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user142019
16:00
Obye.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Is the experiment meant solely to find out how many people will star that?
@Zoidberg what?
@R.MartinhoFernandes probably, yes
How widely is ADA used in the industry?
A Merlot or Cabernet Sauvignon? Help me decide.
@Cicada very much. Aerospace, military, space missions.
Ada 2012 is actually pretty nice
@BrettHale the latter
16:02
hehe
suckers
Should I cancel stars and ruin the experiment hmmm
Any reason why ADA is used in those fields
dammit... I underestimated the time-to-unstar limit!
of course the FAQ doesn't tell us what the limit is
user142019
@CatPlusPlus Yes.
There's no limit
At least I don't remember there being a limit
16:03
There is
Yes, there is
I thought it was 2m but maybe it's 5m or 10m
The room sidebar is intended to be a collaboratively created mini-timeline of interesting room events for people who don't have time to read the entire chat transcript for that particular room.
Heh. Welcome to the Lounge.
Anyway I can cancel all stars whenever I want :v
@LightnessRacesinOrbit potato
@LightnessRacesinOrbit He's not talking about "unstarring". He's talking about "cancelling". Secret owner super power. Watch.
@CatPlusPlus I don't think that you should be a room owner.
16:04
Ahahaha
He's a room owner, leave him alone
@R.MartinhoFernandes Okay, but I was talking about unstarring. Which is why I said "unstar".
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that's dangerous topic
No, I thought there was no limit on unstarring either
@BartekBanachewicz so is C++
16:05
Anyway, why do we have only 11 owners?
@CatPlusPlus cos u is spoiled by ur power bro
@CatPlusPlus There is. Less than 18 minutes.
@BartekBanachewicz Noob hints.
@BartekBanachewicz Because
@R.MartinhoFernandes odd number
PRIME number
16:06
@R.MartinhoFernandes nah, I don't qualify.
We save the 12th spot for sbi
oh dat ape
@CatPlusPlus why isn't he permanent?
He doesn't want to.
16:07
oh well
Room ownership comes with arbitrary and mostly useless powers
No kicking powers is silly.
I have no idea what "cancel stars" is supposed to be for
Other than screwing around
@CatPlusPlus making the starboard useful?
user142019
I'm having ~breakfast~ in a few moments. :|
16:08
@Zoidberg What's so shocking about it
user142019
It's 5 PM.
So?
Standard breakfast time
user142019
That's late for breakfast.
Especially on Saturday
user142019
16:09
Breakfast is usually at seven or eight.
You should have tea instead.
@Cicada - started CompSci at Uni of Adelaide (Aus) in 93. ADA was all the rage, because that state (South Aus) had serious defence industries, and the academics were consulting / teaching in it. It has a long shelf life too, being used for military control systems. (Submarine industry in South Aus). Needless to say, I've forgotten pretty much everything I learnt - remember 'packages and generics' instead of 'libraries and templates'.
user142019
Eww tea.
I'd say it's early
I just made soup :v
16:09
I want cake
user142019
Yummy soup.
user142019
Cake is dry and tasteless.
holy fucking hell
why so many noobs can't grasp the idea of unique_ptr?
user142019
@DeadMG BECAUSE IT'S NOT COPYABLE SO IT'S USELESS.
16:10
@DeadMG What now?
There was one game a week idea last year
I don't know how far they got :v
@BrettHale But why is it used in that particular field more than, say, C++? Does it have some kind of import belligerence?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Look at generic RAII library again.
can dropbox ignore files by extension yet? :/
@Cicada Safety
16:10
@BartekBanachewicz - you've made the decision easy. Cab Sav it is.
that one guy put down like 6 posts and linked to an implementation where he destroys this in his assignment operator and doesn't even reconstruct it.
Ada focuses on correctness way stronger than C++
@DeadMG Oh that. I stopped caring some time ago.
@Zoidberg yes
@CatPlusPlus Just that? ADA isn't the only safe language out there
16:11
@Cicada it makes making mistakes harder. It was designed for mission-critical from day 0.
I find it a bit ironic to not want to make mistakes when you program the OS of a missile
You don't want it to hit you obviously
@Cicada i don't at all
@DeadMG restricted_unique_resource, stripped_unique_resource, WTF is going on.
16:13
I know.
How many fucking classes does that proposal add?
ALL OF THEM
@Cicada - It was mature at the time, mil-std (guys who resist change!) and checked everything, e.g., array bounds, etc. The Java of its day in many ways.
@BrettHale Oh. Makes sense then! :)
@Cicada Why is that ironic?
16:14
@R.MartinhoFernandes What the hell are those
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Because if you make a mistake it might kill someone.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Because of the very purpose of a missile?
@DeadMG Hmm, where is that link?
@Cicada To kill your enemies, not yourself.
16:15
@LightnessRacesinOrbit War is retarded
@CatPlusPlus I have no fucking idea. It appears they overengineered I-don't-even-know-what way out of proportion.
You don't want your missile circling back around and blowing up your 3 year old niece Cindy. "Oh, it's fine! We didn't bother putting error handling in, because it's a missile. It's supposed to do that. Just get over it."
user784668
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Why not?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Don't make a missile.
if I put my server in my router's DMZ, a portscan should report the server's port statuses and not the router's, right?
16:15
@Cicada Well, I wasn't going to.
@Cicada But in many places, if you don't make a missile, then somebody else will, and they will send it to you by airmail.
-1
A: Is there a proper 'ownership-in-a-package' for 'handles' available?

