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15:00
Do we need this jerkoff in here
Has OpenGL stopped being a pile of junk?
What's happening?
Is it actually usable now?
@Cicada you are hurting my feelings
@BartekBanachewicz Nothing against you. It was a pile of junk years ago.
15:01
@Cicada for some values of usable, yes
@Cicada I always liked OpenGL, even though I knew it has quirks. That's how love works, probably. Acceptance n'shit.
> What Im wondering now is that Im not sure if this code acctually implements what Im looking for. Any suggestions?
@_@
@BartekBanachewicz Well I had the choice to learn DX9 or OGL when I started (6 years ago!). And at that time I was told that OGL sucked so I went to DX route.
But I'm willing to go back to OGL
@Cicada Minicraft, hint, hint
@Cicada I learned basics of both Dx and OGL when I started, and I liked OGL a lot more. Never had to look back.
15:03
@Cicada 6 years ago 3.0 wasn't out yet.
@R.MartinhoFernandes "trolled" by the window system?
@sehe con-trolled
@Cicada How the fuck was OpenGL not "usable"?
It way beats that pile of crap that's the D3D API
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It just wasn't. It was a crapload of extensions and stuff.
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, but that screenie is funny, and probably intentional
15:04
@Cicada In 1992 sure
@Cicada extensions are fairly easy to use, actually.
@R.MartinhoFernandes So I assume 3.0 removed some suckage?
@Cicada a lot
They are reducing state dependance
more functions can "just work"
instead of shitload of binds
15:04
@Lightness ^ What an educated and mature response to learning something …
@sehe I just jumped to a random page and that was what I saw.
@BartekBanachewicz I'll give it a try then!
Any good tutorial?
Recent, if possible
@Cicada Whoa, you’ve regressed
@Cicada heh, Jason has the best one. arcsynthesis.org/gltut I envy this guy so much
@KonradRudolph I know I just really couldn't be bothered today :(
15:06
@KonradRudolph Hello there.
@KonradRudolph Er, wait a second
harlem shake, puppy style
@KonradRudolph Let's not jump to the conclusion that that was a "response to learning something". Let's step off that high horse for a moment. I never accepted the premise of your comment reply and I'm not saying that I do now. I simply do not have the time or energy to continue that discussion today, is all.
user142019
LLVM demo page y u disabled.
15:07
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I was aware of that. I was trying to phrase it in a friendly way ;)
@R.MartinhoFernandes his tags are perfectly aligned with mine. He is just better in everything :/
@KonradRudolph It doesn't mean you've successfully "schooled" me
@BartekBanachewicz Thanks
@KonradRudolph Okay just checking :P
@BartekBanachewicz Sadly he hasn't finished it yet :(
15:07
@BartekBanachewicz Don't tell the puppy that.
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked, did you watch Kotoura-san 6 yet?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit tell what?
@BartekBanachewicz Read the message I replied to. That's what I was talking about. Because that's how replies work sigh
@BartekBanachewicz That Nicol is better in everything. DeadMG hates Nicol.
No, he doesn't.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'll find the quote.
15:08
Where did you get that idea from?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit now that helps. why should he?
Admittedly it'll be a paraphrase
16 hours ago, by DeadMG
what the fuck is wrong with Nicol Bolas
Anyway, one day I will learn all that stuff he knows
...
he was just reacting to one proposal
15:09
Oh, he got into an argument with him yesterday, but that's not representative of his overall opinion, I think.
Then he shouldn't have brought personal insults into it. This is what happens, kids.
It's on public record, now.
He was just surprised that Nicol held some particular opinion on some particular subject, especially because he thinks of him as someone smart.
Yeah and, for the record, Nicol was right
He is old. He is supposed to know stuff, right?
So now he "hates him" precisely as much as he thinks he's a "moron".
Next topic
15:11
Nov 6 '12 at 22:35, by DeadMG
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, but it does surprise me. He doesn't seem like a gibbering idiot.
That's a compliment.
When debugging C#, in the machine code display window, can I make the debugger follow calls?
