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12:00 AM
Jesus man
 
OH
SO FindFirstNotificationChange can access the Root Device
BUT I CAN'T WHEN I USE DEVICEIOCONTROL
WELL YOU KNOW WHAT, FUCK YOU TOO WINDOWS. D:<
 
@Griwes I can understand some objections against static if, but... I can't really find any reasoning in Scott's post.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes "But the notion that std::futures from std::async are special seems to be pretty common" - doesn't the standard itself note that async futures are special?
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes As far as I can see, he's just clearing up a misunderstanding
 
@ThePhD Because FindFirstNotificationChange is implemented in the kernel in trusted mode, and your user code using DeviceIOControl is not.
 
12:01 AM
@Xeo Erm, what, exactly?
I am even more confused after reading the article.
 
@DeadMG How nice of the kernel. :c
 
@ThePhD It's a security feature!
 
@Griwes Yes, it states that their shared state's destructor blocks.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I really don't get that objection. All they wrote in that paper was some set of abuses. And concepts don't really solve what static if can help to solve.
 
@DeadMG And they couldn't "security feature" the preferred method of getting information about the File System? :c
 
12:02 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes So they are special and Scott is already wrong in 4th paragraph.
 
@ThePhD I hate security in OSes, it's just so fucking annoying.
3
 
You sound just like a malware writer.
 
...
 
@Griwes Yeah, I don't get anything of what is going on in the post.
 
it's not even what we need to prevent security flaws.
 
12:04 AM
@DeadMG Meh, no stars after the edit.
 
posted on March 20, 2013 by Scott Meyers

It's comparatively well known that the std::future returned from std::async will block in its destructor until the asynchronously running thread has completed: void f() { std::future<void> fut = std::async(std::launch::async, [] { /* compute, compute, compute */ }); } // block here until thread spawned by

 
fine then
 
Shut up Feeds, that's a repost.
8
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think what he wants to clarify is not that the shared state of the std::future from std::async itself is inherently blocking, but the thread it's belonging to.
Which is a fine line, if anything
In effect, it doesn't make any difference, as far as I can see
 
"I hate when my malware can't run on its own!"
 
12:06 AM
 
@Xeo And what difference does that make? It's the same observable behaviour: futures from async behave specially.
 
Translation: "I'll buy your house, cash"
Seems legit.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, but the standardese doesn't quite say that.
Maybe he's just being extremely pedantic, who knows
 
So, he's nitpicking?
WTF
 
Xeo
Ask for clarification in the comments? :P
> I now believe that all futures must behave this way
 
12:08 AM
Also... "I now believe that all futures must behave this way, not just those returned by std::async." WTF
 
Xeo
This part I'm disagreeing with, though.
 
This makes zero sense, and the reasoning for it is not explained anywhere.
 
Xeo
Since the shared state of the future from a promise or packaged_task doesn't have an associated thread really.
Other than the thread it's created in, maybe?
 
@Xeo Yeah, I'm trying to understand the post better before I can formulate questions.
 
I wonder what those Java people are talking about now.
 
Xeo
12:09 AM
Also note
> Everything in this post could be wrong.
So maybe he's just starting up a discussion after all
 
@Xeo There's never an "associated thread": any thread that sees the promise can set it. Packaged tasks may be said to have one, but that's only because you cannot run it on two threads.
 
ITT: Standard library threading facilities blow.
 
.... q_q
Curls up.
 
@DeadMG Meh, only async and thread suck. The rest of the lossage is mostly for missing functionality, not for brokage.
 
Xeo
> The thread object [for the function to be run asynchronously] is stored in the shared state and affects the behavior of any asynchronous return objects [e.g., futures] that reference that state.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ^ associates the thread with the shared state
 
12:11 AM
I don't even know what std::async and std::futures are
Yes, threading related, but what are they?
 
> Drunken Robot Pornography:
> 30-story tall giant robots. Jetpacks. Guns. It all started so innocently. Your robot bartender, Tim, used to make the best drinks at your nightclub. But you gave him sentience so that he could better empathize with the customers. Struck by the world's problems, he went crazy, burned your club to the ground, and fled with your twelve exotic robot dancers.
 
