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user1804599
8:00 AM
@TonyTheLion It rejects too many correct programs.
 
user1804599
I.e. it's annoying.
 
is that due to an incomplete compiler?
 
@TonyTheLion No it's not bad
Some concepts are really neat
Too bad it's a web programming language
 
user1804599
@Cauterite No, due to the type system.
 
@LucDanton I can hear suttibu kurabunikku from here
 
8:03 AM
i would probably be using rust if D didn't exist
 
You like D?
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva I can see it coming
 
i love it!
 
@sehe For me it is the dumb. Sleeping four hours turns me into a drooler.
 
@ScarletAmaranth literally
> ScyllaDB: Cassandra Rewritten In C++ (claims to be up to 10x faster)
lol
> and jaw dropping low latency
get out
 
user1804599
8:12 AM
but is it correct
 
oh wow pretty solid engineering team
 
> The Apache Cassandra database is the right choice when you need scalability and high availability without compromising performance. Linear scalability and proven fault-tolerance on commodity hardware or cloud infrastructure make it the perfect platform for mission-critical data.
lol, after reading apache project descriptions you still don't know what it is
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva osv team
 
And KVM
Good news everyone Gitlab 8.1 comes with a brand new UI design! Minor features such as reducing memory usage and actually working are not part of that release.
 
Yay, pushed and pulled vs github from work.
No idea what I did to fix it.
 
8:27 AM
:V much excitement
 
I just did some C++ and Python tests prior to an interview.
The Python test was too simple: 20 basic questions in 30 minutes. I guess they assumed Python 2.7.
The "easy" C++ test was more like C with tricky question.
 
Typical.
 
The "intermediate" C++ test was like 20 minutes for 20 questions with dumb questions about, like, which varibales are still in scope in the handler block of a function try-block.
Also, there were errors in the test and I'm pretty sure some of my answers will be considered wrong because of that.
 
function try-block? you mean the weird syntax?
 
Yep. The one nobody ever uses.
 
8:32 AM
wow, they asked about that in an interview
 
that's dumb
 
Haha, I've got 8/15 for the easy C++ test and 7/20 for the intermediate one. That's still better than 93% of the people who passed the tests.
 
@Morwenn I use it.
 
You suck.
 
8:34 AM
I use it because it makes people mad.
 
you madman
 
Oh, sorry, I got 11/15 and 14/20, the other ones were the average of everybody ever passng the test.
 
Still applying in Brittany? Are there C++ companies there with code interviews? :o
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked they're awesome
 
8:36 AM
18/20 for the Python test, and it only took me 10 minutes to complete it, against almost 20 minutes for the intermediate C++ one. Note that there were only 20 minutes for the C++ test against 30 for the Python one (also called "intermediate").
 
your opinion doesn't count :P
 
user1804599
also weird and similar is D contract syntax
 
user1804599
void f()
in {
    ...
} out (x) {
    ...
} body {
    ...
}
 
Note that the average note for the intermediate C++ test is 7/20 while the average note for the intermediate Python test is 16/20.
 
@sehe say, do you mind actually reminding me of that thing?
 
8:37 AM
@elyse looks like a marble game to me
 
user1804599
I think you can even write this:
 
user1804599
void f()
body { ... }
 
user1804599
yeah you can :P
 
@safe pure nothrow invariant() { ... };
 
user1804599
Parentheses after invariant are no longer needed.
 
8:38 AM
yeah, thank god :D
 
What I hate about C and C++ tests is that they tend to cover obscure points, often with UB, and generaly things that you'd never sanely write anyway.
 
user1804599
What I have about C and C++ is everything.
 
Navigate to Decompiled sources also works all the sudden. No idea what is going on but it is very pleasant.
Today is the day when things just works.
Hope it spills over to you guys.
 
:/ nope, 'fraid things just don't work for me today
 
One of the questions that seemed to be wrong all the way.
 
user1804599
8:51 AM
MVP doesn't compile, see -Werror.
 
If I assumed -Werror then many questions were lacking the answer "does not compile".
I don't know whether « valid » meant « not ill-formed », « compiles » or « makes sense » but then again nothing really made sense...
 
