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2:03 AM
off to bread, see you
user142019
Bye
user142019
@CatPlusPlus how did you install GHC on Windows? Haskell Platform?
user142019
Do you have cabal-dev installed?
user142019
2:05 AM
I never got it to install except when I was lucky in Arch Linux.
user142019
Because of dependency conflicts.
user142019
ohlol
user142019
2:20 AM
I'm bored.
What makes C++ death for most people?
Is it the pointers, or simply the insanity of C++'s property of being lowlevel?
@Whippet Insistence on using obsolete programming techniques/refusal to write decent code.
Jerry, let's rephrase this.
It has a steep learning curve.
Though it's an opinion, yet, it's fact based
WHAT makes C++ so difficult to learn for EVERYONE? It is THE most difficult (POPULAR) language to learn.
user142019
There are way too many bad resources to learn C++ from and everybody links to those.
Not really
It's the worst taught language
Possibly
Pointers are mostly irrelevant
2:26 AM
Cat, that's beside the point, it's difficult even well taught.
user142019
The basics of C++ are not very difficult.
Yet, it kills most people.
Most people are dumb
It's not that difficult
Yes, but the basics are that.. basics.
Cat, for you.
user142019
It's when you encouter things like SFINAE and ADL and weird rules when it becomes "difficult". :P
2:27 AM
I taught C++ from scratch
People coming from high-level languages die.
user142019
C++ is bad anyway.
Because learning materials are bad
Taught, or learned?
@Whippet I'll rephrase: the vast majority comes from teaching and learning the wrong things in the wrong ways. Very little of it is inherent to the language.
2:28 AM
Both really
user142019
If you learn C++ from good resources then it's doable.
Modern C++ is not low level at all
user1357851
But it makes it much easier to learn other languages if you know C++ well
Middle level at best, and only if you insist on it being so
@Whippet That's one of the basic problems right there: people have been told it's not a high-level language, so they refuse to use it that way, even though it can be.
user142019
2:28 AM
Aka not cplusplus.com or Herbert Schildt. Which are terrible.
user1357851
most OOP are connected anyways ... share the same principles
It's much easier to learn any language when you already know another language
Jerry, Assembler is to (WRITE THIS TO A LINE, "HELLO", THEN MAKE A NEW LINE) as C++ is to "print(#@^%%&$#$@&^$#%^main()"
At least within the same paradigms
@Whippet What
@Telkitty What
user142019
@Whippet What
2:29 AM
Say I made a high level language
Literally, ENGLISH.
you made a high level language
user142019
std::cout << "HELLO\n";
user142019
Much more readable.
Yes, English is very relevant
(English is not a high-level language)
user142019
Or even better:
user142019
2:30 AM
putStrLn "HELLO"
Zoi, that right there.. I would barely know that's a print statement
user142019
That's because you're a noob.
That's not relevant to the level of the language
That's your preconceptions
The cat has converted you
@Zoidberg, I KNOW that's a print statement
user142019
2:31 AM
Well then what's the problem.
user142019
(Apart from the fact you're using C++.)
I can pick any part of any language and if you don't know it, you might be surprised
@Zoidberg I'm saying from a POV from someone who just opened a source file and is used to .NET
Especially if it's a different paradigm
You can't hope to fully understand a language because you know some other language
You need at least a) experience with different ones b) intuition for this
user142019
@Whippet Well when I read .NET code I'm also confused as hell because of the usual IoC/DI/abstract classes/singleton/whatever crap.
2:32 AM
And know to not assume things
`std::cout << "Hello World!" << std::endl;`
versus:
`print("Hello World!");`
versus:
`HAI COMPILER, PLS PRINT THIS ON THE COMMAND LINE PLS: "Hello World"`
And know how to learn a new language quickly
Yeah you're not listening at all
I think "print("Hello World")" is MUCH easier to understand.
You're all speaking at once
One, let me bring this up rephrased so I can follow this
user142019
2:33 AM
print yes I really see paper coming out of my printer.
user142019
You are used to print.
"std::cout" Oh snap, IT IZ VIRUZ.
user142019
Doesn't mean one or the other is better or whatever.
Well if you're an idiot and not a programmer then I guess you're shit out of luck learning C++ on the go sorry
user142019
Most programmers are idiots.
2:34 AM
C++ is complex, in a way that what would take several lines of code in other languages takes about twice, or at least more than, several lines.
Is Java complex?
user142019
Wat.
Java is higher-level.
user142019
Java is shit and Java doesn't matter and nobody should give a shit about it.
And yet it takes much more Java code than C++ code for many things
user1357851
2:35 AM
My reputation, it says my percentage as a trusted user is: 0%
Hint: what you're talking about is expressivity of the language, and it's not related to complexity at all
Cat, I'd like to test you on this.