chicoThis is a rough sketch of the tool I ask, for the case of unique ownership. There's no need to peer inside the native/legacy handle type, no encapsulation violation, no ugly extra wrapping required. Works for almost all kinds of legacy handles, integral or pointer based. It provides one extra fe...

@rubenvb That's right
check out the assignment op.
@DeadMG Oh that.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That's what I said. War is retarded.
16:16
Hmm.
@Cicada No, you said "don't make a missile", which is retarded.
how does my router know to forward ssh directed to the public IP to the DMZ?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's actually the most sensible thing I've said all day.
this->~unique_handle();
Ahahaha
0
A: Is there a way to view the built-in documentation in C++?

Lightness Races in OrbitC++ itself doesn't have "built-in documentation" per se. It is a language, not a system. Sure, Python is "just a language" too, but it's also an interpreter and this interpreter has certain features that C++ compilers don't have. On Linux you may find manpages for what you need, because libstdc+...

@Cicada That's possible.
16:18
@rubenvb Using DMZ tells the router to assume all ports go to that internal IP
@rubenvb Well because it's a DMZ?
@CatPlusPlus ok. Makes sense. Doesn't it disrupt other normal web/FTP/... traffic?
@rubenvb What?
No it doesn't.
It provides one extra feature, beyond resource management, which is impersonation of the raw handle, I find it somewhat useful.
That's a very interesting way of saying "it has an implicit conversion"
16:19
However if you have other kinds of port forwarding, those take precedence over DMZ.
@CatPlusPlus Another PC outside the DMZ doing internet stuff.
Same goes for NAT.
@Cicada OK. Thanks.
Why do you have a server behind NAT anyway
it seems I was port scanning the router then.
16:19
It's a Pi apparently
(NAT ambiguities arise for incoming traffic)
I have my Pi in the DMZ, plugged into my modem/router.
Incoming as in not initiated from behind the NAT
That'll get redirected to the DMZ
auto &&gl_list_handle  = std::make_scoped_resource(glGenLists(1), [](GLuint list){ glDeleteLists(list, 1); });
16:20
Unless portforwarded elsewhere
This is exactly the wrong kind of use of a scope guard.
ok ok.
Good stuff.
&&gl_list_handle ?
@Abyx named rvalue ref ftw!
What we need is obviously bracket :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c :v
auto&& is magic reference
16:22
wat
whats that
well, I understand that T *x = ... looks like ... = *x. but what's &x or &&x ?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why?
@Cicada What
auto&&
It's auto with reference collapsing
Like in template arguments
16:23
i didnt know you could declare vars like that
It never ceases to amaze me the unreadable bullshit people keep coming up with, using auto and && and lambdas
only seen it as argument
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Because you have to provide the cleanup in every single place.
@R.MartinhoFernandes What do you mean?
auto t = make_something() is perfectly good
16:24
I know what auto&& is. I'm asking what the fuck &&x is
The same thing
@Abyx The address of the address of x.
trollololol
I'm going out. dammit strafing doesnt work
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The lambda that calls DeleteLists.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I doubt you can take address of r-value
16:25
@Abyx: && breaks the pointer-dereference/reference-addressof symmetry.
44 secs ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
trollololol
If you have make_scoped_resource you should write make_your_thing that's defined in terms of that
but it's okay because the symmetry was misleading and broken anyway
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Fatness Races in here.
Move semantics still don't come naturally to me. Compiler elides of temps / copies used to do the job almost as well, most of the time.
16:26
Move semantics are not just an optimisation.
@BrettHale Same here
Copy elision does not help you return a unique_ptr.
I have a "container" type of sorts that manages "attachment" data on disk, and implemented move semantics for it just fine without language support
No need for all this crap
Without language support you get auto_ptr
So yes there is need