Is anyone here a C++ expert? If so, please check this: stackoverflow.com/questions/32735148/…
 
user1804599
No. Nobody here is a C++ expert.
 
I suppose you are "good enough"? Still better than me.
 
9:01 AM
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Only SSIIs, but there's an opportunity for a C++/Python job, I'm rather interested :)
 
user1804599
What is an SSII?
 
@Morwenn You're telling me an SSII has a code interview? You must lie.
 
user1804599
Schutzstaffel Intellectual Interest?
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva No, they have tests that they don't uderstand and randomly send to people by mail before job interviews.
 
user1804599
> société de services en ingénierie informatique
 
9:03 AM
^^ That
 
@orlp surrrre
 
@Morwenn Oh I had that once
 
user1804599
société de services en lingerie informatique
 
@user673679 that was a surprise to me too. Anyhoops, I learned
 
The guys told me during the real interview "well, that's embarassing, but you scored better than our CTO"
okay.jpeg
 
9:05 AM
@thecoshman not at all
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Awesome :D
 
@Morwenn So you're still staying in glorious Brittany
 
user1804599
why don't they make T x(); parse as variable definition if within function bodies?
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva My family, my friends and my band are in Brittany. I've got no reason to leave.
 
user1804599
do people actually depend on it parsing as a function declaration?
 
9:06 AM
Hi Guys I have little confusion about programming can i ask?
 
user1804599
@AlexCerry Sure, go ahead.
 
@elyse That would be fun.
 
@AlexCerry Sure
 
@Morwenn I understand. I will come back, eventually.
 
@elyse Sir, In mfc dll i define function like this DllExport void DLL_CALLCONV FileUpdate(char * a, char * b); with pointer char*
 
9:07 AM
@AlexCerry Yes I'll be glad to do your needful
 
user1804599
I'm not a sir, sorry.
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Where are you these days? :p
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I read tidbits of your talk with Alex and I'm so dissapointed
 
@AlexCerry It's DLL_MSEXCEL2014, not DLL_CALLCONV
 
You gave up so easily
 
9:07 AM
@Morwenn Hong Kong
 
Gave up on what?
 
But in c# i am able to access the function like public static extern unsafe void FileUpdate(string g_szServerMainXmlFilePath, string g_szLocalMainXmlFilePath); with parameter string.
Why c++ give permission to c# to access char* parameter function in string?
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Oh right, I had forgotten but you mentioned it a few days ago. That must be quite different.
 
9:08 AM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ learning Haskell enough to make it a practical tool
 
@AlexCerry What?
 
All your statements about Monad stacks, purity and immutability only showcase your inexperience, not the language shortcomings FYI
 
Access what? How?
 
In mfc dll i define function like this DllExport void DLL_CALLCONV FileUpdate(char * a, char * b); with pointer char*
But in c# i am able to access the function like public static extern unsafe void FileUpdate(string g_szServerMainXmlFilePath, string g_szLocalMainXmlFilePath); with parameter string.
Why c++ give permission to c# to access char* parameter function in string?
 
Anyway I'm so late for work and I have a hangover
 
user1804599
9:10 AM
You already said that. Stop repeating yourself, you fool.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ function with string parameter.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ But actually the parameter is char*.
 
What's string?
 
user1804599
That's because C# automatically turns string objects into char* values before calling the function.
 
user1804599
That's how P/Invoke works.
 
user1804599
9:11 AM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Synonym for System.String.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Right
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ yes ths parameter in c++ mfc dll is char* but in c# the parameter data type is string without error why?
 
2 mins ago, by elyse
That's because C# automatically turns string objects into char* values before calling the function.
hello do you even eyes
 
user1804599
also
 
user1804599
9:14 AM
click that
 
@elyse if i want to do this manually then how?
 
2015: cicada expecting noobs to read
 
@AlexCerry we're not a helpdesk, please ask your question on Stack Overflow
 
user1804599
then turn the string into a char array, use a fixed statement to get a pointer to the first element, then pass that
 
Hell on wheels.
My life.
 
