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12:00 PM
Compared to e.g. Puppy, it's pretty cool what people who actually can design and implement languages do.
 
Is this correct code to extract a uint16_t from a byte array: (bytes[0] << 8) | bytes[1]. Or will this return a uint8_t?
 
not really a valid comparison
 
it's perfectly valid, duh
 
@StackedCrooked Should work ok.
 
well, it's not valid since by definition, if they're "people" then they have way more time to expend on design and implementation than I do, so you're comparing outcomes with massively different available resources
 
12:02 PM
@StackedCrooked test it
 
@Puppy well, okay, idris has (at least on gh) 152 contributors
 
@StackedCrooked Make sure to cast down to uint16_t, as it will likely return something bigger.
 
@TonyTheLion fuck you too
 
gonna be hard for me to compete with 152 dudes no matter how skilled I am
 
it's pretty funny, considering that GHC has only 267
 
12:03 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thanks.
 
and 44k commits compared to Idris' 6.7k
 
correct me if I'm wrong but didn't a shitload of GHC's development occur long before Git and Github?
 
@Puppy Yes.
 
@Puppy so? I suppose they imported all of the commits into git
 
not necessarily
 
12:05 PM
I have to install Idris and give it a try with the newest version
 
my company cut loads of subversion history when moving to git
 
@fredoverflow Hahahah, dat haircut.
 
the only bummer is that there's no easy haskell<->idris interoperability
that really sucks
 
@ElimGarak it's the darth vader cut
 
fuck I need to start studying
and uni starts soon so I might not have time to learn anything
fuck
 
12:10 PM
Bartek do you plan on graduating eventually
 
Where's the Anal History?
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva I suppose, why?
> A function whose codomain varies depending on its argument is a dependent function, and the type of this function is called a dependent type, dependent product type or pi-type
hmpfh
this kind of makes sense and kind of is pony magic
> More formally, given a type A:\mathcal{U} in a universe of types \mathcal{U}, one may have a family of types B:A\to\mathcal{U} which assigns to each term a:A a type B(a):\mathcal{U}
I UNDERSTAND THIS
 
@fredoverflow "It's good to see some old friends and... erm... well frankly, a lot of you are jumped up cunts I couldn't care less about... erm people."
 
Geralt of Milfgaard
 
12:24 PM
lol, "little so and sos trying to be language experts"
sounds very close to home lounge
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ ewe
thanks for one boxing that
 
not sure if I should tell you to dig in or get well soon
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ dafuq
 
12:29 PM
@Andy Ok this is getting scarier.
 
What's the fuss? It's just human meat...
Jesus
 
human meat, fine, but that looks rank
 
@Mr.kbok Interesting... they even have static_bounds. I guess that's how I should implement my c_array_view.
 
Having a class named c_array_view totally sounds like array_view is broken.
 
@Morwenn ... is it a const view?
 
12:32 PM
How do you call that by the way?
Here it's called white "Ragù"
 
@thecoshman I know, I'm not saying that it's broken, only that it feels wrong when we need to add some suffixes and prefixes for stuff like that.
 
Mostly because we cook only white meat
 
@Morwenn yeah... can't you just have a const array_view?
 
The regular ragù uses other types of meats that makes it reddish
 
use only american vowels pls
 
12:33 PM
well, Ragu is meaty tomato sauce, afaik... @AndyProwl can confirm
not sure if it's beef specifically... might be
 
@thecoshman I think there were subtle problems with const array_view that they only managed to solve with c_array_view but I have to admit that I didn't really read the proposal.
 
Having a const variant of a class feels like the type system is broken somehow
 
@Morwenn I've not looked into it
 
Oh you said that above
 
Yep.
 
12:35 PM
> implicits, which are function parameters that Scala will pass around for you.
interesting
 
I tend to just wait till it's actually std then learn about what new thing I actually have
 
.... wut.
c_array_view isn't const_array_view
 
isn't a an array_view basically the same semantics as a normal array... just you only have a subset of the array...
 
It's for C-style array with (strided) compile-time bounds & strides.
 
@ThePhD Wasn't it? Well, the name is misleading then.
 
12:36 PM
c_ isn't const
 
so that'd be a const const_c_array_view * const?
 
Who came up with that decision?
 
@ThePhD oh... well that makes some sort of sense...
 
WHY DOES VS NOT RECOGNIZE ALTERNATIVE TOKENS
WHYYYYYYYYY
 
#include <iso{some number here}>
 
12:37 PM
Oh, here we go
14
A: Why does VS not define the alternative tokens for logical operators?

Ben VoigtYou ask about the rationale. Here's one possible reason, not necessarily the one that most influenced the Visual C++ team: Those are valid identifiers in C. Microsoft's recommendation has long been to use C++ mode for both C and C++ code, rather than maintaining a modern C compiler. Valid C co...

@ThePhD Yeah, I know that. But we're talking C++.
 
ciso646, or was it 464
 
@thecoshman Oh, so it has the same name. Nice.
 
