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03:00
I.e. support for a certain political idea can be characterized as 'a mile wide and an inch deep'. It's easy to go tick a box in a voting booth, but a very, very small percentage of people who tick a box would actually, say, contribute money or labor toward 'solving' an 'issue'
@TinyGiant Saying "crap" seems to be considered as offensive or rude :/
user4639281
Oh wait, yeah, I'm not supposed to say that.
@πάνταῥεῖ only towards someone who invested work into it.
To me godaddy was a horrible distraction. Dozens of other c# or whatever things I couldn't rely on @Yvette getting involved with. In short, it caused me to not even care about Page1 mod anymore
@bwoebi Been there and beyond :/
03:02
@Drew This is valid.
user3956566
@Drew yep I haven't been able to cast a delete vote on any other tag since it started
user4639281
@undo Yeah, probably overreacting to the criticism, and lack of effort from other members of the community, and yeah....
There is a certain value to having something focused for folks to do, though. People are weird; I know that for myself there's a certain draw to having a largish task to jump into for a couple days.
[godaddy] is/was... just kinda huge.
That was quick :)
I'm about to go to bed, don't need to get that started again
user4639281
03:04
Let's just refrain from referencing body parts please
this is a generally good idea. Not a rule, but a good idea :)
@undo There are better things to do with your time … like writing a regex for matching a binary number addition…
How far can we take on free speech here?
user4639281
Not very far
@πάνταῥεῖ Don't make me pull out the xkcd :)
03:06
Damn it @undo
@bwoebi Ack, now I'm gonna have nightmares about that.
@πάνταῥεῖ It depends on who's present here and what scale you're using
One box!
user4639281
@JamesENL No one-boxing in here
I APPROVE THE ONEBOX
if that's a thing I can do
03:06
@undo regex101.com/r/yD1kL7/17 … just for reference :-D
That's a thing?
I'm just a slighly stoopid idiot, ya know. Call me Bobby Tables.
@πάνταῥεῖ Sleep well, Bobby Tables. [Are you drunk or always that insane?]
user4639281
@JamesENL #11 and #12
TIL 'sanction' means something different than I thought it meant. or maybe it doesn't. Dictionaries are hard.
Darnit, I've been confusing people for a long time
user4639281
yes it does
@bwoebi Always insane of course
@TinyGiant my mistake
@undo you mean as give permission or penalize?
03:08
@πάνταῥεῖ Okay, you're high. I see. Not much better than drunk…
user4639281
@bwoebi Wait... does this thing actually check correctness?
@bwoebi Whoever elsw would even consider to participate at this site?? Ehhh
@undo Sure. That's the point of it…?
I just assumed you were checking for a binary-addition-looking thing.
Never seen someone actually do that entirely in regex. This just made my day.
03:10
I mean… everyone can write [01]+\s*\+\s*[01]+\s*=\s*[01]+ …
user4639281
now you just have to make it parse html
@TinyGiant Hey that's quite looking like one of my selfies published at the interwebz
user4639281
@πάνταῥεῖ lol
@TinyGiant I … uh … don't want to read what horrible things the HTML spec allows…
user4639281
lol
03:12
I don't hang out here much but I'd like to throw my hat in the ring on the Burnination issue. It feels like whenever I see a burnination request of a major tag, there's so much work to do because there's also the expectation that you edit the question to fix other issues with the post which might fall outside of the expertise of the burninator. To be honest it feels like what burnination is crying out for is a review queue like format.
user4639281
@πάνταῥεῖ Do you look like this now?
^We're not a ring, no no no
user3956566
@JamesENL totally agree
user4639281
@JamesENL I made one
@TinyGiant I'm shaved
user4639281
03:14
@πάνταῥεῖ Hey!!!! no referencing body parts!!!!
@Yvette I wish you luck meta.stackoverflow.com/q/332660
Rough process: Tag gets a burnination request on meta, request is approved through community approval. Add tag to burnination queue, tag gets auto-removed in queue, post can be edited, close voted, or delete voted through the queue.
@TinyGiant Did I tell you where I'm shaved actually?
user3956566
@Drew shog asked me to post it
03:14
Wait, the meta 404 page is a keyboard waffle machine?
user4639281
@πάνταῥεῖ Hair is technically a body part
@Yvette I know. I upvoted
@Yvette 404?
