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08:00
or 10x more stupid, by index. win8 was putting some stupid "debugger NIC" randomly first or second depending on locale
(^ regarding unattended windows installs. I paused for 10 seconds to try to think of something to express how utterly moronic windows unattended instals are. I failed to come up with something
what
I've used HyperV extensively setting up a 'portable' (well, single-rack) development environment for a semi-large C++ software project before. It being C++ (of the old style) with some exceptionally cumbersome datamodel handling framework, it needed to be configured to have separate devs use separate raid arrays for their VMs, otherwise it would (obvsiously) grind to a halt. That worked so nicely, that I was motivated to pay € 100 to have Win8 Pro with HyperV
what do you want to configure your device by?
GUID?
@doug65536 Yeah. Sounds like windows alright.
by something deterministic, not the localized text of "Local Area Connection"
08:03
how is that not deterministic
@Cicada Oft inaccessible from relevant scripts (Powershell, WMI etc.)
I ended up using WMI to find the first IPEnabled NIC
@Cicada It's randomly generated?
@sehe "Local Area Connection" is randomly generated?
@Cicada can you tell me how to say "Local Area Connection" in every language that windows supports? Didn't think so
08:04
@Cicada Oh. You said "GUID" - "How is that not deterministic" :)
@doug65536 Can you tell me the GUID or "some-deterministic-but-unique-id" for every possible NIC on any version of Windows? I... didn't think so either ;)
@sehe Except I was making a huge sarcasm
Swooosh
As usual
:) I missed it
@doug65536 Yeah, you're probably installing 29873982 Windows, each with a different locale, I suppose?
@Cicada aren't we all...?
It's what I do when I'm bored
08:05
@jalf Only on tuesdays
@circada actually yes, I worked at microsoft and I was tasked with automating a test deployment system, and it had to get last nights windows build, and it had to support every SKU and every locale
Hahaha. bugs\@sehe.nl received a mail from "Beatrice Fuller" ([email protected]):
Dear sir/madam,
You have% become a victim of Internet fraud.
Your business banking account has been hacked.
All your money has been temporarily frozen and the access to the account has been blocked.
We strongly recommend to contact us in order to restore the access to the account and get your money back. Download and print attached document and send it by fax

Yours Faithfully,
IC3
I'm really worried now
@sehe Quick!! Do something!!
@sehe better transfer all your money to me for safekeeping :)
Yeah. I'll teach CRM114 how to properly junk spam next time
@jalf Only if you have a trustworthy looking email address
08:07
@jalf I'll make a backup or two.
@circada and it had to work on servercore which has no GUI
Send in the medics! I thought you died mid-sentence
@doug65536 poor you
i really have a hard time configuring headless debians
yes, I've recovered from the incident thanks :)
08:10
@doug65536 Wait. Why do you configure your servercore instances with fancy locales? (inb4: our clients might and we need to support it)
wondering what possibly the eth0 interface could be named
it has a command line interface that has to be localized
@doug65536 can't you just... you know, switch the locale before invoking the test?
@sehe no, are you trying to ruin his arguments or what
we didn't deploy from true setup files like a normal person, we used what we called "staged builds". that means that they are snapshots of the install at some point. They all end up in a different state so we ended up with disk images for different locales
08:13
@Cicada Nope. I'm interested in what makes it different on windows
Xeo
Xeo
Dafuq
see you when i wake up if i ever do
@doug65536 Aha. On UNIX, I'd probably make a 'build VM' that has all locales installed, and make it generate the various disk images from a single instance. I don't suppose something like that could work on windows?
@Cicada Take care
@Cicada Good morning.
08:17
Then again, I have a script in my current build environment that goes and replaces ".\Everyone" to ".\Iedereen" in configuration files... just to allow for the fact that servers are configured to run in the Dutch locale. Geez.
@sehe that's not far from what we did. we had some huge server farm that literally kicked off every install and snapshotted the disk image at some point. from the real (end user's) setup, what you describe would probably work
they have a 128-processor build server at microsoft lol
each build shows the % of CPU and stuff. was mind blowing how powerful that thing was
@doug65536 Wait, you work at microsoft?
they showed a task manager window of it for a laugh. each cpu was a tiny little box
not anymore
was in windows server division for a few years
Nice. I can see how you'd think the necessary expertise was available. I'll stop second guessing it then, and join you in lamenting the lameness of things then :)
I don't go around mentioning microsoft, you'd be surprised how many people turn on you. for ridiculous reasons.
lol
one time some guys said, ok smartypants, what is sizeof(wchar_t). I said well, usually 2, then they poured on the cocky attitudes because it's 4 on linux :|
08:22
@doug65536 I've worked with microsoft. Just not employed by microsoft. I wouldn't mind, I think. Depends on what the job is, obviously
@doug65536 Oooh. That's distressing :)
I hope they didn't conclude that you must work for MS just because you thought that wchar_t is usually 32 bits? I mean, I know HERDS of programmers that would be surprised if you told them that the Win32 API is not actually the standard
no, it was when I decided never to mention it to people
people get the idea that I'm saying I'm authoritative because of that and their attitude goes funny
@doug65536 Ah. Okay, I get what you meant now. You can't go around being a netizen anymore, since you've got the label on your forehead.