(Also bullshit when it comes to C++)
Write a program that writes letters backwards
Sentences*
What letters
What sentences
2:36 AM
In the least amount of code you can.
Okay, Java vs C++.
I want you to write a program that prints out sentences backwards.
Write it in C++ in the least amount of code.
I'll do the same, but in Java.
Rules:
std::vector<std::string> foo;
std::copy(std::istream_iterator<std::string>(std::cin), std::istream_iterator<std::string>(), std::back_inserter(foo));
std::copy(foo.rbegin(), foo.rend(), std::ostream_iterator<std::string>(std::cout));
It has to accept input.
The end
Notice how you haven't even finished talking
user142019
s <- unwords . reverse . words <$> readLn
putStrLn s
I can't even begin to understand that.
2:37 AM
That's your problem
I don't even want to start writing Java for this because it'll be at least thrice as long
that was fast
Because Java is not expressive at all
And level has nothing to do with it
(Although C++ is not much lower level than Java)
So, I finished Darksiders. It was fun, but not memorable.
I can write perfectly idiomatic Haskell code and you won't understand it either, because you probably neither know Haskell nor functional programming
user142019
DO IT FAGGOT
2:39 AM
And Haskell is lightyears ahead both C++ and Java when it comes to being high-level
And seriously what's the point because I still have no fucking clue
user142019
Haskell is beautiful.
Does that means it's lightyears ahead both C++ and Java when it comes to wanking?
fmap fmap fmap
user142019
Haskell wankery > template wankery.
Template Haskell wankery!
(Yes it's a thing)
2:40 AM
@CatPlusPlus TMP which generates haskell?
user142019
I know.
Because I only see Haskell for "cool" things, not for actual problem solving. And I write code to solve problems. Problems related to games. So, yeah, I think I'm simply not in Haskell's target audience.
@Collin Haskell code that runs during compilation and outputs ASTs, basically
Which are then used in further compilation
Alright, C++ trumps Java in simple programs...
user142019
And also in large and complex programs.
2:41 AM
:lol:
@Whippet Define "simple".
user142019
Because Java is extremely shitty and C++ is less extremely shitty.
Java code size grows about exponentially
String manipulation
2:41 AM
Perl is best for that, I think.
user142019
String manipulation in Java haha.
user142019
Use Perl already. Or Haskell.
@Zoidberg You're ego is bigger than your dream penis, I didn't ask for your opinion.
Hey RegexManagerFactoryBuilderFactory is very easy to use
@CatPlusPlus Java is simple and straightforward to write, there's nothing exciting about it, but the ratio of typing to functionality is ridiculously large
2:42 AM
@Collin It's not expressive, is what I've been trying to say for the last 30 minutes
Even by saying "it's not expressive" but apparently that's not enough vOv
user142019
I don't have a dream penis since I don't need a dream penis.
@CatPlusPlus In far fewer words than I said it, yes.
user142019
Anyhow
2:43 AM
@Zoidberg Well, that proves how small your penis is.. Anyway,
I still have no idea what this discussion is about
user142019
Yes 8" is really small. Anyhow
Again Java vs C++ something or whatever I don't know
user142019
I don't see how string manipulation would be any better in Java than in C++.
wat linux TF2 takes 10GB of space? WTF
2:43 AM
@Mysticial I will not accept this kind of foul language here :P
@Zoidberg Like I said that's your dream penis.
TF2 takes 10GB of space
Anyway
BRB
@Collin It also takes 10 GB on Windows.
user142019
And I don't see how my penis is related to Java.
user142019
2:44 AM
@Whippet nah better be gone forever.
user142019
inb4 brown list + plonk
What is so big?
(Wait, no, it takes 7)
@Collin His dream penis.
2:44 AM
@Collin Assets.
Can we stop talking about Zoidberg's penis jesus
4
user142019
lol
Serious high res assets I guess
@Collin Textures, models, animations, sounds, ...
user1357851
Haskell is as beauty as a troll in wig
user1357851
2:45 AM
probably slightly less
user142019
Whippet, United States
256 9
user142019
Those tags. What a surprise.
@Collin Have you got 11GB drive or what
user142019
2:46 AM
user142019
Three worst languages ever invented.
user142019
In order, even.
@Collin Bethesday optimized the shit out of their assets so they would a) load quickly b) take a small amount of space.
@CatPlusPlus Only 80 on my laptop :( I guess I haven't been paying attention to install sizes of things
@Zoidberg I wouldn't call "html" a language.
2:47 AM
That is not true of all games
And PHP is far worse than Java.
It's a language
user142019
@EtiennedeMartel It's a document structure language!
You're just hating.
user142019
HTML stands for HyperText Document Structure Language, obviously.