@TinyGiant Awwww
user4639281
@AndrewL. I have a waffle keyboard, what's your point?
03:15
It's beautiful. Care to share?
user3956566
@JamesENL the burnination comment
@JamesENL one needs 10k I assume
@AndrewL. No no no no
? ? ? ?
user4639281
@AndrewL. no
03:16
Aww :(
user4639281
lol
I would say that the queue would have to be opt-in, people can't just jump straight into the queue, they have to walk through the burnination process and indicate that they understand how burnination works. Because I can just see people robo-reviewing and taking out massive swaths of questions.
@TinyGiant I can't thank you enough...
user4639281
03:18
@JamesENL Like they already do?
@TinyGiant Exactly
close voting and those that burnitiate (I liked that spelling) is boring and it doesn't pay that swell. I see no reason for a queue.
user4639281
@JamesENL But that would require that users actually read stuff
But yeah, proper burnination for the purposes of quality control, needs to be better supported by SE because right now, it's a hodgepodge of random people doing random things, clogging the homepage. Oh and posts edited through the queue are not bumped to the front page.
@AndrewL. You bake one your own :)
03:20
Telling me to bake is basically asking me to set the kitchen on fire.
So... Part of the problem here is that y'all do way too much work on these. A queue where folks are still doing this stuff manually doesn't fix that.
user4639281
No it doesn't
user4639281
But, we spend too much time closing a deleting stuff, that is the problem
user4639281
Editing and triaging posts still requires people
@Shog9 Agreed
03:22
For example: you don't need to close some questions at -1 no one's ever seen.
user4639281
But once we triage questions into a "this is crap and should be disposed of" pile, and edit everything else into shape, an automated process can do the closing and deleting
user4639281
@Shog9 Yes, that makes sense
@Shog9 no, it doesn't, but if it's easier to fix burninated posts, then more people would be willing to lend a hand
user3956566
@Shog9 to much work, it's exhausting and causes burn out. Plus I think there's a lot of stuff that while being off topic now should stay on the site
user4639281
That would be something that could be programmed into said queue
user3956566
03:23
@Shog9 yep or have one close vote?
user4639281
like, only show me posts with > x votes and > y view unless post is < z days old
Realistically, you only need to do two things: downvote posts that are crap but have no votes, and fix posts that are borderline
user3956566
@Shog9 we're talking about a couple of thousand questions
@Shog9 Is the roomba a myth or not? Disclose please
user4639281
@Shog9 So you're talking about a procedural change instead of a system change?
03:24
only to be followed up by the next ridiculous burn request on meta
@πάνταῥεῖ Why should it be a myth?
user3956566
@Drew exactly
@bwoebi It was argued so earlier
@πάνταῥεῖ Uh … well… obviously… the staff is each day marking a bunch of questions manually for deletion to be triggered at 3:00 UTC…
03:25
If the point of a burnination is to remove a bad tag from a pile of questions, having all those questions in one place ready for processing, would be exceedingly helpful.
it fired off 26 minutes ago. Delivering sacrifices to its alter is a part of our job
user3956566
@JamesENL it's easy to have them in the one place
user3956566
sort by tag in questions and the review queue, plus @TinyGiant has a magic review script
and allow the load to be spread among willing people. If burnination burn-out is a problem, that's your solution. Also if system changes are being considered it'd allow for things like edits to those posts not bumping them to the front page.
user4639281
@JamesENL that would be a system change, not a procedural change
03:27
@Yvette Sure, but what it doesn't allow for is for the same question to only be reviewed once by one person who knows what they are doing
The front page on so is rarely a problem
user3956566
@JamesENL look at this meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/333706/… the burn request is one of the most upvoted posts. And yet the tag is still there
user4639281
@Shog9 Tell that to the naysayers
@Yvette no. See, that's what I'm getting at here: you don't need to look at every question in the tag.
As you said earlier, then tag locking/blacklisting also needs to be a thing
user3956566
03:29
@JamesENL we had a chat room with batches to coordinate this chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/120759/godaddy-burnination ;) (I wish I always had an answer to everything)
@TinyGiant I'm always trying to find obvious dupes.