No, without language support you just write a member function .swap and move on
16:28
You cannot return a member function.
Not transparent in places it could be
(Well, you can, but whatever)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Good, because I don't want to.
@R.MartinhoFernandes, I know, yet despite all the advantages, I'm still not at the point where it flows 'naturally' for me.
@R.MartinhoFernandes you can use an output parameter.
16:28
RVO took care of that case already
@Abyx yuck
(like RVO does)
Today's news in the Lounge: some people are opposed to change.
RVO only works if your type is copyable.
rvo is not rvalue ref.
16:29
It is
So far the only half-decent justification I've heard from people for auto is "but unique_ptr is not copyable"
that's it
nono
Are you one of those crazy people who think static typing is about spelling types out
Here's how I see it: people that claim they don't understand move semantics claim it is the same as RVO; people that claim they do understand it claim it isn't.
16:30
@CatPlusPlus no
I am done here.
@R.MartinhoFernandes and how do you know which people really understand it?
They are not you.
hint: not you
16:30
Also, I understand it but don't see the need for it. So your correlation is immediately busted
@R.MartinhoFernandes fu
now you're going to tell me that I don't understand it because I don't agree with you. which is nice
yet true
ufw enable vs ufw disable makes a difference of 7 more ports. This is shit.
@Cicada Your photo is too blue.
16:31
@rubenvb toldya, use iptables!
Ell
Ell
isn't RVO just a use case of move semantics?
RVO is a convenience
@Cicada ufw = iptables fronted. But You're absolutely right. Reading Arch wiki on iptables now. Bastard frontends.
So you don't have to sprinkle your code with .swap or whatever
It happens transparently
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Tomalak, what are you doing?
16:33
@rubenvb It'll be extremely funny when you end up with the exact same result after fighting with iptables for the whole day :v
@sehe nothing, why?
(Hint: look at active rules first)
@rubenvb It can only serve you. iptables is really handy (and magic)
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It seems to me you are making rather strange claims for someone I know to have sound c++ knowledge, including non-obvious language details
@AndreiTita - was building commercial code with SGI C++ compilers in '97 that weren't even supporting namespaces properly. As for change, I have seen plenty boyo.
16:34
And "magic" here means "arcane"
@sehe It seems to me you've completely forgotten what this chat room is all about.
maybe I should get my pi out of the DMZ first
"forgetton", nice
And obviously you know the best what this chat room is all about
Hey, I get to make up new words here. Vew other people get that privilege.
16:35
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Usual stuff rly. Don't get mad. Remember they have a difficult life (they use C++!)
What with you being here all the time for 2 years
@CatPlusPlus Yes!
Correct
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Okay. What's that? (inb4: trolling?)
This chat room is about trolling, lying, joking, posting images, berating each other, and occasionally mocking shitty SO answers. Now tell me I'm wrong.
You're wrong
16:35
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Why? It's what I said. However, we like to make a distinction between trolling and lying. Even lying as part of pestering annoying souls is not okay in my book
THERE I SAID IT WHAT DO I WIN
@Cicada A blue lens filter
This chat room is about loungin'
Already have one
You have to feel it~
16:36
another one!
but apparently, in order to gain any feel for what goes on here, one must be permanently stationed inside the lounge for two years
Arguing here is pointless
a) it's internet
someone told me that once
b) it's the lounge
you always end up being wrong
@Cicada speak for yourself!
ZING
I was speaking for myself, actually
16:38
0
Q: Design patterns - What am I using in this?

AndreI have implemented a ObjectManager class that serves only as a blueprint to be subclassed by other classes (actually, it is never instantiated) class ObjectManager { int last_inserted_uid; public: vector<int> affected; vector<table_str> serialized_data; ObjectMa...