2:48 AM
Java PTSD
@Borgleader That's pretty standard. At Ubisoft, they called that "fast load".
user142019
@EtiennedeMartel muh
Java PTSD is where ManagerFactorys come from
user142019
I disagree.
user142019
What is PTSD?
2:48 AM
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
user142019
Posttraumatic stress disorder?
user142019
Oh. :P
@Zoidberg Hmm. Did you write more Java than PHP in your life?
user142019
@EtiennedeMartel nope, or maybe yes. I think about equally much.
Because perhaps you did not experience the full horror of PHP.
2:49 AM
@EtiennedeMartel I'm just saying not all games do it or at least not as well.
Did you write any PHP :v
Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a severe anxiety disorder that can develop after exposure to any event that results in psychological trauma. Diagnostic symptoms for PTSD include re-experiencing the original trauma(s) through flashbacks or nightmares, avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma, and increased arousal—such as difficulty falling or staying asleep, anger, and hypervigilance. Formal diagnostic criteria (both DSM-IV-TR and ICD-10) require that the symptoms last more than one month and cause significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas o...
PHP was the first language I actually used.
user142019
@CatPlusPlus quite a lot.
user142019
@EtiennedeMartel same. :3
2:49 AM
@EtiennedeMartel TI BASIC
I used Pascal first
My first was Javascript, then PHP :V
user142019
I wrote WordPress themes and plug-ins in PHP and I liked it! XD
user142019
I didn't know any better! Please don't kill me!
2:50 AM
I also liked PHP at first.
Then I discovered C++.
Then Java.
I wrote a template engine in PHP :lol:
user142019
I discovered Ruby after PHP. :v
Two people even used it
I did a lot of Javascript before it was hipster.
user142019
2:50 AM
Ruby on Rails was much easier to use so I abandoned PHP. xD
@Nican You mean, before people started touting it as "the assembly of the Web"?
user142019
s/Javascript/JavaScript/ oh God "Javascript" looks so fugly.
user142019
Or "Java script" or "Java Script".
@EtiennedeMartel Basically.
2:51 AM
@Zoidberg Just say JS.
user142019
I say CoffeeScript! \o/
@Zoidberg It's not two words
user142019
@CatPlusPlus I know, that's why it's wrong.
user142019
But I see it often enough.
@Nican Like, when
2:52 AM
Still, Java has some issues. It's two biggest problems are 1) it's lacking several features because the JCP doesn't give a shit and 2) it's got some of the worse programmers around
But aside from that, it's okay.
user142019
> some
"So okay it's average".
Nah it's below average
Also security updates every 12 seconds
PHP, on the other hand, is a stinking pile of shit from start to finish.
user142019
2:53 AM
I enjoy writing PHP more than I enjoy writing Java. Or should I say, I suffer less from ~.
user142019
So IMO PHP > Java.
user142019
Java is so overly verbose and annoying as fuck. PHP is at least hilarious.
PHP is bit more expressive than Java
But OTOH it has a lot more quirks and corner cases
PHP will blow up in your face.
I have to fight the language.
2:53 AM
They're both bad and let's leave it at that
Java, with the right tools, is at least bearable.
user142019
Nah.
That tool is called "bottle of whiskey"
No, Eclipse.
And vodka.
Make it two bottles
2:54 AM
My favorite description of JS: tinyurl.com/3z9lk7t
user142019
PHP is also doable if you know the corner-cases and parser bugs and you use an IDE that knows all functions and has decent auto-completion.
Assembly is also doable when something else writes code for you
@Zoidberg I shouldn't have to compensate for the stupidity of the language designers.
As I generally say, Java was cool in 1995.
PHP never was.
user142019
I installed Java today and it asked me to install Ask toolbar.
user142019
What a bunch of idiots at Oracle.
2:55 AM
Yeah, that's Oracle.
Anyway, C#.
C# is coooool.
user142019
C# is nice.
But only with R#.
user142019
C# is Java++.
C# is Java done right (or at least better)
I'm indifferent to C#
2:57 AM
You should take a look at it.
Although, since you seem to like Haskell a lot, I don't think it'll be your cup of tea.
It still has the heavy syntax
Access modifiers on every method hurr
It's getting less and less verbose with each version as they add more syntactic sugar.
hello my children
2:57 AM
But it's still hard to use without tools.
Which is an issue IMO.
user142019
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'm an orphan and you lose.
Still, I recognize the commercial value of C#.
You write stuff really fast with it.
2:58 AM
if intellisense or resharper didn't exist would anyone use C#?
People use C++
@Rapptz Without R#, sure, because not everyone use it.
There's some people with VAX for C#. I shudder when I think about it.
And IS for C++ works better when it's off
One of my colleagues uses it. Although he's a bit crazy in the head, so that explains it.
@Zoidberg I merely wanted you to think that you were an orphan, when I deposited you on that doorstep as a newborn baby, 12 years ago.

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