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01:00
I'm gonna write a markdown wiki for everybody.
So that they know that: z is the depth axis, not the up axis, for all models
All models should not have a natural scaling factor. All scaling factors should be 1, so they can be scaled without looking like fuck-all in the engine.
but Y up is bleh D:
Y up is natural.
@ThePhD Eh? 0?
Because it's also Up in 2D.
you mean...all scaling factors should be 1, right?
01:01
Woops, 1.
Teehee, that would have been embarassing.
But yeah.
They model them all with Z being up.
Which is just a terrible design decision when thinking in terms of 2D text that gets put in a 3D environment.
Usually you specify X and Y, not X and Z and stick a '0' component in the middle.
z up is as natural as y up, just depends if you're coming from a side view 2D or a top view 2D..
A lot of games have abandoned the idea of top-down.
Perspective and flat-side are best, and in those cases 'Z' is used for Depth.
also, argueing that world space should be one way or another because games used to work in screen space is bleh
Why is everyone making Minecraft clones
I'm saying it's easier when I have to write 2D.
01:04
I'm not :D
@CatPlusPlus Me neither!
user1182183
Also, for fucks sake, the hardware even calls its depth-buffer testing z-testing and z buffer.
yeah so what
it shouldnt matter which way the world is oriented
Z is for depth!
01:06
yes
but in a 3D world, what is depth
it shouldnt have to mean anything
user1182183
@ThePhD many games refuse to use Z as depth and use Y instead :P
you have a world matrix for a reason
what is generally bests in terms of performance for games: infrequent large batch jobs or frequent small batch jobs ?
@melak47 Specifying a world matrix for certain models to have a rotation around the axis is not the greatest way to go.
01:07
(Fun fact: I simply googled for a bunch of the lyrics in quotes)
user1182183
@EtiennedeMartel ahw yeah thank you sooo much, my hero <3
@Dave infrequent small ones :3
user1182183
@EtiennedeMartel somehow I hadn't so much luck ; o
@ThePhD global view matrix then. whatever. want 2d? use a 2D matrix.
._.
01:08
model space and world space shouldnt have anything to do with view space
This is adding unnecessary extra work for what is really just a rotation job for a modeler.
For one rogue modeler.
you need the capability to rotate things anyway
@melak47 is that because of the way hardware is optimized?
user1182183
Living on the edge of the city limit line
@Dave erm..
user1182183
01:09
I swear I hear "lemond lime"
> infrequent small batch jobs
I didn't really answer your question :)
ohh lol i misread your response hehe
smart arse
that'll teach you to take people here seriously
> Invalid parameters to Map cause undefined behavior and might cause the operating system to crash.
That's one hell of a UB.
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah, I've done that before. It was fun.
MAP_WRITE_DISCARD, you traitor.
user142019
01:11
@DeadMG did you build LLVM as a DLL?
@Zoidberg No, static lib.
user142019
Oh. :L
DLL building isn't supported on Windows, I think.
lols well i have a real time game which needs to keep updating the player even if not logged in so im working out if to it in large batches or small ones
@Zoidberg Fuck DLLs.
user142019
01:12
@DeadMG nope; needs MinGW.
WinMG
I like it.
user142019
xD
user142019
MeadGD
user142019
Anyway, I need a DLL so I'm screwed.
user142019
Time to install MinGW.
01:13
@Zoidberg Sounds like an enhanced Medieval brewery game.
that's me, WinMG
user142019
CLR y u no static libraries.
that wouldn't be sufficiently pointlessly dynamic.
user142019
Should I install MSYS Basic System when installing MinGW?
no idea
01:16
Might as well.
you need MinGW if you want to make executables from LLVM output anyways
user142019
Did you have trouble building LLVM?
not really
user142019
Great.
once I fixed the Python-related shenanigans, I simply set it for debug 32-bit static library VS2012 solution
user142019
01:18
Ah okay.
msys thing is a bunch of unixy tools. install it
user142019
Fuck. I need sh.
user142019
Oh okay I installed it. :)
@ScottW Impossible to say without specific criteria.
01:21
@Cicada Nice cock.
yes, birds perfectly keep their heads still. this guy really exaggerates it
(I know it's not really a cock)
@Cicada omfg LOL
I can't stop laughing
I'm afraid to install vs2012 a bit. free one I mean
man
I had something I was doing but forgot it
01:23
@ScottW The released version currently has only minimal improvement over VS 2010, but there's a CTP that's added a fair amount of C++11 goodness (but only to the compiler, not the library -- and it's definitely preview/beta level).