@doug65536 So you're the one we should blame for everything that sucks about Windows, is what you're saying? ;)
only windows server. if you have issues with WS-Management compression, it's all my fault
in that case I totally agree about the NIC naming :)
08:29
AFAIK you can barely even find WS-Management compression mentioned on the internet, so I feel like I did ok :P
that's the closest to customer facing work that I did at MS
supporting compression with thousands of connections at once while being near 0 cpu and memory was not easy
@doug65536 what is WS-Management? And why would it is have thousands of connections?
Googling now, obviously
good morning peeps
it is a protocol that allows remote management (remote shells, etc). powershell integrates with it to enable running commands on massive numbers of machines simultaneously
> WS-Management provides a common way for systems to access and exchange management information across the IT infrastructure. The specification is quite rich, supporting much more than get/set of simple variables, and in that it is closer to WBEM or Netconf than to SNMP. A mapping of the DMTF-originated Common Information Model into WS-Management was also defined.
^ And SOAP
yes, SOAP is the core of it
08:34
Mawning
Sounds nice.
@TonyTheLion Roar
also, if you've used Exchange's self-managed mailbox thing (microsoft hosts the hardware, you configure your mail with scripts etc), it's Powershell+WSMan
oh god
08:36
Can you use const char* (as a string) as a key for std::unordered_map?
morning all
¬_¬ I see some one got loose at the unicode
yes, technically, WS-Management has a huge scope. the shell protocol was what I focused on
And morning to you all, btw.
@doug65536 you know a thing or two about security then
@MarkGarcia You need to supply your own hash and comparison functors
08:38
@MarkGarcia yeah, why not
we were continually pressured to learn secure coding etc yes
Don't use const char* ever for anything other than interop with C
tia
@doug65536 secure coding, is one thing. Secure protocol design is a whole different matter
wsmanagement is committee based. I never got into that part of it
Secure coding is mainly discipline and paranoia. Secure protocols are teh hardz
08:39
I was mostly pissed off that it uses base-64 and they want it to be fast too lol
@CatPlusPlus @sehe tnx.
@doug65536 >> SOAP << 'nuff said
ok cool, let's tack on 20% overhead and by the way, can you make this thing go really fast? thanks
SOAP is more than 20% overhead, surely
base-64 is 20% overhead. yeah at first the latencies were horrible (seconds) but we got them down to milliseconds
08:41
So, at first you used .NET remoting with self hosted SOAP :)
it was all about getting through firewalls in a way that admins liked
(^ also, way to get portable behaviour, so that was obviously a joke)
if you tell an admin he has to open port X, laser beams will come out of his eyes
Completely rational
cough
user142019
Man.
user142019
08:43
Zoidlang spec says that it's possible in inherit from a base class.
user142019
But there is no syntax for it.
@Zoidberg So it lied
lol
Sue the author
user142019
No.
user142019
08:44
You can still do it through reflection. :P
Wide is actually coming along a bit
@Zoidberg Brillant. That'd be about as good as Javascript then
@sehe yes, that too
a few more features and I can bootstrap compiler.
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG So it will be called Long now?
user142019
08:45
Or through UB.
@doug65536 Anyways. Nice to hear some war stories and meeting you a bit more. I'm off to work now
Xeo
Xeo
Anyways, off to work I go. See ya in a bit.
@sehe have fun :)
Ooo. This is an usual sight for me:
@Xeo I think so. That's the beach episode right?
Xeo
Xeo
08:46
@StackedCrooked aye
Also ^ the bounty should something for our resident spec-fetishists
@CatPlusPlus this needs to be perma-pinned
@DeadMG self hosting yet?
slacker :P
lol
08:51
^ kinda cool
are you only allowing C+ to included, or C as well?
@sehe that fast cut editing is really grating
meh. I liked it. Which means it cannot be bad. Since I despise fast editing. I don't do television much, and I don't get how people can "watch" MTV or similar (does MTV still exist?)
ok, it's worth a watch :P
@sehe probably, shit tends to linger
are there many cases where C++ and C outright conflict in language semantics?
what do you mean?

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