@melak47 Something like that.
 
intellisense will tell you :v
 
12:40 PM
@Columbo Microsoft's full of bullshit and their primary customer when it comes to C++ is their own hulking codebase.
So... yeah. They'd have a vested interest in making their macro-ridden heathen monster messes continue to compile.
 
@Puppy you alive?
 
@AngelusMortis Yeah, he just plonked you.
 
@ElimGarak enjoy plonking?
 
@AngelusMortis As a matter of fact, I do.
 
@ElimGarak so be it, let's fight :D
 
12:47 PM
So wait, owner is just an alias for a pointer type? Why not make it a class type?
 
faster compile times
 
But you have solved nothing practically.
 
I wasn't being serious
 
Code that deletes non owning pointers will still compile
 
exceptionally
 
12:49 PM
I think the intent is to show intent.
not sure what owner<T&> implies though...
 
@AngelusMortis No
 
Hi Puppy!
 
Sup puppeh!
 
@Columbo Because fuck them
 
are we all watching Bjarne?
 
12:53 PM
@thecoshman I am
 
@Puppy Nope.
 
not really, but I will be later
 
@thecoshman Isn't he just reading the core guidelines really slowly?
 
@Columbo Yep. and, or and friends should die a horrific death and I'm 100% happy to see Microsoft not support them by default
 
@ElimGarak not really, he's picking out some examples and showing how these are really a good idea that we really should get behind.
 
12:55 PM
@Puppy No, they just shouldn't. Also, thanks for ack'ing my expectation that you hate to write readable code
 
@thecoshman Ah, good, I'll take a look then.
 
but yeah... owner<> seems to make sense... it's just like an annotation to say what you intend to use it for,
 
because && and || are so obscure, nobody can write readable code using them
 
@Puppy I was primarily concerned about not.
 
12:56 PM
exact same principle
 
sigh... meetings
 
I use not.
 
hey guys remember about that <map> discussion?
 
no
 
look at this
@Puppy you weren't there.
 
12:59 PM
@Puppy I do not agree with you
2
 
@Mr.kbok what about it
 
@BartekBanachewicz Error message for using map without including <map> is map is not a member of std, which is technically incorrect
it's a leaky abstraction
The real cause of the error is that you must include <map> to use map
 
@Mr.kbok what if it’s shorthand for 'map is not a member of std in the current scope'
 
@Mr.kbok i see
 
Btw., I got my compile time printf done
 
1:07 PM
@thecoshman ?
 
user406009
@Columbo Wow. That might actually be legitimately useful for good static_assert error messages.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Plonked Bartek, I think.
 
I was wondering what part of the transcript was "cleaned up"
 
@Lalaland The implementation is here (though some stuff is here as well)
 
@Lalaland No, it isn't, because static_assert error messages are required to be string literals.
 
Xeo
1:09 PM
^
 
user406009
@R.MartinhoFernandes Darn.
 
In other words: NO.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Time for a CWG issue :P
 
user406009
Clearly we need yet another proposal :P
 
Or, perhaps a proposal would be more adequate. Less a defect than an enhancement.
 
1:11 PM
@Lalaland Will you marry me?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What's the problem with that?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Well, "%s"_ConstainerStaticPrintf("Heheheehhe") is not a string literal, is it
 
@LucDanton sure. still not a very good error message
 
@Columbo Well, you don't seem to be using that as an error message for static_assert, are you
 
Xeo
@Mr.kbok You can say that about a lot of error messages
 
1:13 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No, it was for fun :P
 
@Xeo sadly true
 
> C++ OOP with class design
great question title
@DeepBlackDwarf I would like to make the code more OOP. I was wondering if it is possible to add inheritance or abstraction to this code? — supaplex 53 mins ago
headdesks
 
@Mr.kbok Isn’t it? (I’m assuming that there is no std::map in scope.)
 
Xeo
fact is, name 'X' is not a member of namespace 'Y' unless declared as such - and such a declaration happens in the appropriate header of std::map and the error message is correct. I don't understand why you're making such a fuss about it.
Sure you can hardcode the names of all std members, but eh.
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz My guess is he got marked down on an assignment for "not enough OOP"
 
user406009
1:17 PM
Stupid questions come from stupid requirements.
 
std::directory_iterator
oh well
forgot to ask
Are we getting ranges in C++17 or not
 
We have them in C++11
It's called Boost.Range
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ it's not called Boost.Ranges and it's not a part of C++ standard
 
Boost.Range is kinda sucky :( Every time I've needed something non-trivial, I've been let down.
 
hence my question
 
Ah, so they're plugging my Internet in two weeks.
 
@TonyTheLion lol
 
I should write an article about this double-polymorphic value trick
 
@Xeo It's an implementation detail.
 
1:25 PM
Am I the only one that found Bjarne a little bit down-toned?
 
What does that mean?
 
I mean, like very depressed, and not focused and generally absent
 
you'd be depressed as well if you had to work with C++
 
There were quite a few errors in the slides
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ That's normal.
 
1:26 PM
He seems like he just doesn't care anymore, even though his talk was apparently a success story.
 
Bjarne has terrible (none at all?) copy editing. Has always had.
TC++PL is terrible.
Silly mistakes everywhere.
 