@Magtheridon96 async launches a task asynchronously. A future is a value that may not be immediately available because it's still being computed.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes A task would be defined as?
 
A function.
 
Okay, thank you.
 
12:14 AM
@Xeo Yeah, but that alone would mean destructing the shared state terminates because not joined.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's where the second quote comes in
 
kewl.
My texture wrapper worked at first try
 
Yeah, and that second quote is the broken bit.
 
It has only about 150 LoC
and can make your life a lot simpler
 
If you remove that you don't need to store the thread anymore.
Actually storing the thread is only so you can join later and needs not be in the spec: it's an implementation detail.
 
12:16 AM
@BartekBanachewicz I doubt it can make my life a lot simpler.
 
It can already be removed without any change in behaviour, because the second quote is strong enough to leave you no other choice.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's the resolution I think
 
@BartekBanachewicz Still not seeing how it's going to enhance my Wide compiler.
 
> boost::noncopyable
 
12:19 AM
@DeadMG uh.
 
Ok, I think when he says all futures must behave this way, he means "the spec requires this for all futures", and not "the spec should be changed to require this for all futures".
 
@CatPlusPlus should I make constructors private instead?
 
I interpreted it as the latter and that was insane.
 
= delete
 
Now I think I can comment on it.
 
12:20 AM
@CatPlusPlus ok.
 
And I actually understand the post, I think.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Or don't declare them at all. They won't be autogenerated when you explicitly specify so many other special members.
 
Texture(Texture&& other) {
I don't understand what this is supposed to do. Are you passing a reference by reference, or is this some sort of C++11 feature?
 
@Magtheridon96 C++11
 
12:21 AM
hi all :)
 
Ah, I see
 
@DeadMG welp, I guess being explicit doesn't hurt
 
user1182183
boost::any MyVal;
boost::asio::udp::socket::receive(boost::asio::buffer((void*)&MyVal, MaxPacketSize), sender_endpoint);
 
user1182183
why is that not working but crashing.. ?
 
12:22 AM
would anyone have the patience to help out a C noob? Lounge<C> is dead as always hehe
 
Because you can't forcecast things into void* and hope they'll work?
 
> (void*)&MyVal
 
user1182183
@CatPlusPlus &MyVal can be done too but then just nothing happens..
 
> (void*)
@GamErix so instead of nothing happening you prefer crash
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah especially with the 1-877 phone number
 
12:22 AM
way to go
 
I can see you're making great progress on your multiplayer thing :thumbsup:
 
@GamErix Also, why aren't you using ZeroMQ?
 
user1182183
@BartekBanachewicz it has no udp sockets.
 
@GamErix and?
 
@Borgleader It's either a scam, or a money laundering scheme.
 
user1182183
12:23 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Well I can't wait to see the first game ever to use TCP !
 
> Ihr Tag ist nicht zulässig.: BLOCKQUOTE-Code kann nicht übernommen werden.
FUCK YOU BLOGGER
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's how I understand it aswell
 
@EtiennedeMartel I'm not sure which option I prefer...
 
@GamErix you are retarded, right?
 
Do you even know anything about networking or just heard that all games use UDP and go with it
 
user1182183
12:24 AM
@CatPlusPlus I know alot about networking.
2
 
@BartekBanachewicz He's still a child.
 
@GamErix ... my ass
 
> Ihr Tag ist nicht zulässig.: CODE-Code kann nicht übernommen werden
 
@GamErix Ha ha ha. You're funny.
 
FFS AOGH SKGHRKHA ERKHLEK HBKLEAHRKLBGSDg hserhy
 
12:24 AM
CODE-Code
 
@GamErix okey, so you are just poor uneducated little thing
 
Why would you blacklist <code> tags
 
@GamErix One does not simply know a lot about networking
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ahaha
@R.MartinhoFernandes Probably a default to blacklist almost all tags
Remind him in your comment to change that :P
Also, try <pre>?
 
user1182183
If any of you guys would use TCP for a RACING game, then you're retard. TCP has too many stuff which is totally not suitable for fast paced-games like racing or shooting. UDP instead provides what a racing game needs.
 