9:16 AM
Manowar?
 
user1804599
or maybe string has a method returning char* dunno
 
user1804599
RTFM
 
@AlexM. :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz I still have hope
 
9:17 AM
@Morwenn lol. No. My life. :D
 
Manowar <3
 
Meh, it looks like something I would never listen to willingly.
 
Maybe your taste in music just sucks :P
 
A bit sad that I actually remember the URL for this room.
 
@elyse IRTA lmfgtfy
 
@BartekBanachewicz Interesting.
 
@Morwenn oh? what's this?
oh, nothing exciting
 
@thecoshman The most epic band in the whole World.
 
@Morwenn awesome as they are, maybe not the most epic...
still, now I have to listen to them :D
 
9:29 AM
Listen to Warriors of the World United.
 
oh, but Candlemass were right there, just waiting for my press play
@Morwenn oh I've listened to them plenty :D
 
Oh.
 
@Morwenn <3
 
♥ :3
 
9:34 AM
Sometimes I picture :3 as a man with a huge ass mustache
 
@hughfdjackson Consider an advanced piece of machinery. Not everyone can operate it, but in good hands they are very useful. Point stands.
I think this is something that makes surprising amount of sense for my usual ramblings
what's up
 
is this a response to another moron saying "this code is too complicated"
 
he's not a moron
but it was a reply to this
@bananu7 Don't get me wrong, I love it and think people should learn it. But I understand why people expect PLs to be designed for them.
 
@BartekBanachewicz not really vOv
 
@thecoshman that's an amazing rebuttal
you gonna go far kid
try politics
 
9:43 AM
AWESOME. My average since start (march 2011) is 3.15356 answers per day (1667 days). I call it close enough to π :)
 
user1804599
π = 4
 
user1804599
user image
3
 
How to compute pi with Manhattan distance.
 
@Morwenn How about pi with mazda distance?
 
9:49 AM
I've answered a question in recommending use of promises/futures
then I've realized C++ doesn't have monads
 
no, no, you didnt "just" realize this =/
 
I wanted to expand the answer with stuff like "you can push the future into processing and combine it and move into functions"
but lol nope.
@Borgleader It's easy to forget
monads are just so... primitive? low-level? It's like saying a language doesn't have floating-point numbers
 
g2g to work now, ttyl
 
user1804599
@sehe do you know of anything like dot/Graphviz except for Venn diagrams instead of graphs?
 
@BartekBanachewicz if I wanted to go down the political route, I'd neither agree with or disagree with anything and/or everything you did or did not say.
 
user1804599
We almost used Haskell in production.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Glad to have you back
 
user1804599
Ended up being Elixir instead due to the lack of gen_event in Haskell.
 
Elixir is pretty cool.
 
user1804599
gen_event is very tricky to get right.
 
9:58 AM
> “We wanted to abstract away from concurrency,”
heh
> “Haskell is like a programming language from an alternate future that is never going to happen,” he says. “It solves all these problems it promises to solve. But it’s so different that there is no chance it will become common.”
heh
TLDR of the article is that "Go and Rust win because they're easier to learn"
 
user1804599
heheh
 
user1804599
Go is nice.
 
user1804599
It's a good DSL for concurrent applications.
 
I can kinda imagine the construction workers working with shovels because noone can bother to learn how to operate an excavator
because the excavators have a big learning curve you see.
 
user1804599
Nice.
 
user1804599
10:04 AM
Sometimes shovels do the job better.
 
user1804599
For example in small areas or if excavators are unavailable or too expensive.
 
yeah I'm past thinking that haskell is a perfect choice for every project
 
user1804599
are excavators considered cars
 
user1804599
because then this is a car analogy
 
10:05 AM
not in Poland
 
@BartekBanachewicz I can make up stories too
 
it would be fun if that was made up I suppose
 
@BartekBanachewicz no point having the perfect language if no one is going to use it
 
hm conduit seems cool
@thecoshman How many people do need to use it in order to have a point of having it?
 
@BartekBanachewicz ¬_¬ who are you?
 