Unless you're disambiguating - retagging one tag to two or some such. Those are a pain.
user3956566
@Shog9 so which ones? the low votes?
user4639281
@Shog9 I'm still having a hard time understanding what you're suggesting here. Are you or are you not hinting at a system change?
user3956566
that's why I'm asking to freeze the tag and then just delete out the crap
user3956566
03:29
and keep the tag on the better posts
@Yvette yeah - low votes for stuff you want to save, no votes for stuff that needs to go.
^ agree
@Shog9 People try to hide under tags, that's a pain yes.
user4639281
Any godaddy post that is on-topic for the site can exist without the godaddy tag
@TinyGiant folks are lamenting the wasted time and effort. I'm saying... Stop wasting time and effort. Don't treat what should essentially be a sanity check as a house-cleaning.
One the sanity checking is done, it takes a mod or me maybe half an hour at worst to just delete everything that needs to go, and then about 30 seconds for me to get rid of the tag completely.
user3956566
03:32
I think we should freeze a tag when it's agreed to burn. Then we can focus on low qual and leave the rest. As re-tagging and trying to work out what's still ontopic is difficult. As if it is relevant to the tag, it may be off topic and high voted and useful
user3956566
But what about making sense of posts without the tag?
The point of the process was supposed to be getting folks involved in the sanity check, not turning them into machines.
user4639281
waffles
user3956566
the problem is, many of the "better' quality posts need to tag
user3956566
03:34
well are better with the tag
@Shog9 I turned into a bot already it seems
user4639281
user3956566
I think there is going to be an ongoing issue with what is on topic on SO. It's evolving and we need to rethink the process of how we handle that scope change
user3956566
@TinyGiant doesn't always apply
user4639281
Just because a question has to do with godaddy does not mean that it needs a godaddy tag
user4639281
03:35
Not every question that contains HTML needs the HTML tag
user3956566
often it is specific to godaddy. That's the whole point I'm making
user4639281
So what?
user3956566
you cannot compare html tag to godaddy
user4639281
It only happens on godaddy, that you know of
@Yvette Along with having documentation now, its even harder.
user3956566
03:36
because it's kinda useless without the tag if it doesn't apply to other hosting
user4639281
I can probably make it happen on my server as well if I make the configuration really stupid
@TinyGiant I say let the noobs that come here have their frozen tag. They arent going to and we aren't training them to do so
user3956566
I don't want to argue hosting and the merits of godaddy
user4639281
The point is that if it can happen on godaddy, then it can happen elsewhere
user3956566
yes I know
user4639281
03:37
So if it can happen elsewhere, then it really isn't specific to godaddy
user3956566
that is why I'm suggesting freezing tags. That's the whole point I'm trying to make
user4639281
It's just that the person asking the question happens to be using godaddy
user4639281
Which means nothing in relation to tags
user3956566
@TinyGiant That's the whole point I've been making all along
@Yvette Lets freeze :)
user4639281
03:38
Then why would a question that can exist without the tag, require the tag?
user3956566
@TinyGiant well if it's specific to godaddy, I say leave the tag
user4639281
The point is that the tag itself is unnecessary, and no question requires the tag
user3956566
That's the whole point of my meta post lol
user4639281
But nothing is specific to godaddy
@πάνταῥεῖ Do you actually have anything useful to contribute here?
Seriously
user3956566
03:38
of course things are specific to godaddy
Tiny don't get all Perry Mason on us :p
@TinyGiant Yup, tagging is much overrated actually ...
noobs show up. Know squat. They get their little frozen thing
user4639281
The problem is being faced on godaddy, that does not mean that the problem cannot be faced anywhere else, as such it is not specific to godaddy
user4639281
Empty tags can be blacklisted
user4639281
03:39
A tag can be frozen, and have no questions in it
@JamesENL Years of experience. What do you like to hear specifically?