12:26 AM
Why can't we all be nice to each other? qq
 
@GamErix ohohohoo
tell me more
 
Is <pre> a flow element?
 
I want to educate myself about networking
 
You do know you have to implement these things TCP does anyway when you use UDP right?
 
@CatPlusPlus shush
 
Xeo
12:26 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes A what? (aka: no clue)
 
Let him speak
 
I know close to nothing about networking.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes joshduck.com/periodic-table.html (its a grouping element)
 
@Magtheridon96 thankfully @GamErix is an expert
 
> Ihr Tag ist nicht zulässig.: PRE-Code kann nicht übernommen werden.
 
12:26 AM
I have a tab open right now that explains absolutely everything about it
 
Meh, does not matter.
 
it's been open for 9 months
and I still haven't read it.
 
user1182183
@BartekBanachewicz Combining TCP and UDP? no way. UDP is enough. Why would you do that lol? Anyway, if you are going to use TCP
 
Just like all these other tabs I'm never closing
 
@Xeo Some elements can be used inline in text, some can only work as text blocks on their own (think <blockquote> for example).
 
user1182183
12:27 AM
the computer is going to nicely wait until you have enough packets before they will be sent..
 
1 min ago, by Cat Plus Plus
You do know you have to implement these things TCP does anyway when you use UDP right?
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah, I see
 
user1182183
and well.. with UDP they will get send immediately
 
@GamErix that's bullshit
 
user1182183
that's point no. 1 out of 1000
 
user1182183
12:27 AM
@BartekBanachewicz prove it it's not like that.
 
Buffering is pretty much irrelevant yeah
 
@GamErix prove it is
 
Fuck it, no monospaced code.
 
@CatPlusPlus only difference that I recall is TCP packets will always be received in the same order as sent. I'll have to look up the rest.
 
It's about latency
 
12:28 AM
And latency is the same.
Actually, on buggy networks, TCP can be better I guess.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It isn't.
 
Uh, no, it's not the same, because TCP can't drop packets inbetween
 
user1182183
@BartekBanachewicz name one racing/shooter game which does use TCP.
 
But you still reimplement large parts of TCP when you use UDP
 
user1357851
The day after equinox ...
 
12:29 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Windows does Nagle's algorithm by default I heard, which means he's (partially) right.
 
@GamErix you still haven't proven that TCP will always buffer
 
@BartekBanachewicz If packet 0 gets lost in the way, packet 1 will be delayed, even if ready.
 
user1182183
20
A: UDP vs TCP, how much faster is it?

Fernando BarrocalUDP is really faster than TCP, and the simple reason is because it's non-existent acknowledge packet (ACK) that permits a continuous packet stream, instead of TCP that acknowledges a set of packets, calculatd by using the TCP window size and round-trip time (RTT). For more information I recommen...

 
@MooingDuck and that's the first thing you disable
 
What a great question
Jesus
 
12:30 AM
@BartekBanachewicz and if you haven't disabled it, he's right. by default, he's right.
 
There are actually many cases where TCP is actually faster than UDP. See my answer below. — Robert S. Barnes Feb 15 '11 at 6:53
 
UDP is faster because it has almost no invariants to hold.
 
UDP is faster - 20 upvotes
good answer = 88
 
And that has a cost, which is why you often end up implementing some of those invariants on UDP back again.
 
It's a crappy question because it's not about speed
 
12:31 AM
> You probably shouldn't use UDP unless you have a very specific reason for doing so. Especially since you can give TCP the same sort of latency as UDP by disabling the Nagle algorithm ( for example if you're transmitting real-time sensor data and you're not worried about congesting the network with lot's of small packets ).
Also look at ZeroMQ benchmarks
 
Ugh you're just as bad as him, because twitch games do use UDP
 
They use UDP for various reasons
 
But he's cargo culting and not really understanding why
 
user1182183
UDP doesn't have all that firewall problem shit at least.
 