I want to try out C++11 but only have VS10. Will that do?
are you kidding? the library is the most important part. still locked people into InitializeCriticalSection and other crap that ties your code to windows
user142019
Install Linux and clang and problem solved.
@Cicada Yep.
@Cicada not really :/
Xeo
Xeo
01:25
@Cicada VC10 got most C++11 stuff for day-to-day coding covered, actually. auto, lambdas, rvalue refs.
@doug65536 No.
VS2010 has the best concurrency library around.
way better than the Standard threads.
@DeadMG ? :o
@Zoidberg I have those. But I don't have a really decent C++ IDE for Linux (Qt Creator is the best one, and it's not that good)
Xeo
Xeo
@doug65536 Because writing abstractions over that is really hard, if you had to (hint: you don't)
and the C++11 language features, rvalue refs, auto, lambdas, are the most important.
Xeo
Xeo
01:25
@melak47 ConcRT
user142019
s/VS2010/Erlang/
So what am I gonna miss with VS10?
@DeadMG but but variadic template thingies
Xeo
Xeo
Variadic templates
@melak47 Fuck em.
Xeo
Xeo
01:26
Using aliases
And constexpr.
@Cicada for-range loops.
@Xeo why not std::mutex? because then they wouldn't have a monopoly on the compiler/platform that works on your code
@Cicada The main annoying things are template aliases and variadic templates.
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG Variadic emplace would've been nice. :/
I love for range loops.
Xeo
Xeo
01:26
@doug65536 Wtf, what's wrong with using std::mutex?
@Cicada another missing item is initializer_lists's.
@doug65536 Because std::mutex sucks horrifically.
Xeo
Xeo
@Rapptz Meh, simple BOOST_FOREACH.
@DeadMG why do you say that?
Boost is huge
Rather not.
Xeo
Xeo
01:27
Or your own variant (it's not that hard to write as soon as you have auto and rvalue refs.
@JerryCoffin Six months ago, I would have put that as a major loss, but unfortunately init lists and uniform init turned out to be a huge fail.
Xeo
Xeo
@Rapptz Not again.... sigh
user142019
Okay. sh .\configure ran well.
@DeadMG why?
01:27
@doug65536 Firstly, it's a blocking mechanism, which is bad, and secondly, you still have to build all your own concurrent algorithms and data structures from scratch.
it's hideously primitive.
@Xeo doesn't work in VS
@DeadMG They certainly have some limitations, but I still wish they were present (definitely very handy at times).
@Xeo You know very well I don't like using boost unless I have to.
TBB and PPL are far more advanced, far more useful.
user142019
PS C:\Users\daknok\Desktop\llvm-3.1.src> make
llvm[0]: Constructing LLVMBuild project information.
make.exe": /c/Users/daknok/Desktop/llvm-3.1.src/"C:/MinGW/msys/1.0/bin/make.exe": Command not found
user142019
01:28
What the fuck.
@melak47 Basically because the Standard cocked them up so that they're utterly ambiguous and generally worthless in any template code.
Xeo
Xeo
@Rapptz You don't have ranged-for in VC10. What do?
Use VS2012 because I have it.
@Rapptz 2012.
It was a typo, thank you.
01:29
@Zoidberg You're supposed to use CMake on Windows.
Xeo
Xeo
@Zoidberg Haha, cygwin only sees /path as absolute (I guess). :)
@DeadMG I don't use it for hot code paths. I also don't waste time micro-optimizing everything, so for unimportant stuff, blocking is fine, since usually nobody will block
user142019
Ohh.
@doug65536 It's still pathetically primitive, requiring the user to do virtually all of the work.
user142019
PS C:\Users\daknok\Desktop\llvm-3.1.src> sh
sh.exe"-3.1$ make # this works :P
01:30
any fool can throw a wrapper over a CRITICAL_SECTION
user142019
Stupid PowerShell.
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG Nobody said std::mutex was anything more than a primitive building block.
getting a critical section right is difficult
@DeadMG don't worry, I do tons of lock free and atomic stuff. too much, I'm starting to back off from microoptimizing every multithreaded thing
user142019
01:30
Oh yeah right now my computer is heating my room again.
@DeadMG but it would be soooo much easier with unique_resource<> :)
@Xeo No, but what I did say is that there is far better out there.
Xeo
Xeo
That may be true.
@doug65536 I'm not saying you should. What I am saying is that VS already ships with a library that does a whole bunch of this stuff for you.
@DeadMG Yes -- the standard just tries to standardize the interface so code using them can be portable.
