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11:00 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I just thought that all caps will be more natural to OGL developers
 
@BartekBanachewicz The point about segregating macros is that a macro can clash with everything.
@BartekBanachewicz Right, OGL has "enums" as ALL_CAPS because they are macros :P
 
okey, okey, I get it
 
@BartekBanachewicz Of course it can. The CPP is a text processor, it doesn't care about your strongly typed enums.
 
But yeah, some people make enumerators ALL_CAPS anyway. (even Java got that FFS!)
 
user142019
Meh all caps.
 
11:02 PM
0
Q: Graphs ((Toplogical ordering))

Ahmed AlkabaryProve the following statement Let G = (V,E) be a graph with infinetly many vertices ,Prove the following statement If G has no topological ordering , then G has a cyle. I am thinking about proving the contrapostive statement by induction ? am i on the right track ?

That's a C++ question?
 
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel To expand, the enumerators can't clash with other things, but other things can clash with them
 
@Zoidberg You mean "all lowercase with spaces"?
 
user142019
No?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Reminds of one of my profs. He wandered around the lab when we were coding, and occasionnally yelled "LES CONSTANTES EN MAJUSCULES" whenever he spotted non-uppercased constants.
6
 
Non-autological casing convention names are silly.
@Magtheridon96 I guess he wants people to write code for him in C++. Sigh.
 
11:05 PM
anyway
I am only accepting strongly typed enums in my engine classes from now on
I wanted them to be standalone
but fuck, seriously, that thing really needs fixing
so one header with enums won't hurt
 
What are you working on Bartek?
 
game / game engine
 
@BartekBanachewicz I like snake case, but nobody else seems to
 
@MooingDuck I don't. Robot does.
 
Ooh
What have you finished so far?
 
11:07 PM
Anyway, gotta go.
 
Look, the blacks are back.
 
wait, that was a bad screenshot
 
^ As a bonus here's a picture of Rainbow Dash not giving a shit.
 
(Yeah, I'm starbaiting now)
 
11:08 PM
(Also, yeah, I know it won't work)
 
We have a word for blacks in my country
 
uh
in old OpenGL you could just use GL_BLEND
 
Burnt Toast ;_;!
 
here, fuck you.
derp
 
@BartekBanachewicz That was finicky as heck though.
 
11:09 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes at least it worked
anyways, yeah, I will get rid of them soon
 
Ooh, a voxel based engine
 
but it isn't exactly top priority atm
@Magtheridon96 actually, only the game is voxel based
it's a minecraft clone
 
I should be rethinking my game engine model
 
I wonder if when OGL 5 comes out, I will have to throw my engine away
 
Currently, my engine only works for Sidescrollers
but other than that, nothing is hardcoded, so I guess that's /okay/
 
11:12 PM
do you use Lua?
if not, then meh.
 
You convinced me to skip making my own language.
 
well then.
 
and use Lua for the actual games instead.
so the engine's going to be in C++, and game specific shit will be in Lua
 
I have to finish that goddamn Lua api
 
Does Lua have decent performance?
 
11:13 PM
it's hard :/
 
because /that's/ what I want
 
@BartekBanachewicz Don't worry, the old (i.e. current) API isn't going away any time soon.
 
@Magtheridon96 yeah, with JIT it's damn fast.
@R.MartinhoFernandes 5 is going to be more OO from what I heard
 
@BartekBanachewicz That is not relevant to what I said :P
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yay :3
 
11:14 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, I wouldn't be so sure
 
Ugh. I'll have to code a timer.
 
Boost.Timer
or whatever it's called
don't reinvent the wheel.
 
@BartekBanachewicz You really think they would kill the API that has been used for decades?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes.
 
I don't use Boost :o
 
11:15 PM
That would be a completely idiotic move.
 