...
why am I even arguing
@Cat stop me right now.
 
user1182183
12:32 AM
but what the hell, I will create a TCP and UDP server, we will see.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm an expert at graphics rendering. I can double click any image and render it to my screen faster than you can say Donut
 
@GamErix use ZeroMQ you scrub
 
Yes, benchmarking is a way to prove anything in this discussion
You should both shut up
Ugh
 
I have a question.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes hm?
 
user1182183
12:33 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes no one is forbiding you to ask ;>
 
Where the fuck did I put my cell phone?
 
user1182183
@R.MartinhoFernandes desk
 
@GamErix you can't even create a server, so that might take a bit long
 
Sorry, I'll return it promptly
 
I'll give you a hint, it's somewhere you're not thinking of atm.
 
user1182183
12:34 AM
@BartekBanachewicz ah now I feel great knowing I actually made a working server with ZeroMQ
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes coat pocket
 
Better question: why the fuck did you put it there
 
Do you have a home telephone?
 
user1182183
AND also another server for another game with with just plain winsockets
 
If so, call yourself.
 
12:34 AM
@GamErix wanna fucking biscuit?
 
(Assuming your phone is on)
 
Log into Google account from a sandboxed browser
:v:
 
user1182183
@BartekBanachewicz Fanta is more preffered :p
 
@Magtheridon96 or, indeed, near
 
@GamErix Have a cookie
 
12:35 AM
@GamErix I'll explain : IOW it means "I don't give a fuck"
 
user1182183
ByTheWay, ZeroMQ is thread safe?
 
user1182183
ah then it's okay
 
Guys, why dis no worky? :( pastebin.com/aZ8g77nV
 
12:35 AM
it's so simple yet I don't get it
 
@KevinMurphy it's in C
 
We don't know
 
user1182183
@BartekBanachewicz why? I just need to be sure that I can actually make a separate thread for sending and separate for receiving..
 
@KevinMurphy You don't run it?
 
@CatPlusPlus Actually, I wanted to find it to get the code.
 
12:36 AM
@BartekBanachewicz I'm aware it's in C
 
@KevinMurphy you forgot to compile it
 
interesting, i thought i rebuilt it.. now it works.
MAGIC
 
@GamErix that's another great piece of bullshit
 
user1182183
@BartekBanachewicz why? I aim for a bit more performance by doing that.
 
12:37 AM
@KevinMurphy that's not an answerable question. Please add much more details when you make the stackoverflow question
 
no fuck me I am ignoring this idiot because honestly I can't stand it anymore
 
Yes do that
 
@KevinMurphy It's like this: the Loungers don't like C++. Guess how they feel about C.
 
user1182183
@BartekBanachewicz that's the reason why I have to learn things the hard way ;)
 
@GamErix lol
 
12:38 AM
I love C.
 
ahh... calm and peaceful.
@Magtheridon96 I knew there's something wrong with you
 
@Magtheridon96 That's fine - you sleep with it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh come on. It's not that bad.
 
@Magtheridon96 it's terrible
 
not as bad as Java :P
I used to like Java but then I because enlightened
 
user1357851
12:40 AM
ITT, we discuss magic programming.
 
C is worse than Java
at least now, now I don't really know Java yet
 
@BartekBanachewicz M'kay, I respect that.
I learned Java before
Never again.
 
Lets all laugh at C#
 
No C# is good
 
C is amazing.
@Doorknob That can be read in two ways. :P
 
12:42 AM
oh yeah :P
No, C# is good
 
(No) (C# is good)
(No C#) (is good)
 
Java# - Now with more garbage collection
 
J++ FTW
 
user142019
lol J++
 
Jython#++
 
user142019
12:43 AM
Haskell FTW
 
user142019
@Mysticial Don't judge what you don't know.
 