I'm trying to figure out what design patterns I am using with this
That doesn't prevent me from coming back. Somehow.
ok, let's hope I don't lock myself out...
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lolol
@LightnessRacesinOrbit :lol:
16:38
@rubenvb Show your rules
user142019
What is a good resource to learn DirectX?
Oh gawd, managers.
@Zoidberg Which version (basically 9 or 11)
@Zoidberg rastertek
And just messing around.
user142019
@Cicada Latest.
16:38
Then nothing.
-1
Q: "const *int" or just "int" as function-arguments. What is the difference?

user1511417void test(const int* pInt) or void test(int pInt) I know that the first example makes pInt some kind of protected. But which solution provides more performance? Since both (the const pointer and the normal int) have to be registered in the memory.

@Zoidberg rastertek
There's no good Dx11 resource out there.
DX is terribly difficult to get into.
Indeed, but you can still get the basics done.
@Cicada have none yet. Following Arch wiki at the moment.
The thing is, AFAIU, the changes are realtime.
16:39
The books on the topic are very scarse (DX9 had a few, DX11 has almost 0)
Basically, in DX11, there's no fixed function anything for you.
And the people who are good at it don't write books
@Cicada Are you mad? DX9 has a shitload. o_O
Not as many as OpenGL but still
Compare that to C++ or other languages
I have a few DX9 books myself.
16:40
ObjectManager is one of the best managers I have seen so far.
It's a few
Just call it Manager and put everything in it
Oh yeah well cmon. DX9 is an API, of course it's not going to be bumpin' and partyin' with C++'s book level.
C++ needs partial classes for this
@ThePhD I have a DX9 book too, and it's rather nice, but completely outdated now.
16:40
Instead of include guards every file will start with partial class Manager {
And I can't seem to find a decent DX11 book
@Cicada The biggest changes are that tehre's no fixed function pipeline and most things in D3DX* are deprecated.
Yeah I know
By now I know
But when I wanted to learn, there was litteraly nothing
I'm glad I was fashionably late to the party then. :D
DX9 still had fixed-function? :v
16:42
@CatPlusPlus lol
@ThePhD Bleeding edge is terrible
@CatPlusPlus Almost entirely
DX11 is bleeding edge?
0
Q: two arrays point to the same information

MABI have two arrays after some changes in second array i want to have first array the same as second, is it possible not to copy the whole array one by one element but somehow by one command make first array point to elements of second array.

