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12:00 AM
@Rapptz Well, yeah, they milk it because why not
 
@Xeo night
 
But if people stopped buying TF2 items suddenly, Valve probably wouldn't even notice
(Why do people even do this is beyond me)
(But still)
 
Because TF2 managed to put together a good self-managed trade-based economy
 
Because there's no TF2 server farm to maintain :v:
 
12:01 AM
Which is kinda weird I guess but it works.
 
What I'm getting at is that MMOs need money more so they tend to be more obnoxious about it
And they know their game is shit so subscription won't fly
 
Well, why do they need more money? I thought the most expensive part of managing would be the servers
 
AFAIR even WoW is bleeding subscribers because it's shit too, just one of the original shits
@Rapptz Yes, and MMO needs a lot of those and powerful ones at that
Not to mention the huge content budget they have to balance
 
@BartekBanachewicz it seems to have built, using an empty project, and your libs, thus dynamically. Except... it has the "failed to start" Error. I figured it was because of missing DLLS.
When building for Release, does it not make a Release folder, but shares the Debug one, or?
 
The real issue is don't play MMOs they suck
 
12:05 AM
@Pawnguy7 what does not make?
@CatPlusPlus you should go to sleep.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I got it to compile/link correctly: but when RUNNING it, I get this error:
 
Can't, I have a fucking uni assignment to finish
It's so boring I can't get to it
 
@CatPlusPlus what is it?
 
you can't share debug and release libraries.
 
Genetic algorithm for graph colouring
 
12:06 AM
"This applications was unable to start correctly (0xc000007b). Click OK to close the application.
 
I just don't want to write any code why are they making me write code
 
@Pawnguy7 what program is compiling the code
 
@CatPlusPlus oh fuck.
 
@DeadMG Yes, I am using and building the release folder, but there is no Release folder next to debug in (project is Pong) Pong. There is Pong\Debug but not Pong\Release.
 
It's not hard, it's just boring
 
12:07 AM
@MooingDuck MSVC?
Never mind. Apparently it automagically switched to Debug for some reason -_- generated Release folder now.
 
@CatPlusPlus I feel your pain bro.
 
The worst part is not even the code but the report
I don't want to be a scientist
Fuck off with shitty reports
 
Hurah. Got it to build AND run.
 
So I'm playing Hexagonest and waiting for flash of inspiration
32.14 best so far
 
Although... I still don't get how I got those errors earlier.
I wonder if it would link statically.
I don't understand. I can get it to build dynamically, but not statically... and I am befuddled again. It finds the include files, because it compiles. I defined SFML_STATIC. I used the release libs, and it does not say it cannot find them, so the path is correct...
 
12:17 AM
static linking sucks
anyway
 
static > dynamic
 
yeah for windows static > shared
 
@DeadMG in terms of size, that's true.
 
DLLs are horrible
 
actually, the resultant executable size is probably, in sum, lower for static.
 
12:17 AM
Yes, but in theory, static linking should work...
 
as the linker can strip more redundant symbols and not screw around with endless symbol tables and such shit
and no duplicates of executable file format
 
@DeadMG and inlining
 
anyway, the only theoretical benefit of dynamic linking is that you could replace that implementation with a new one later on without having to recompile your application
 
Anybody know why I can link dynamically but not statically? It could work, but... I am fond of static.
 
but in practice, this basically never happens.
 
12:18 AM
PE overhead is irrelevant
 
damn it pawn.
Just use what works.
 
add to that that dynamic linking requires keeping track of 9999 dynamic libs and their versions
it's a lot easier to just statically link everything you need and ship one executable.
 
I want modules.
 
I guess I will have to. I just don't understand...
 
modules suck.
 
12:19 AM
you suck.
 
it's "Header files, but they compile slightly faster".
 
he does
 
@Pawnguy7 No, we don't, you have to figure it out for yourself
 
no, modules are something you can import and it works
contrary to libraries and headers.
 
I have tried. I have no clue. As I said above, in my SO question, etc, all the proper things seem to be set...
 
12:20 AM
~~idealised~~
modules will probably suck but it'll be better than headers.
 
They will because it's C++
 
@CatPlusPlus you are getting Zoidberg-ish
you really should go to sleep.
 
everyone in this room has always hated C++ except a few people.
 
I should too.
@Rapptz still C++ is the most liked language here
according to the chart at least
 
C++ has too much tech debt
 
12:22 AM
I don't hate C++.
 