@BartekBanachewicz "Dont reinvent the wheel, use wheels" ftfy :P
 
@Magtheridon96 then start using it
@R.MartinhoFernandes from what I've heard, making it more OO was the point that NVidia and others agree on totally
 
They may stop adding new stuff to it, but it won't go away.
 
so I am actually expecting pretty radical changes
 
What is the resolution of Boost.Timer?
 
11:16 PM
@BartekBanachewicz That in no way implies that the old API dies.
 
that's what my colleagues said at least.
@R.MartinhoFernandes it can become deprecated.
 
Which means nothing.
 
@Magtheridon96 system-dependent
 
If it's 100 microseconds, Boost will be my next waifu
Oh God
 
@Magtheridon96 there is no such thing as Boost. Boost is a collection of libraries, not a library
 
11:17 PM
I know
 
"There is no such thing as Boost. Boost is a thing"
3
 
Look what happened to the deprecated fixed function pipeline: it still works on the newest hardware and newest drivers everywhere.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes which means that I would have to write a lot of things again in order to stay actual
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes In OpenGL any more, it can mean a fair amount. Immediate mode was deprecated in 3.x and is basically gone in 4.x (and it's the API that was really in use for decades).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes works terribly
 
11:19 PM
They don't want new applications to use the old features, but they don't want old applications to stop working either.
 
Ultimately, it's semi-true though -- no matter what the spec says, it's unlikely the vendors will really drop support any time soon. Then again, at least of the PC vendors, there's a fair amount that's only ever been decently supported by nVidia.
 
Currently you're basically given the choice between 3.0- and 3.1+. I would not be surprised if you get the same deal for 5.0- and 5.1+ or something.
 
OpenGL 5.0 Core Core Profile
 
Corer Profile.
 
If anything drastically changing the API will only make it even harder to use
Because more involved context creation and loaders and shit
Besides current API is already sortof OO just in a very awkward way
 
11:22 PM
well
it is going to be even more OO
It makes encapsulation a lot easier actually.
 
@CatPlusPlus Kinda like the way the WinAPI is.
 
Shader objects, for example
 
WinAPI is less awkward
 
Except for the this pointers BindX, that is.
 
Encapsulation of what and where
 
11:24 PM
must... repcap for the 3rd time... today... :P
 
You already get opaque handles to all objects
 
You have a wrong idea of what encapsulation means.
GLuint shader; is pretty encapsulated.
 
I'd really just remove binding crap from the API and wired in ARB_debug as a mandatory thing
 
@CatPlusPlus I think that's in core in 4.3.
 
void* for offsets is much worse than this whole "is it OO or not" debate
 
11:26 PM
lol, yeah.
 
KHR_DEBUG is core in 4.3 IIRC
 
I had been intending to learn irrlicht, but people in this room keep talking about ogre, so I started wondering if I should switch. But I just noticed that opengl.org/wiki/Getting_Started links to ogre, so that's a big push. People here think I should learn ogre rather than irrlict?
 
@CatPlusPlus and that's what I am fixing right now.
@MooingDuck neither
 
Both suck terribly
 
11:27 PM
inb4 write your own.
 
@BartekBanachewicz and I should use...?
 
now, seriously
 
Irrlicht is better than Ogre
 
@MooingDuck BartekTech's Engine.
 
OpenGL wiki is not really authoritative
 
11:27 PM
@MooingDuck what is the goal?
 
@CatPlusPlus neither are you guys
 
> People here think I should learn ogre rather than irrlict?
Well I say Irrlicht is better
 
@BartekBanachewicz I want to make 3d stuff, and work my way down to learning opengl
 
(I'd use Unity or UDK anyway)
You'll never see OpenGL with an engine
 
In CRTP, there is no trick to get the base to be a friend of the derived without doing it explicitly, is there?
 
11:28 PM
@MooingDuck if you want to make 3D stuffs, start with a triangle in OpenGL
 
That's sort of the point
 
@BartekBanachewicz no
 
@MooingDuck why?
Why not?
it's the fastest way to learn OGL
you won't learn OpenGL by using engines
 
If you want to learn OpenGL, forget about making games and engines
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't want to learn open gl, I want to learn 3d.
 