10:08 AM
> conduit allows you to deal with large- and possibly infinite- streams of data in constant memory. Chunks of data are dealt with one piece at a time instead of needing to read in the entire body at once.
this is interesting
 
@BartekBanachewicz vOv critical mass is a volatile thing
 
why do you think it has to be "critical" at all?
look at the critical mass of ever-popular javascript
look how fucking bad the documentation for node libraries is
a thousand times more active developers and they're still catching up with haskell
@CatPlusPlus multiplayer networking layer
I know it sounds odd at first
but before I dismiss it as unfeasible, I want to know everything I should
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think you just failed at understanding the term 'critical mass'
 
yeah. I have no idea what it means WRT PL communities
 
... you need to reach a 'critical mass' before a language will become common and used plenty. But a language will not build (much) momentum until it is common and used plenty.
the terms is applied the same as it is to everything else it is applied to
 
10:18 AM
what's "common"
 
fuck it, plonk
2
 
lmao
star for future hilarity
 
good lord! that was half the transcript that I just cleaned up
 
 
10:39 AM
I had an insane dream last night.
There were shitloads of stars being given in the lounge. Every message had at least three of 'em.
I simply posted "SHUT UP" and got 42(!) stars instantly.
 
Is there any alternative to templates? they're pretty hard to read. — Lukkio 2 mins ago
 
SHUT UP
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's not pretty straightforward.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes can it be made simpler?
 
enable_if_t
also you can get rid of the typename with a using EnableIf = ...
or something
 
10:48 AM
I've linked the guy to lounge tips in comments
tbh though all those EnableIf, Invoke, All, Conditional and whatnot should be standard
enable_if_t is a joke
it's a straight-up "we fucked up and we're patching the language with duct tape"
next up in C++17: enable_if_v_t<T> equivalent to enable_if_t<T::value>
 
Does publishing on nuget publish symbols on some symbol server if a .symbols.nupkg is included?
 
Well, it's still better to have it than not to have it.
 
@Morwenn I don't think so
having two versions of the same function, but one less broken is an invitation to multiple solutions and misunderstandings and confusion
now you need per-codebase policies of "do we use _t or not"
 
I need help with const refs
 
const &
:)
 
10:52 AM
try bribing the refs
 
(removed)
 
0
Q: Is there a sequence point between return and expression in return statement?

Angelus MortisHere is the quote from standard : The second context is when a reference is bound to a temporary. The temporary to which the reference is bound or the temporary that is the complete object to a subobject of which the temporary is bound persists for the lifetime of the reference except a...

 
there are no sequence points since C++11
neeeext
 
lemme learn c++03 first xD
anyways though I got the answer, yet events are not clear to me
 
10:53 AM
@AngelusMortis why not C++98
why not pre-standard C++ while we're at it
C++14 is the current standard and if you're learning the language, you should learn that one first and foremost
 
@BartekBanachewicz cuz i need mental friction mate, why things were introduced in c++11 which were not working etc in c++03
why what etc
 
that's hardly necessary for writing C++ programs
 
anyways i am not here argument here
can anyone help
 
and the answer to that is "because the language evolves" pretty much all the time
 
10:57 AM
will you stop with your language lawyering please. Help me with question if you want to
 
said the guy who asked a language-lawyer question
 
you started it, you trolling bell!!
 
@BartekBanachewicz The only reasonable solution is to always use enable_if_t and never enable_if alone. Of course it'd be better if enable_if_t was actually named enable_if, but we don't have a time machine.
 
6 mins ago, by Angelus Mortis
I need help with const refs
whistles
 
I thought once that it would be interesting to rewrite parts of the standard library as if we had a time machine, but it's too much work.
 
10:58 AM
then help with it, rather taking it to another direction
 
@Morwenn and then you have to update all of the codebases to the new one
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you alive?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes. This is what I did.
 
were those company codebases with multiple devs or just hobby stuff?
 
My hobby stuff of course. I have zero professional experience with C++.
 
11:01 AM
:D keep it that way
@Andy 8 hours in, bug still there. halp. Also I snapped at boss who came in giddy "IS IT FIXED YET?????"
 