And a lot of backwards compatibility consideration
 
backwards compatibility with C
 
And previous C++ versions
 
it's C what sucks in essence
modern C++ is getting a lot better though.
unique_ptr
thread
 
So yeah some minor improvements to compilation model maybe, but it'll still be utterly retarded in one way or another
 
12:23 AM
and still the best
 
funny innit?
 
if I can import a couple functions I couldn't care less.
 
There is nothing best about C++ compilation model
There is nothing remotely good about C++ compilation model
 
yeah the C++ 2-files-for-1-class model is retarded as fuck
 
12:24 AM
oh I thought the language not compilation
Well, I'll wait until I see the modules in standard
until then it's only speculations
 
there are a couple of papers on the subject.
 
Right C++ the best language ever
 
certainly not the worst.
 
The best language that only 10 people actually understand completely and only 2 can implement
 
12:26 AM
you can read the pdf to get an idea
 
@CatPlusPlus still better than haskell :)
> The fundamental brokenness of headers
hahha
straight to the point
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not by any stretch but fuck if I'm going to discuss it again
 
nah nah nah
I will look at haskell after I learn Java
that won't take long, I think
 
You already know Java
 
I already know I can't convert byte[] to Byte[]
that is something
 
12:31 AM
Does anybody know of some extra setting one needs in VS to link statically?
Although, that would not really make sense, as the mocking libraries work...
 
LOL
C++ Hello World
LOC : 81
header LoC : 1,161,033
that's well.
that's fucked in the head.
 
Got to admit, that was one thing I enjoy about Java/C#.
 
@Rapptz this pdf makes sense IMHO
 
I guess
 
I want it.
badly.
We all want it.
 
12:36 AM
@BartekBanachewicz, have you ever used SFML statically?
 
@Pawnguy7 yes
pain in the ass.
 
That bad, huh? :D anyway, I was thinking...
Similarely to the Dynamic build, if it works for you, it should work for me...
 
> Clang implementation underway
 
yeah SFML static is annoying for some reason
 
yaaaaaay
 
12:37 AM
@Rapptz What would the reason be?
 
stupid as fuck macro and other things
It's as if he made it annoying on purpose
 
The macro isn't much of an annoyance. What other things?
 
#import C
if you don't import C, you don't get buggy shit
 
Huh?
 
I am daydreaming
 
12:38 AM
Ah.
For a second I was thinking extern, but that is different.
 
If it was my decision I would ban C from existence
burn it
 
@Pawnguy7 You have to maintain other libraries when linking (which you already have a hard time doing) that are appended with -s
You don't get full DLL freedom.
You still have two or so from the Audio package
 
That is true...
I don't think I have made a game with audio yet, actually.
 
audio is important as shit
 
Mostly because, I generally have things muted, and cannot make any decent audio.
I would hope to add it to a finished game, yes.
 
12:41 AM
art, music, design.
too much for a single person
 
Well, being able to statically link the libraries is a step in the right direction... if it worked... sigh.
 
You can go simple route a la minecraft and just generate blocks
if you suck at the art department I guess
 
I find the textures fine.
 
unique art
 
What's generated in Minecraft?
 
12:43 AM
@CatPlusPlus dang pedantry.
 
Er what
 
what are you asking?
It's procedurally generated blocks that happen as you move along the map.
 
Yeah but what does that have to do with art
 
it's not as art heavy as other models really
just my opinion I guess
 
It is made of cubes. I don't think it was supposed to be...
 
12:45 AM
CUUUUBES
i am going to seelp
 
What models did you have in mind?
 
Yeah but art is textures not the level itself
So :psyduck:
 
what are the :text: things?
 
pseudo-emoticons cat++ uses
 
You're pseudo
 
12:49 AM
Emoticons could be useful.
... if they were real.
I wonder if my problem is related to USE_STATIC_STD_LIBS.
 
1:05 AM
otoh there is no use-case for unions, so nevermind.
 
Will there be a C++14?
 
@Pawnguy7 probably not
I heard they're aiming for small fixes/library improvements for C++14, and big language changes in C++17. But in the real world nobody meets deadlines, especially committees with no money involved.
 