11:29 PM
If you want to make games, forget about OpenGL
 
well, you'd learn using my Engine, because it's a very thin abstraction
 
Called it.
 
@MooingDuck OpenGL is a nice way to learn 3D
 
@BartekBanachewicz too buggy
 
You already know 3D
 
11:30 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not going to debate with you about this
 
@MooingDuck That's why I am not recommending it
 
Unless you've been living literally under a rock
In a world of Flatland
 
Ell
@mooingduck I tried irrlicht And ogre3d and as a noob found ogre easier, but like I said I'm a noon. And ogre is full of singletons and managers
 
@MooingDuck Well then I don't really see the point
 
I'm a midnight!
 
11:30 PM
"Learn 3d"
 
Ell
Also imho ogre is a behemoth library
 
whatever the fuck is 3D
 
@Ell So, the name is fitting? ;)
 
Ogre is an engine
 
11:31 PM
@BartekBanachewicz "what is a shader?" "what is the graphics pipeline?" "how do they interact?"
 
You can make 3D apps using engines or low-level APIs
 
Ell
Heh yes
 
@MooingDuck That's OpenGL not 3D
 
@MooingDuck That is exactly OpenGL level
 
Well, or DirectX
 
11:31 PM
yea
 
It's pretty irrelevant to 3D math itself
 
but he mentioned GL beforehand
so, if you want to learn OpenGL, just learn OpenGL
 
Because that's mostly just learning how projection works
And coordinate spaces
 
Dx is very similar in concepts, but there are differences
 
"DX is very similar, but different"
 
11:33 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I mentioned it because you did. My first goal is to learn to make 3d games. My second goal is to learn general 3d graphics concepts which would ease the learning of opengl or directx or whatever else.
 
(I'm sorry, I just woke up and I'm easily amused)
 
@MooingDuck learning engines won't help you in learning OpenGL or DX at all
and as Cat said
 
I remember learning OpenGL for 2 days once.
I forgot everything I learned.
 
4 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
If you want to learn OpenGL, forget about making games and engines
 
@BartekBanachewicz fine, then forget the second goal. I want to quickly and easily make 3d games
 
11:33 PM
4 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
If you want to make games, forget about OpenGL
 
And here I am, making a 2D game as a result.
 
@MooingDuck Unity or UDK or CryEngine or whatever
 
use UDK or Unity or whatnot
 
@BartekBanachewicz that's what I've been telling you!
@CatPlusPlus k
 
lol. A friend of mine tells me something quite similar
He's like, if you want to make a game engine, forget about making games
 
11:35 PM
Unity might be the cheapest option if you ever want to go commercial with what you're doing
 
UDK is free
 
UDK has royalties
 
if you're reasonably small, that is
 
Unity has a kind of awkward architecture that takes some time getting used to
 
UDK has the best tools on the planet
and great technology
and is field-proven
 
11:36 PM
Mar 13 at 18:15, by R. Martinho Fernandes
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Where we steal your side of the argument and leave you arguing for something you don't agree with. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [no-helpdesk]
I'm bad at debates :(
 
We're in the age where you can just try all the engines out for yourself
 
@MooingDuck Both Irrlicht and Ogre as very old. Ogre has received a recent shot to the arm, but I don't know what's going on with Irrlicht.
 
Most proven engines are old
 
I took a class on opengl, but it was almost entirely about projection matrixes and was complicated :( I wrote a program with a lowpoly 3d model sliding around and got like 4 fps, so obviously I had something wrong.
 
11:37 PM
@MooingDuck hehe
 
Evolved in years but still old as fuck
@MooingDuck Because that's what 3D is
Projection matrices
 
@MooingDuck woot
 
@MooingDuck yea that's how you roll in 3D world
 
3D is hard.
And an asshole.
 