Xeo
Xeo
01:31
Herb also talked about non-blocking stuff missing from std.
user142019
@DeadMG couldn't figure out how to enable shared library builds. xD
I'm not sure those are supported at all on Windows.
user142019
@JerryCoffin Well, I think that concurrency is a really fucking difficult thing (for most people; not for me) and the Standard should go a lot further to make it accessible, similar to what the PPL and TBB have done.
user142019
> LLVM needs to be built as a shared library so that it can be dynamically loaded. On Windows, this requires the use of MinGW as Visual Studio can't build LLVM as a shared library (yet).
01:32
fair enough
but I can't really help you so good luck on your own! :D
but then
@Cicada Wait, you're going to use VS2010 and not 2012? o_O
there is already a working group for more useful concurrent tools.
I don't like 2012
@DeadMG If you're going to complain about that, the place to look is really promises/futures (which certainly have serious problems too).
Don't give yourself the pain of not having the November CTP.
01:33
What
Xeo
Xeo
@ThePhD Eh, I wouldn't use the Nov CTP for anything other than playing around.
just don't turn optimisations on if you're using 2012
@Xeo I use it seriously.
Xeo
Xeo
It's extremely buggy.
SRSLY. D:<
01:34
@JerryCoffin Nah. I think that the lack of concurrent algorithms and data structures is the real pain point.
I'm fine with 2010 and unless there's something absolutely amazing with 2012 I won't upgrade
Xeo
Xeo
@ThePhD You also don't use Boost. You suck. Q.E.D.
Ooh, you already have 2010 and you just wanna stick with it...
@ThePhD muhahaha "seriously" :)
@Xeo =[
01:34
@Cicada If you're only intending to play around a bit and can tolerate quite a bit of le bugs, then the 2012 CTP does add a lot.
I have boost isntalled now. D:
@ThePhD Well ofc, what do you think I develop C# with?
@ThePhD WHOA don't overdo "seriousness" now
@sehe q_q
21
Q: Is it now wrong to "return" from a "switch" statement in C++11?

user2065121Using VS2012, I noticed that a switch that's been working for several years now seems to be broken in Release builds but works correctly (or at least as it used to) in Debug builds. I can't see anything at all wrong with the code so would appreciate some feedback on the correctness of using retur...

01:35
I use boost when I have to.
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG A lot of bugs which is a show stopper for any non-trivial variadic template usage (including the decltype bugs)
@DeadMG My point is that they were at least intended to provide a high-level interface that make concurrency easy for most uses.
does vs 2012 add a text editor that doesn't cause it to go crazy and make you lose work because intellisense blew up?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit did something change there?
Xeo
Xeo
@doug65536 Never happened to me evar.
01:35
@DeadMG hmm maybe I should turn off the november ctp and see if my app doesn't crash randomly anymore if I do :o
@DeadMG I do intend to play around a bit but keep in mind that my level is far below yours so I probably won't touch anything complex
Xeo
Xeo
And not even in 2010
@Cicada I wonder: can 2010 handle the .NET 4.5 ?
01:36
> Color theme can help you have the Light or Dark color.
@Xeo there's a memory corruption that is really hard to reproduce. causes text editor to go nuts. it's intellisense related, because certain code makes it likely
Xeo
Xeo
@ThePhD You're essentially deliberately crippling yourself by decidedly not using Boost. But whatever.
@Xeo I SAID I HAVE IT ALREADY GOD ;~;
Xeo
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Update 2 CTP 3 added "blue" theme. :D
@ThePhD Having does not imply using.
01:37
I use it occasionally, when necessary.
@ThePhD I don't think so
I guess you could say Boost is nice...
@Cicada Hm. Well, IIRC, SHarpDX should be backwards compatible with .NET 4.0, so you should still be okay.
It's backwards compatible with 2.0
... I think it goes back as far as .NEt 20
fuc, can't link to individual MSDN Social comments?
01:38
fuc
lol
Cuf
UFC!
@Xeo Wait. VS2012 already has a CTP3 ?
one commenter gives a registry solution for the uppercase menu
wow.
Xeo
Xeo
01:38
@Cicada "Update 2 CTP 3".
So no.
I live under a rock
Xeo
Xeo
It's a CTP for the update 2
not a continuation of the nov ctp
Bad naming strikes again.
VS2012 is still a CTP? im confus now
Xeo
Xeo
No~
The Update 2 is out as a CTP.
Xeo
Xeo
01:39
There's VS2012 Update 1 for now.
And a preview for Update 2
And that preview is currently the third iteration, so "update 2 ctp 3"
Bad naming etc.
Okay.
@JerryCoffin I'm not really sure that they do at all.
> I really like the new look of visual studio, I use both the light and dark themes on each computer. It's a slightly more modern look and is in line with trends in UI design.