Xeo
Xeo
F11, step into?
It skips
Xeo
Xeo
Hm, does it call a system function? it might skip because it doesn't have the disassembly. Tbh, though, I haven't played around much with debugging disassembly. :P
@Xeo It doesn't have what.
How can it run?
15:16
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's C#
it does magic
@Xeo Yeah it's in a native frame but I want that native frame :(
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Eh... the original source, not the disassembly.
At least that's what C# devs say
Xeo
Xeo
Is there a mobile version of the google groups? :s
Ell
Ell
Flargunshtow
15:18
Also
@Cicada in options, under 'debugging' uncheck "Only own code" (or something like that). And there is a switch for skipping properties (geeters/setters) but maybe it's the same. Ctrl-Alt-E to bring up the exception dialog (to filter for native/managed exceptions, even when handled)
Is the grow-to-double-size-when-full technique the most omptimal?
@sehe Oh thanks! I'll try that
@Cicada Isn't fi (1.618...) better?
@Cicada Talking about vectors or something?
I guess depends what optimal means
Because the most optimal can be to do one allocation
The one equal to the final size.
15:20
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, any consecutive storage of elements
A 1.5x factor has some advantages.
(2x growth will never reuse the same heap block)
yeah
you have to have it below Phi if you want to re-use heap blocks
Damn.
I said it, but he's not listening to me -.-
but it has to be exponential in some factor to make the complexity guarantees.
@sehe It worked!! cheers :)
Ell
Ell
15:21
Why do mathematical constants come into this?
@Ell Because if it's above Phi, you can't re-use heap blocks.
why has phi anything to do with this
@Ell Wait you are asking why numbers are related to multiplying stuff?
I've read it somewhere
15:22
put it this way
Well well. This windows thingie. I must say I'm impressed. I like Win8 a lot. It's snappy (well, on my 32GiB RAM with SSD it is snappy). And it "just works" for ... 80% (just a shame that some of the stuff I'd like to have "just work" "just will not")
let's say you have grown N times.
@sehe still better than linux. 100% things "can work"
ideally, the size of the N+1'th allocation can be met from the previous N deallocations.
N-1 you mean.
15:23
yeah, that.
@BartekBanachewicz Well, Linux gives me the things I need. And for free.
This, basically. (in the picture, a is φb)
which is Phi.
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's the definition of.. yeah, well, Phi. -.-
Also, creepy things like this in the log:
Log Name:      System
Source:        Microsoft-Windows-HAL
Date:          17-2-2013 12:50:29
Event ID:      12
Task Category: None
Level:         Error
Keywords:      (1)
User:          N/A
Computer:      Desktop
Description:
The platform firmware has corrupted memory across the previous system power transition.  Please check for updated firmware for your system.
Event Xml:
<Event xmlns="http://schemas.microsoft.com/win/2004/08/events/event">
  <System>
    <Provider Name="Microsoft-Windows-HAL" Guid="{63D1E632-95CC-4443-9312-AF927761D52A}" />
15:24
My screen1
I know what Phi is but I see no obvious reason why it's a better reallocation factor than 2
2 mins ago, by DeadMG
ideally, the size of the N+1'th allocation can be met from the previous N deallocations.
what
why would that be
I have seen 6 different General Protection Faults in the event logs. Also, HyperV has managed to lose connection to a storage device mid run. It then diagnosed the configuration of a VM instance as 'corrupt', saying "The setting BootNumlockOn has an invalid value". WTF. Oh, and, at the time, the VM was running. Mind boggled.
@BartekBanachewicz READ STUFF. Or don't comment
@Cicada Let's say you have reallocated n times so far. With 2x, that means you have 2^n times the original size, and have recently deallocated a 2^(n-1) size block, and a 2^(n-2) size block before that, and so on. The sum of all that previously deallocated space is 2^n. Now, to double the current allocation, you need 2^(n+1) space.
All that 2^n previously deallocated space cannot be reused for that 2^(n+1) allocation.