A tag can be frozen and 900 questions in it. I suggest one such tag be
user3956566
@TinyGiant I understand that. BUT there are questions that are specific to godaddy. This argument is not helping
user4639281
But there aren't though
we agree to disagree
who has a music playlist
user4639281
03:41
If it turns out to be a server configuration issue, then by all rights that same configuration could be employed on another server
user3956566
sigh No wonder the site is so hard to manage
user4639281
The only thing I can think of is if it is something about godaddy that has nothing to do with programming, in which case it is off-topic
@Yvette Why does the phrase herding cats come to mind
@Drew What about giving it a strikethrough?
user3956566
stackoverflow.com/questions/22477933/… this comes to mind, as it could've been left on the site @Shog9
user4639281
03:42
I see no point in leaving broken windows around
then go fix those windows tiny. We are fried out and can't do this
user4639281
@Yvette server configuration issue that has nothing to do with programming
user4639281
@Drew The only way to fix the broken window, i.e. the tag that is there justifying the questions, is to remove the tag, which is currently being argued against
I am arguing burn shouldn't even happen to begin with
user4639281
If a tag is decent enough to stick around, then it shouldn't be frozen. If it should be frozen, it should not contain questions.
user4639281
03:45
Hence, if you want to save the questions, make them exist without the tag
We know. We are all repeating ourselves now in a for loop I think on iteration 3
user4639281
If that means getting rid of the tag from questions asked about godaddy that could also have to do with something else, then get rid of the tag.
break;
IMHO I think we've got two issues here. One is that people are burning out trying to keep the site's quality up, the other is that there is disagreement over what should happen to tags that have burnination requests/if tags need burnination at all
user4639281
03:48
I agree with blacklisting a tag as soon as a burnination is approved by the community through voting. I do not agree that we should leave it at that and let off-topic garbage fester in the tag that users aren't allowed to use but is there anyway
Agreed
I think on the contrary it is a swell idea
How so?
n roll up your sleeves over time and del stuff
because we lack the resources
because I don't want to lose @Yvette for eternity from burnout
but isn't that what TinyGiant is also saying? We shouldn't just blacklist tags and forget the rest?
03:52
now if you have real courage, and we were all wimpy and never did it, we as in tuna br David Arenburg and myself. Write up a proposal for a cv-mod class of user that just cleans stuff. Like a mod, but all they do is clean. One vote zap.
Blacklisting on it's own isn't the answer. It needs to be accompanied by careful and thoughtful editing of posts to sort through the chaff for the wheat
Am I polluting the discussion with my cv requests?
user4639281
So instead of burning ourselves out reviewing content that really doesn't need to be reviewed because it is unarguable garbage, we need to clearly define the procedures for reviewing a burnination. As Shog suggests, ignore posts that will be roomba'd, downvote crap that won't be roomba'd but can be roomba'd with very few downvotes, edit the tag out of good content, and leave a pile of steaming crap for the mods or @shog to deal with.
@Drew like Mjölnir but for cleaning?
CV-MOD is just that
but we were too wimpy to present it
Part of it was due to the assumption, the arrogance, that we deserved to be in that pool. Which for me I could care less.
user4639281
03:54
That is putting too much responsibility on one person's shoulders, instead of spreading the load
spread the load. Like that happens anyway
@TinyGiant clearly defined procedures are one thing. If it's too easy to ignore those procedures (ie no system support for the procedures) then you'll have this old problem all over again
user4639281
Reduce the load as much as you can, then spread the rest as much as you can
Take godaddy and let's call it hypothetically 1000 questions. 5 CV-MODs do it. Each do 200. When done, shift a slot and review the work of another peer mod
I haven't been catching up with this discussion properly yet, but what I perceive to be a problem is the leaky communications in meta
user4639281
03:56
@JamesENL I am very aware of that, however we will probably never get what we want from SO in this matter.
The other alternative is having a tool like Smokey. Cross site spam was a problem, we came up with a workable solution
more specifically, there is no straightforward way to reach a consensus and a commitment from SO staff & admins that something is a problem and they will sort it out
user4639281
@Drew And what about review of those people's actions?
I just said that TG
you see that in every public bug tracker, of course
you wait for years, and then boom, or -- if you are lucky and ever receive a reply
user4639281
03:57
We found quite a few reasonable posts deleted by many members of this room during the godaddy burnination that we then edited, undeleted, and reopened
> When done, shift a slot and review the work of another peer mod
user4639281
The point is that we need to minimize the load, then spread it out as much as possible, to minimize the chance of one erroneous human causing lots of harm
right now all we have is burnout
58 secs ago, by Drew
> When done, shift a slot and review the work of another peer mod
There. I said it 3 times
user4639281
But that is still just 5 people
who cares
a CV-MOD is trusted.
03:59
@TinyGiant how many do you need? how large can a conspiracy be? why would there be a conspiracy?
user4639281
@Drew Then you're talking about a moderator

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