When you stab yourself with it
16:42
@R.MartinhoFernandes Now it's not. My point was "don't learn something when it's bleeding edge"
Stop misreading what I say
lol, I thought the same.
chick this link
OpenGL is not my friend, though.
=[
16:43
@Cicada Stop missaying what we read
4
When you suck, blame the others.
When you blame, suck the others.
Wait, that came out wrong.
Don't edit it. :D
Posting something tagged and should autoban you
3
@ThePhD You're saying this as if he didn't do it on purpose
Tsk tsk
I think I have badges on one of those tags.
16:46
Boo only silver in c++11
Don't show up.
Ha, actually, both.
AAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
His profile description changed
@CatPlusPlus Quality over quantity. I have 300+ votes than I need, just not enough answers.
"Ok ok, I know a few things about Unicode."
SO HE IS INDEED THE LEGENDARY UNICODE SLAYER.
16:47
Oh hey I have brown
@ThePhD, Unicode? There hasn't been unicode in these parts for a thousand years!
Here be bananas
@ThePhD Sigh, please don't.
16:48
fuck I locked myself out
But it's cool to imagine the robot as a legendary unicode slayer. :c
@rubenvb Ahahaha
godsdammit
@rubenvb I told you, post your rules so we can check. sigh
16:48
I told you to check the active rules that ufw created first
I added a port 22 allow thing
@Cicada High five
@rubenvb You should have set up a cronjob to open everything back again after a while, just in case.
@R.MartinhoFernandes right
@rubenvb Now we'll laugh at you forever
16:49
@R.MartinhoFernandes svn blame?
is iptables persistent on reboot?
that's good.
@melak47 What kind fo autodesk file is that?
wait, it's not?
16:50
Unless you dumped it to a script that's loaded on boot
@melak47 What about it?
@ThePhD .max
Oooh.
I should learn to read .max and .3ds files.
Yeah what about it
16:50
I just ran iptables commands, so unless I corrupted my SD card by pulling the plug everything should be fine
it has an 8KB header with this kinda crap in it
why the fuck
It could be padding
Don't even try
Cool, the alphabet.
These formats are fucked up
16:51
It could be something
y-umlauts are 0xFFs in Latin-1.
Yeah those are definitely padding
fuck
That looks like a state dump of my mind right now.
I'm really hungry
16:51
Alphabet who knows
It's trying to tell you that the alphabet is an important cornerstone of that binary state.
it could be important data
why pad the beginning of the file with 8 KB of useless data? ._.
err, potentially important data.
Ell
Ell
I didn't know pdf was an open standard o.O
Reserved bytes
16:52
@Cicada "One in five Americans don't understand the alphabet."
@Ell It is???
hmm is it just me? I haven't thought about "design patterns" in my code for years. I just... design and write code. I don't give a fuck whether some nincompoop with long hair and a book deal has a name for code that looks a bit similar
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No, it's not just you.
@Ell The EU or somebody like that kicked Adobe in the balls until they opened it.
And padding could be because it's made of fixed-size blocks or something
16:52
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah, that's exactly what design patterns are. Stuff you reuse without actually noticing.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit We're all like that.
While Adobe Systems made the PDF specification available free of charge in 1993, PDF remained a proprietary format, controlled by Adobe, until it was officially released as an open standard on July 1, 2008, and published by the International Organization for Standardization as ISO 32000-1:2008.
@Ell Since 2008, IIRC. My boss is in the committee :P
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's not just you
Portable Document Format (PDF) is a file format used to represent documents in a manner independent of application software, hardware, and operating systems. Each PDF file encapsulates a complete description of a fixed-layout flat document, including the text, fonts, graphics, and other information needed to display it. {{citation | url = http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2038 | first = Charles | last = Geschke | publisher = The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania | title = Dri
Ell
Ell
16:53
@Cicada since July 1 apparently
yeah 2008
@CatPlusPlus Yeah but that's strange to have a whopping 8KB of it.
@Cicada yep
@DeadMG Okay good. Just checking.
@ThePhD Why?
Maybe it's a comment block?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit - language hijacked by people who don't write or maintain real world code bases.
16:53
4kB blocks are less strange?
The main usecase of design patterns is teaching them.
I keep coming across people desperate to learn what design pattern they are using
@LightnessRacesinOrbit These people suck, like most of the IT industry I'm afraid.
They're dumb and bad and exposed to education
I dunno. 8KB of just garbage in a file seems weird, when most binary files try to minimize the amount of crap that goes into them.
16:54
Well I know that
Ell
Ell
I also didn't know ISO dealt in swiss franks xD
@ThePhD heh, no. people don't care about format efficiency nowadays
@Cicada =[ Brings a tear to me eye.
they do if you want to pay them in it.
@Ell - that's just Nazi gold. Yeah, I went there.
16:55
0
Q: Writing c++ without new and delete keyword? Best approach?

bqueninI'm trying to write c++ code without using the keywords new and delete. First, is it a good practice or not ? One of the side effects of coding like this is that I can't rely on nullptrfor empty values. For instance: std::array<std::array<fb::Block *, Panel::Y>, Panel::X> blocks;...

@Cicada closevote not constructive :O
Lol, 3 people from the lounge just went in there to go say stuff.
they sure have a lot of this "important data"...
@Doorknob not mine
I know
16:56
Padding
@melak47 actually, it's probably reserved
@melak47 Wha11111111111111111111111t is th1111111111111111111111at?
Lol That's some serious padding.
MSVC I think uses "THISISPADDING" to pad things :v
@melak47 That looks like just unused bits, so yeah, padding.
16:57
You said it was .max ?
Why would they use so much padding?
@ThePhD yes
By that I mean it's reserved so that you don't have to move stuff around when you want to write to it. If that makes sense.
PAPADDINGXXPADDINGPADDINGX
but after this there is more padding with nulls...
16:58
@Doorknob Fixed-size block file format
@CatPlusPlus most probably
3ds Max saves scenes to a proprietary binary format with the extension .MAX. The specification of the format is not public. The content of the file is heavily dependent on the plug-in data used to build the scene, thus parsing the file outside of 3ds Max makes little sense (although certain data fragments can be extracted).
Important ^
Yeah we've seen that
Isn't like, .3ds easier to parse?
Why're you trying to parse .max anyhow?
yes
I'm not
16:59
.obj is fuckeasy
That's almost as insane as trying to parse .mb files
mb = multibyte?
@Cicada It also lends itself naturally to indexing

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