeo
a `swap` b
 
SAM
@FredOverflow me too
 
That ! would make the trolling more clear.
 
3:51 PM
C++ Concurrent Queues sounds interesting
 
I think a = b is also too obscure. I'm gonna write assign(a, b) from now on!
 
user784668
@Xeo let x, y = y, x in …
 
template<typename LHS, typename RHS>
LHS& assign(LHS& lhs, RHS&& rhs)
{
    lhs = std::forward<RHS>(rhs);
    return lhs;
}
 
@Xeo So you basically want Haskell?
 
Xeo
@Griwes In many aspects, I'm inclined to say "yes".
 
3:51 PM
:P
 
callFunction(swap, {a, b});
 
Xeo
Of course, since C++ lacks proper pass-by-name, that would look much uglier.
Even with my proposal it wouldn't look as nice
a `[]foo` b
 
Just lets not turn this into APL. All im asking.
 
need a swap operator ...
 
Xeo
Maybe I should change the proposal to [foo], aka a `[foo]` b!
 
3:53 PM
like <->
 
SAM
please someone comment here when the event starts on his browser.... please
 
@SAM It starts when the awful music stops.
 
SAM
music????
 
Xeo
3:55 PM
@Griwes I know, but that's more of a bad hack :/
 
SAM
i dont here that
omg!!!!!
 
@Xeo It's an awesome hack.
 
Does anyone know the URL for watching GoingNative from VLC?
 
@SAM Did you go to the right website?
 
SAM
ya
 
3:56 PM
Did you enable sound? (Does YouTube work?)
 
Now there's some gay guitar strumming.
 
SAM
what???
 
Do you see a picture?
 
SAM
no
are you serious????
 
3:57 PM
Then you are on some weird machine that supports neither Flash nor Silverlight.
 
@SAM there is a picture with title
 
SAM
only black i can see
:(
 
@Griwes may be he uses IE6 ?
 
SAM
no
 
3:58 PM
This is what I see.
Are you on a mobile device or something?
 
SAM
i can't see that
no
 
What is up with that music.
 
What browser do you use?
 
@EtiennedeMartel It's made to annoy you.
 
SAM
firefox
 
user784668
3:58 PM
@FredOverflow GoingNaïve?
2
 
I've vlc displaying the GN2013 stream LINK: msstudios-chan1.wm.llnwd.net/msstudios_chan1
9
 
@Fanael lol
@SAM You have probably disabled some plugins or whatever.
 
SAM
like what?
 

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