That has been proven time and time again... hm
 
We are expecting at least some changes in 2014 though
 
user1357851
Personally I hate any programming language that changes every 3 years
 
user1357851
1:13 AM
Prefer something great and does not change for 7 years
 
Any such languages in your mind?
 
user1357851
C
 
user1357851
but it can use some improvemtns, lol
 
@Telkitty Which also means outdated
 
A lot can happen in 7 years, let alone 3.
 
1:15 AM
C is one of the worst languages now.
 
user1357851
yes, life is more than just learning new languages
 
Embedded mostly, I hear.
Worst in terms of productivity?
 
user1357851
language is a tool
 
user1357851
not a goal
 
In terms of everything
 
user1357851
1:16 AM
unless a tool is so bad, it is not workable, it does not need to be improved every day
 
That narrows it down :D
Well, from what I have seen, technology moves fast.
 
If language is a tool, C is like a piece of rock
 
user1357851
have you seen stone houses? They are amazing (and lasts) :p
 
If you want to smash random things, it is perfect
Yeah, they are built using proper tools
 
What would you deem a good tool, and for what purposes?
 
1:19 AM
Depends on various factors
 
And C sucks by all of the factors?
 
@Pawnguy7 Something that can be used to efficiently solve a problem.
It's all about that efficiency part.
 
Efficient in terms of speed or in terms of ease of use?
 
Speed is a problem
I mean, the goal
 
1:23 AM
You are saying, C is SLOWER than another language?
 
user142019
Depends on the code and the language implementation you fool.
 
Is SO down?
 
user142019
It's not a language property.
 
user142019
Idiomatic C++ code can be faster than idiomatic C code on roughly the same implementations.
 
@Jueecy Does not seem to be.
 
1:25 AM
@Pawnguy7, when I try to load the front page it says that it cannot reach the server.
 
@Telkitty Duck's here again.
 
@Jueecy Not sure, works for me. Normally when chrome gives me "cannot find server", I have no connection.
 
user1357851
@BartekBanachewicz depends, if something is used everyday 1000 time, then speed is important, not something that gets used once a month for like 2 years
 
user1357851
and only takes 10 mins to run anyways
 
Hei lads, Does all of you load SO properly?
 
user1357851
1:28 AM
 
@Telkitty Aw. How cute.
@Jueecy Yes. No probs.
 
Why can't I load SO? :(
 
@Jueecy DNS problem?
 
@MarkGarcia, only for one website?
 
@Jueecy Screenie of error?
 
1:39 AM
@MarkGarcia, It would be in italian but it's the common: Safari can't load the page "http://stackoverflow.com" because the server is not responding.
 
@Jueecy I think we're connecting to the same servers. That couldn't be a server-specific problem (at least, not in me). Consider asking on meta?
 
SFML stopped working dynamically... what did I screw up this time? :(
 
@MarkGarcia, is it meta.stackoverflow.com?
 
@Jueecy Yes. And be sure to put all relevant infos in your question.
@Pawnguy7 Linking problem?
 
1:42 AM
@MarkGarcia, can't load it either
 
Yes. A different one than before, oddly.
 
@Jueecy Try viewing SO or meta.SO on proxy.
 
Now I am getting "Error 2 error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol "_declspec(dllimport) public: virtual __thiscall sf::Window::~Window(void)" (__imp??1Window@sf@@UAE@XZ)"
The delclspec(dllimport) part is new. I have seen that somewhere....
 
@Pawnguy7 IIRC, there's a ~SFML_STATIC macro that you must define for static builds or undefine for dynamic builds.
Try that.
 
@MarkGarcia, let me read what a proxy is and I'll be right back
 
1:45 AM
@MarkGarcia en.sfml-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=9537.0 seems to say this, but SFML_STATIC is not defined.
 
@Jueecy Just do this: google.com.ph/…
 
@Pawnguy7 You're still stuck on this?
Hasn't it been like a week at this point?
 
user1357851
I wonder whether there is any open source code for searching the best proxy servers to suit my need
 
@Pawnguy7 #undef SFML_STATIC. Try it.
 
@MarkGarcia, yeah but I don't know how to connect to a proxy
 
1:46 AM
Well, I had it working... then I tried testing static... and now dynamic stopped working too. Sigh.
 
@Jueecy You just need to type the url into their url textbox thingies.
@Pawnguy7 Have you tried rebuilding the library?
 
I am thinking of doing that again, actually. Working static would be nice.
 
@MarkGarcia, right.
@MarkGarcia, yup, I can surf.
 