@AlexM. in general, yeah. I don't like backticks used instead of flip, but otherwise this is the most basic subset of haskell. As in, everyone writing haskell should be able to read this, because it doesn't introduce any library or anything like that. In practice, though, the solutions will be often tailored to a particular style of the code, like monadic, lens, etc. - but this solution can be used in any code
what's important here is that the code might seem "cryptic" because it's short and does a lot. In fact, people tend to think that it's natural that longer code takes more time to understand, and shorter takes less. In Haskell, the solutions can be very concise, and the time needed to understand them depends on the complexity, not length.
 
That's in fact unique to Haskell.
 
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not
 
also I miss potato empires
 
11:12 AM
I miss potato empires, pre-haskell stage.
 
IDGI, tbh. I mean, we started the backend and frontend at the same time basically
it had haskell in the backend since day 0
and then you suddenly said that "omg I didn't want to use haskell so I'm dropping the js client"
 
amazingly, no
Allthough there is https://developers.google.com/chart/image/docs/gallery/venn_charts
 
at least that's how it looked from my end @AnastasiyaAsadullayeva
> Warning: This API is deprecated. Please use the actively maintained Google Charts API instead.
 
user1804599
@sehe kinda limited.
 
user1804599
Alright, I have a new project.
 
11:20 AM
Should be easy. Pango/Cairo canvas. Python/Haskell/whatever bindings. :)
 
@elyse What is
@sehe wow that UI is fugly
 
@BartekBanachewicz how can I rewrite or understand this code in C? gist.github.com/anonymous/c5d21d010a429ad46138
 
@edition by understanding it in Haskell first?
what's not clear, exactly?
let creates some helper-variables
t is length of the list, y is 1/t...
 
I don't fully understand import Data.Complex (Complex((:+)))
in terms of the syntax
 
The :+) is a happy man, the rest is useless
 
11:23 AM
what happened to his nose?
 
@edition Oh i can see how that can be confusing. It's an import of a data constructor (:+) for the type Complex from the module Complex
now.
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva I would never notice
 
I always confuse type and data constructors, sorry
 
is this a function definition for dft and idft: dft, idft :: [Complex Float] -> [Complex Float]
 
this is more like a declaration
it defines their signatures
-- equivalent to:
dft :: [Complex Float] -> [Complex Float]
idft :: [Complex Float] -> [Complex Float]
 
11:27 AM
@sehe it’s because of the colours
 
dft' is a helper function introduced to factor out duplicate code from dft and idft
dft'' is another helper introduced to make implementation of dft' clearer
 
Modern Effective C++ arrived today :3
Ordered yesterday, expected time was 4-12 days.
From New Delhi apparently, that's impressive.
 
What are planes
 
flat surfaces
 
11:40 AM
uh wait
is f.call(...) equivalent to f(....)
oh wait different this binding
nvm
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Is that a bootleg of "Effective Modern C++"?
 
it's the sequel to "Ineffective Old C++"
 
@fredoverflow :)
 
wtf is this Guideline Support Library
it this basically "not fucked up standard library"?
 
11:48 AM
It's probably a library for supporting a guideline.
 
all those hours of talks
and in something like 90% of C++ uses a GC would do the job just fine
 
@BartekBanachewicz github.com/microsoft/gsl
 
@BartekBanachewicz Is this grammatically correct?
 
"uses" can be a verb and a noun
 
11:52 AM
Oh right
 
Lounge<Grammar>
 
czstring :D
 
@Mr.kbok amazing
eh
 
The C++ Core Guidelines kinda suck.
 
> GNU bash backend for Idris. […] Barely functional. Super slow.
 
11:55 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes What exactly makes them suck?
 
@LucDanton oooooh
where do you find gems like this
 
> Based on Edwin Brady’s PHP backend […]
 
just noticed that as well
they're having lots of fun with Idris
 
> Please, don't ever use this.
only applies to the PHP backend so I guess we’re good to go with bash
 
> (maybe they'll let you write Node.js, but it's debatable how much nicer that is...).
and it's under 200 lines
that's pretty fucking amazing
 

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