You don't have to remember them or anything though
 
11:38 PM
All my 2D stuff works flawlessly.
3D?
 
glm::projection
 
Shit fucks up everywhere.
 
3d isn't essentially much harder
just that winding order got me today
 
Depends on the complexity and quality of the implementation
 
@MooingDuck That was pretty much the first month of the CG class I took. Then it was a large chunk of the exam. Pretty much the reason so many people fail that class. Well, that and the tight schedule on the practical project, which usually consists of making some kind of game. That's one semester.
 
11:40 PM
With Unity or whatnot you won't really have to deal with projection matrices at all
 
Like, handling collision with navigation meshes
or handling a BSP to know what triangles you should be rendering
 
@Magtheridon96 that's totally different thing alltogether
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wish people would realize that making a game from the ground up takes a long while, and just gave a 2 year project and used it as a teaching tool, rather than a single semester class.
 
Xeo
Question: Is there a way to fast-forward on blip.tv?
 
3D Pong
@Xeo Clicking on the seekbar doesn't work?
 
11:42 PM
Game programming forces you to address a crapload of stuff and lets you get acquainted with a lot of practical techniques.
 
@ThePhD Most bright people I knew failed miserably the first time and passed with flying colours the following year (with grades 17-20 out of 20). (that includes me, btw)
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Always hops back to the beginning.
 
@Xeo Could be deliberate on their part?
 
Xeo
Maybe it would work if the video was buffered until where I want to jump..
 
Yeah wait for buffering
Or just download it, I think blip has that
 
11:43 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes See? I don't know why they don't just make it a year long and save the whole double-take nonsense.
 
Xeo
1:15h in... ugh
 
Building a game up for a whole year would be not only a fun experience, but a really good learning one. ._.
 
I failed CG class too :v:
 
@CatPlusPlus Passed mine!
Just.... barely.
 
And passed by a stroke of luck on the second time
 
11:43 PM
Less focus on games,
 
I got A in CG.
 
It was bullshit exam like any else
 
@ThePhD To be honest, I don't think it works that bad. All those people learned a lot of things in that process. And not only about CG.
 
more focus on RAYTRACE HARDCORE RAYTRACE LIGHT VIEW PROJECTION MATRIX OPS TRANSFORMS.
 
"Memorise everything, including matrices"
 
11:44 PM
And some Signal Processing.
 
How many of you have completed game projects before?
 
@Magtheridon96 thrice, so far.
And a bunch of other tiny projects, but not really game-worthy.
 
I don't complete projects as a principle
 
@Magtheridon96 I have! oh you mean with graphics and not text?
 
@MooingDuck I guess.
 
11:45 PM
Presentation is not what makes a game
 
Marketing is everything
 
I have a bunch of really low quality stuff (need content first :P)
 
Look at Terraria for example.
 
@ThePhD We all learned lot about planning and team work and time management and writing maintainable code (yes, it's a throwaway project, but when you have four or five people working for four months on the same codebase maintainability already matters).
 
The dude marketted it as the 2D Minecraft
and it has over a million sales so far
 
11:46 PM
"Our clone is less cloney than other clones!"
 
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
Woah, I can't work with other people on the same code
 
@Magtheridon96 zomg.
 
Marketing is one of the reasons I'm not really interested in finishing anything
 
I would love to work with other people on code.
 
11:47 PM
@Magtheridon96 That kinda makes you a terrible programmer. You should work on that.
 
But I think I'd drive my entire team batshit crazy.
 
I would love too as well, but I know we'd face a ton of problems
 
user142019
@Magtheridon96 use version control like any sane programmer.
 
"WHAT ARE YOU PROGRAMMING HERE?!"
 
@ThePhD reinventing shit isn't very popular
 
11:47 PM
"JESUS CHRIST YOU'RE TERRIBLE DERPSTORM."
etc. etc.
 