> Things change, tastes change. And people like a new look every now and again. I think if designers pandered to the tastes of the most vocal malcontents, we'd still have windows 95 graphics. I for one, would NOT go back to 2010 UI. I like opening up VS to see the new interface on my new laptop. I even like BOLD !! :P
but I'm off for the night anyway
01:41
GG
good night
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I personally don't like it
Xeo
Xeo
<3 dark theme
> The overall concept is genius and I will simply say that they are going hand in hand with latest designing ideas. Actually, this look is very modern look and I agree that guys out there need time to understand the perfection that MS has put into the VS2012. I would love to see this brilliant work in complete windows 8 theme. It will be so nice of them. I am just in love with this new look, this new avatar of VS and actually I love working on this beautiful interface.
what is wrong with people!
meh alright
i'll try to find my msdnaa account
it must be SOMEWHERE
Xeo
Xeo
Gawd, I'm sleepy.
01:44
@Cicada yaay
Xeo
Xeo
Making D&D characters till 1 in the morning as a preparation for a system change and a new campaign is kinda tiring.
> In this day an age when machines boot up in 6 seconds there is no need for ulgy UI's
haha
@LightnessRacesinOrbit well, tbh, i'd prefer all of windows 8 looked like Visual studio compared to what it looks like now :S
@Xeo For the game you work on? :)
Xeo
Xeo
@Cicada "D&D" == "Dungeons & Dragons".
Pen & Paper RPG
01:45
oh sorry i'm sleepy too
@LightnessRacesinOrbit LOL. fix it in a future release. I've heard that before
years later, it's fixed
why is vs still 32 bit
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'd say I can't imagine how people could be that much slaves to fashion, but then I look at hair-dos from the '80s (for example) and realize that yes, quite a few people really are.
@Cicada Legacy reasons or something.
Plus, I've seen the VS source code. The product is mother-fucking-gigantic.
01:48
microsoft's resolution of the bad code generation: "The product team has reviewed this issue and has deferred it for consideration at a later time"
legacy? on something that doesn't even run on XP? ._.
If anyone tried to make sure it was all x86 compatible somebody would lose their mind.
@ThePhD Yeah I believe that
@ThePhD Well eventually they'll have to, right?
@ThePhD Don't need to look at the source code... it takes nearly 10gb of hdd space
user142019
@DeadMG I got CMake to build DLLs and they build and link fine. Still compiling though. Hope it all works. :P
Xeo
Xeo
01:49
@Cicada VS2012 can compile for XP atleast. :D
> The source code of Visual Studio 2012 consists of approximately 50 million lines of code.[125]
@Xeo Oh they added support?
@Cicada Eventually. But not in any dev cycle anytime soon, I don't think.
@Rapptz GCC is around that too.
that's bug report techno-babble for "we're not fixing it, and no, nobody is working on it"
Xeo
Xeo
01:50
Anyways, I think I'll hit the sack, g'night.
user142019
GCC is not an IDE.
GCC is a compiler collection for multiple languages though.
@Zoidberg Which is even more scary, when you think about it.
user142019
It's a compiler collection. :P
user142019
Also yea
user142019
01:50
GCC was written in C.
user142019
So no wonder it's much more lines of code.
But it's being built with C++ nowadays!
GCC has more lines of codes than Linux. :what:
It's written in C++ now.
Maybe they'll clean shit up.
user142019
01:51
If it's not rewritten from scratch than it's probably still C.
C with Classes.
Yeah a good 99% chunk of it probably.
user142019
Or ~C with Classes~.
iirc they announced the C++ thing in GCC 4.7.0
@JerryCoffin Funny thing is we'll be saying the same thing in thirty years' time about 2013. Well, some of us will be, anyway :)
user142019
01:52
All these DLLs better build.
@doug65536 baffling innit
night night kids
is ultimate so much better than premium? I can get both but I don't really see the point of ultimate
@LightnessRacesinOrbit nightie
In either case, MSDNAA should land you Professional edition (or Premium, whatever they're calling it nowadays)
ultimate has good profiler and multi-machine test execution framework
But you might as well just get Ultimate for the Profiler.
If it's free, no reason to skimp.
01:53
the profiler is sexy
user142019
Also TIL that my favourite shortcuts work in Windows.
windows has profiling throughout the entire operating system using ETW (event tracing)
user142019
Control+Left and Control+Right.
native windows profilers don't do much except parse the ETW profile/etc events and convert addresses to symbols
10 mins download
this better be good :c
user142019
01:57
Fucking linker error. ;_;
most people aren't aware of the enormous amount of built-in debugging and performance analysis functionality in windows.

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