@Mysticial we all do know you don't know C
 
Xeo
I just noticed I never saw Andrei's "Iterators Must Go!" presentation
 
19 hours ago, by Mysticial
YES!!! I KNOW C!!!
 
user142019
> I believe …
 
Xeo
12:44 AM
> "I. Meade Etop" - Do you know this guy? "I made it up." -- Andrei
 
@Xeo Sounds more reasonable than 'Iterators must stop'
 
@Zoidberg Scroll up 1 message. Even Jerry confirmed it. :)
 
Xeo
@Mysticial Blind chicken and all that
 
I learned C++ and migrated to C then went back to C++ and now I do things C-style half the time and C++-style the other half.
 
user142019
You believe you know C!
 
12:46 AM
@Magtheridon96 C++ is superior to C in every aspect
 
@BartekBanachewicz No.
 
I know it is and I agree with you,
 
@MartinJames hm?
 
but that does not stop me from loving C
 
C should be banned from existence
 
12:46 AM
@BartekBanachewicz It's not available on all platforms.
 
I can C that this is a useless discussion
 
user1357851
@BartekBanachewicz according to his profile, he's a 16 yo game engine writer (in C++) who can also program in C#
 
@MartinJames the only one I know is PIC microcontroller
 
@Telkitty Hi.
 
apart from that, everything has C++
srsly.
 
12:48 AM
@BartekBanachewicz That's one.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yup. Also not available on 8035 series. 128 bytes of RAM may have something to do with it.
 
It could probably run FORTH
 
What happened to 640k?
 
12:48 AM
@CatPlusPlus No stack to speak of.
 
128 bytes is damn small
 
Remember to always buy memory chips with stack attached
 
it's one double 4x4 matrix
...
 
@BartekBanachewicz Toaster controller, (mod. Red Dwarf).
 
what the fuck has 128 bytes of memory god dammit
 
12:49 AM
8035 series are you even paying attention
 
@CatPlusPlus I am
I am just expressing my inability to acknowledge the fact
 
I started reading this book about Assembly a few months ago because I thought C wasn't low-level enough
 
@Magtheridon96 yea, way to go
 
Just go straight to microcode
 
you should use keyboard with only 1 and 0 from now on
 
12:50 AM
@Magtheridon96 On 8035, it isn't.
 
@MartinJames hehe
 
I read 30 pages of the book and stopped.
 
Or silicon
 
It's totally not for me.
 
@CatPlusPlus hard to distribute
 
12:51 AM
 
ITT Silicon is not portable.
 
I'm kindof amused and irritated that when I do a google search for an image the URL is too long to post in chat here.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I seriously want that
 
Xeo
Andrei can be seriously awesome when presenting something
 
12:52 AM
@BartekBanachewicz not to code in it, but to make people think I code with it
 
a search for CatPlusPlus' big avatar uses a URL 1466 characters long
 
small chat avatar URL is only 803 characters
 
@BartekBanachewicz When I tell people I program, they often start asking me what some string of random 1s and 0s means.
 
@MooingDuck You mean search by image?
 
12:54 AM
I think it's encoding the pic as base64 or something
 
It sends the image in the URL.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes
 
@Magtheridon96 Hmm, never had that reaction. Most muggles I meet don't really have a clue about what programming is.
 
the url for a 1600x1200 is only 1556 bytes though. hmm
@R.MartinhoFernandes really? Happens to me all the time
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes they'd be like "hey tell me what this means: 1010011"
 
12:56 AM
"WHAT DOES 1001101011 MEAN?" "That's not how computers work leave me alone"
@Magtheridon96 naw, it's never eight digits. ANd it always begins with 10
 
and I'd tell them "you're missing a bit"
 
And a brain
 
@Magtheridon96 whoops, I thought it was 8 :(
 
@Magtheridon96 "S"
or anything else
 
and... I'm late again. See you lot tomorrow
 
12:57 AM
@MooingDuck Some day, you'll be a Golduck with ameliorated vision
 
it's just a byte of data
it's not an information
so you might ask "what does 83 mean?"
 
@BartekBanachewicz I did some work on one of these years ago (112 bytes of RAM). Can't remember which, but at one point did some work with one that had only 64 bytes of RAM.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Or it's a string of 7 digits.
Who knows?
 

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