Zoidberg chimes in with a golden advice as usual
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's just that people have different tastes and conventions
 
@Magtheridon96 But yeah, that's one reason I think that class isn't that bad even if most people fail at the first time: those that aren't complete dumbasses learn a lot about working effectively as a team (from mistakes, but that's still learning).
 
user142019
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
@Magtheridon96 and?
 
11:49 PM
@Magtheridon96 As most things in life, you have to find a common ground.
 
I mean, I see people camelCasing, snake_casing, and even people who add random underscores everywhere
 
If you can't work in a team, you suck
Stop caring about irrelevant bullshit maybe
 
@Magtheridon96 team has to pick one
 
user142019
@Magtheridon96 write a guide that all parties must follow.
 
so unless I can agree with whomever I'm working with on one convention, I can't work with him
Yes, that would work
 
11:49 PM
Roll a goddamn dice
It doesn't matter
 
but the other person would argue for what THEY think is good convention
 
IT DOESN'T MATTER
 
and we'd likely never reach an agreement
 
If they argue they're just as bad at this as you
 
user142019
Pick any coding style as long as it's not the GNU coding style.
 
user142019
11:50 PM
Then it's fine and nobody should complain and if they do, buy a gun.
 
I never even discussed coding conventions with my coworkers
It's just whoever wrote something first, follow that
It's that simple
 
@Magtheridon96 Whoever rolls highest on die roll gets to pick. Then you can start tackling important issues.
 
@Magtheridon96 you are paying too much attention to this
 
user142019
11:51 PM
What if both roll the same?
 
It's like spending 2 years picking a name for a project
 
blarfugh
You're right.
 
Irrelevant who gives a fuck just name it whatever and move on
 
Just pick random code names and work with that.
 
I plan to program on my own in either case because I don't see myself working with people.
'people'
 
11:52 PM
...
 
You're extremely limited working on your own
 
I am the living proof
Too much code, too little man-hours
you can do really very simple little things by yourself
And actually I am using Lounge as my "team"
I can't imagine coding "isolated" now
 
To be honest,
the closest thing I have that can be considered as a team,
is this guy I know from this forum who does quite a lot of openGL faggotry
 
@Zoidberg They get to argue. We were all RPGers so we had d100s on hand. We could handle a 0.01% chance of argument.
 
11:55 PM
@Magtheridon96 I was so tempted to say "is a <insert random object here>" while you were typing :P
 
and he's too obsessed with very, very low level things
 
@Magtheridon96 you recruit team leads from 4chan?
 
@sehe .
 
We have just the person for you
 
11:56 PM
I wonder who would that be
 
I can't English
 
He wanted to write his own operating system at one point and I was like "No. Use Linux. Good people did not spend years writing 15 million lines of code just so you can go make your own OS you little shit"
 
argfgghgdhsfsfg
 
> Only std::futures returned from std::async behave this way, so I had been under the impression that they were special. But now I believe otherwise. I now believe that all futures must behave this way, not just those returned by std::async.
 
sick :(
 
11:56 PM
OSdev can be interesting if you're into low-level things
Just don't be deluded it'll ever be useful
 
Woah, what happened to Scott...
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wait, what
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wat
 
@Magtheridon96 Hmm...."Linus wanted to write his own operating system at one point and I was like "No. Use Unix. Good people did not spend years writing 15 million lines of code just so you can go make your own OS you little shit"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes First Stroustrup with static if, now Meyers with future? WTF is going on?
 
11:59 PM
@Griwes They read too many std:: proposals and have gone off the deep end.
There's little we can do for them. =[
 
@Magtheridon96 Hrm, but they spent years writing 15 million lines of code just to make yet another shitty OS.
 
@Magtheridon96 Step 2: "Ken wanted to write his own operating system at one point and I was like "No. Use MULTICS. Good people did not spend years writing 15 million lines of code just so you can go make your own OS you little shit"
 

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