15:28
@BartekBanachewicz READ STUFF. Or don't comment
@sehe okay, duh.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hm, okay, that makes sense.
However, if you make that φx instead of 2x, it just matches up perfectly (see picture above) and you can reuse it.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I hate this.
[ Oh, and there was nothing in the event log to explain why my secondary hard disk just went missing. (Rescanning from Disk management brought it back online with no further... apologies :)) ]
@BartekBanachewicz :)
15:30
@R.MartinhoFernandes And would you happen to know if it works better with Phi in real-world scenarios? :)
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG: Just as an FYI, std::vector<std::unique_ptr<T>>::resize works just fine.
@Cicada Well, it won't match up perfectly, because you can only allocate in integral amounts.
But anything less than phi allows reuse.
Oh. And I was shuffling cables, UBS ports, power checks and so on for my EDIROL UA25 external sound card, flustered why it would not "come on". After much trouble, I found out, the driver was missing. Installing from windows update didn't work. Had to download from Roland.com
Mind you, this sound card has been working on Linux, out of the box, for well over 5 years
But if we consider the ratio (number of reallocs)/(average wasted space) instead of reusability, which is better?
15:32
That depends a lot on usage patterns.
I wish I could play on my guitar, but my multieffect broke, and using pc card is shitty
I wanted to go home and bring my amp, but the damn thing is heavy.
If you are going to have a lot of reallocations, you should reserve first anyway.
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, not necessarily. I've heard weird things about that
I don't see why not.
@BartekBanachewicz ?!
15:34
I don't neither. That's what I heard.
"FUD" anyone ?
Xeo
Xeo
Also, @DeadMG, I think it'll be hard to make shared_ptr as flexible as unique_ptr wrt the managed resource, except if you introduce another template parameter.
Well, I once found a guy in the comments that was swearing that libstdc++'s vector reallocated by +1 instead of a growth factor.
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz What have you heard?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yup. I recently "optimized" a parser by a factor 2x-3x just by inserting judicious reserve calls. It was on small data so I was surprised it mattered so much
15:36
@Xeo that push_back should be enough.
NVM
@BartekBanachewicz I is. Depending on performance needs....
Xeo
Xeo
@sehe The size of the data is irrelevant, the amount of hits on the system allocator is what counts.
Is what I think, anyways.
@Xeo And that, again, depends quite a bit on the allocator (lib) used. But yeah, that's basically it
I once heard that #including anything was UB.
3
@R.MartinhoFernandes And now I have, too!
15:38
you are making fun of me.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ha. I still remember that. And the guy had a pretty strong case for the C specs too, IIRC. But it wasn't very useful in practice
@BartekBanachewicz No I am not.
I feel weird today.
Well. You're fully in synch with your true self then
Here: stackoverflow.com/a/9831307/46642 (now deleted, but there's a second go at it from the same person still visible at -2 score)
> In C if you include a nonstandard header, the behavior is undefined.
Xeo
Xeo
15:43
Seriously, how can you even believe that? How woulld you ever write any maintainable code if including anything but standard headers was disallowed. :/
UB is not disallowed.
Another frequent fallacy :)
user142019
I'm trying to generate assembly code and I fail.
@Xeo Right, I think the semantics of that changed. But copy constructor alone happily proves my point.
user142019
I wrote an abstraction that has variables but now I need to allocate them somehow.
@Xeo I know that.
user142019
15:51
Think I'll just use registers for now.
@R.MartinhoFernandes > No, "undefined behavior" simply means any situation for which the programming language standard either says that it has "undefined behavior", or for which it provides no definition of behavior. It does not mean "not defined by any system or vendor". It means not standard-defined. A compiler's behavior is not very well standard-defined at all! The C standard only partially defines what happens when #include <unistd.h> is processed. Not enough to actually define the consequences.
What.
user142019
Hmm.
user142019
(Ab)using dynamic to defer overload resolution to runtime seems nice.
user142019
Feels like pattern matching. :P
15:58
That looks horrible
That and your terrible brace style

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