Well, I love SmartGit/Hg. Hate it for not having automatic updates. Have to download the whole f**king installer for updates.
@Jueecy Seems like an ISP or DNS problem indeed.
 
Ah. Found it, sort of.
 
1:48 AM
@MarkGarcia, anything I can do?
 
@Jueecy Call your ISP's support (if you can stand the wait).
 
@MarkGarcia, can't right now. I'll just pray for it to fix itself like I usually do. Dear Lord...
 
@Jueecy Well, it's up to you. I wonder, how come you can seamlessly connect to chat.SO?
 
@MarkGarcia, that's the weirdest thing indeed.
@MarkGarciam, can't connect to *.stackexchange.com either.
 
@Jueecy I think chat runs on a different server.
 
2:02 AM
"Looks like their stack has finally...overflowed."
Better watch a Lost ep and try again later
@MarkGarcia, could it change anything if I reboot my router?
 
user142019
 
user142019
^ It workz. :D
 
@Zoidberg OGL?
 
@Jueecy Just try it. See if it works.
 
user142019
OpenGL yes.
 
2:09 AM
Ahah. Got SFML working dynamically again.
Apparently, it works with @BartekBanachewicz 's DLLS, but not the others... oh well.
 
@Zoidberg, what do you use to create the OGL context?
 
user142019
GLFW
 
@Jueecy glfw.org
Very simple to use.
 
> It is easy to integrate into existing applications and does not lay claim to the main loop.
I CLAIM THIS MAIN LOOP FOR DEUSTCHLAND.
 
What does claim the main loop?
 
2:13 AM
Yeah I did some OGL too and I tried different solutions: SDL, SFML, GLUT, FreeGLUT and GLFW. GLFW is the one I liked most. I love how they mimic the OpenGL coding styles.
 
Damn markup.
 
Ok let's reboot this shit up
 
Yeah OpenGL style of API isn't very good
 
@CatPlusPlus Much less for their C++ wrappers.
 
Why can't I have good things :(
 
user1182183
2:24 AM
@BartekBanachewicz you didn't mention ZMQ has no UDP support..... why did you recommend it for a multiplayer mod?
 
@CatPlusPlus, why not?
 
A lot of hidden state and awkward pseudo-OO style based upon it
Also in OpenGL itself errors are handled atrociously
@GamErix Do you even know why you want UDP
 
user1182183
@CatPlusPlus yes, I need packets sent NOW to my server, not stack them up until player has enough data to send.
 
Right
 
Rubs face.
When I use Left-Handed Matrices,
D3D behaves perfectly.
When I use right-handed matrices, D3D flips the fuck out.
THe best part is,
I'm using DirectXMath::XMMatrix*RH .
I'm only using their RH versions of functions.
... And I'm still in the wrong.
 
2:33 AM
 
@Jueecy lol. Your wasting packets man!
 
Why is C++ type inference so fucking primitive argh
Fuck this I'll write it in C#
 
user1357851
what do you mean
 
user1357851
strong type is there for a reason
 
user1357851
so you won't introduce hard to find bugs
 
2:36 AM
Strong typing doesn't mean spelling out types for the compiler
 
Or static typing for that matter
 
user1357851
types are different for a reason
 
What the fuck are you talking about
 
user1357851
2:37 AM
thus you need explicit cast
 
user1357851
what are you trying to converting
 
What
Type inference refers to the automatic deduction of the type of an expression in a programming language. If some, but not all, type annotations are already present it is referred to as type reconstruction. The opposite operation of type inference is called type erasure. It is a feature present in some strongly statically typed languages. It is often characteristic of, but not limited to, functional programming languages in general. Some languages that include type inference are ML, OCaml, Haskell, Scala, D, Clean, Opa and Go. It has lately been added (to some extent) to Visual Basic (star...
 
user1357851
@CatPlusPlus and?
 
Is there a reliable place I can look for Singleton free game engine architectures? (So it's easier to integrate in an outside tool)
 
And what
 
user1357851
2:41 AM
automated type inference slow things down
 
@Telkitty, dats da truth
 
What
Slows what
What
No, you know what, I'm too tired for this discussion
 
See you tommorow.
 
Jesus
Shift-selecting doesn't work in VS editor
 
Really?
AAAAAAARHGAHDAHDAWDHWADJ
I quit.
 
2:55 AM
So do I.
 
Lets all jump off a bridge, lemming style
 
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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