I had to listen to the talk for 4 times basically. I just can't get into what he is saying. I don't know. Maybe it's really me who is not focused and absent, but it just feels weird.
Yesterday I rewatched one of Scott's talks and I didn't have this problem
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Can't he just hire an editor with all that sweet Morgan Stanley money?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Dude, he's a fucking geezer. It's not your fault.
 
In the nick of time, I'm learning essential survival Russian i.imgur.com/luyTLKX.png
 
1:30 PM
@sehe You're called Seth?
 
I don't find Bjarne that hard to listen to. I quite enjoy listening to him.
 
@Columbo oh, I didn't know gcc and clang had an extension for string literal operator templates! :D
 
@Columbo That's just my name
 
I couldn't find жопа (or any permutation thereof) in the dictionary
 
@sehe YOU'RE CALLED FUCKING SETH? :''D
Hahahahaha
 
1:30 PM
flag flag flag
 
#friends #bombs #picoftheday
 
@набиячлевэлиь Mik'ta
 
@sehe fag fag fag
 
pls pls pls
don't don't don't
 
@MarcoA. nice article.
 
1:33 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes wat wat?
 
Ell
Herro
 
@sehe It's googleable.
 
@Columbo what bout it?
 
@Mr.kbok Nothing, I'm on drugs
 
Bullshit
 
1:35 PM
It's drink time in my timezone (UTC+1)
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Of course? Why aren't you hammered yet?
 
At 2:30pm of a Wednesday?
 
TRWTF is people working from home because of the rain lol
 
Sorry, UTC+2
 
1:36 PM
@Columbo Because it's not half past drink time yet!
 
grr, why are string literals so special. a constexpr char[] should be good enough for static_assert :(
 
people in the lounge are resorting to alcoholism :/
 
Ell
@Columbo aren't you in blighty atm?
 
@Ell Where?
 
@edition And that's surprising?
 
Ell
1:37 PM
the uk
 
ok
 
@melak47 I'll write a CWG issue.
 
Concepts next year, yay!!!
 
write one for static_warning, static_message, too :D
 
Am I the only one not excited for Concepts?
 
1:38 PM
does vector<bool> work properly yet?
 
It never will
 
@ThePhD short answer: yes (long answer: yeeeesssss)
 
@melak47 Actually, I did have static_warning in mind, but that requires a proposal
 
why? TT
 
@ScarletAmaranth I see.
 
1:39 PM
@ThePhD who doesn't want more templates?
 
@melak47 I don't.
 
@user673679 Because changing it would break backward compatibility
 
@ThePhD that just means you have too many. cut back :p
 
I prefer @AndyProwl's proposal to make with the fancy compiler-generated interfaces.
 
@ThePhD You're not? They provide concise and readable SFINAE, which sounds like an oxymoron
 
1:39 PM
Or was someone else proposing that?
@Columbo "Concise and Readable" Pfffff.
 
@ThePhD which one?
 
Ell
virtual concepts
 
I'd have to find it again.
 
Ell
well, type erasure
 
@ThePhD requires (T& a) {{++a} -> T&;} is quite readable IMHO
 
1:40 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ does no one care about future compatibility?
 
@Columbo 'Till that snaps the back of every not-quite-iterator-but-was-good-enough-to-run-before.
 
What's "future compatibility" in this context?
 
Also, are you missing a dereferencing *?
 
@ThePhD lol? If your iterator is silently broken, your iterator is bad and you should feel bad
@ThePhD I wasn't even talking about iterators. That was an arbitrary example.
 
I see.
 
1:43 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ well, why prioritise old code over new code? why make every c++ programmer ever learn the hard way that the obvious thing doesn;t work. Instead of just fixing it.
 
How do you Concept SFINAE again? Just static_assert on the Concept or is there going to be a special REQUIRES clause?
Does it go in the template, or the function body?
 
Old code gets more out of date every day. And loses value every day. Whereas there's surely more C++ code to be written in the future than in the past. So from a cost perspective, it's better to fix the future code...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know :) I was referencing the meme that was translated
 
h @ell o
 
Ell
@TonyTheLion hi
how are you?
 
1:45 PM
I am mighty fine.
 
@Columbo while you're at it, what about static_messagebox :D
3
 
just fixing an impossible bug
to give me some hope :P
 
Ell
Oh wait I have to go to a linux lab in uno momento :3
 
@TonyTheLion He was asking how you were, not how you looked.
 
@ThePhD <3
 
1:47 PM
Ew~, I've been contacted by some many companies in 3 days that I'm unable to remember who's who :/
 
@Morwenn I want to achieve that
 
@TonyTheLion No, you don't. Those are only consulting companies that want programmers to hire to clients :p
 
@Morwenn oh recruiters... I get plenty of irrelevant mail from them
 
Ell
you gotta network, innit?
I ought to learn to do that
 
Ahahah
 
1:51 PM
static_messagebox would let you take compile time tetris to a whole new level
 
@user673679 Because there are huge codebases written in C++03 that has to be maintained.
 
Note that the Ranges TS (or a future proposal, I don't remember) has some elements to make std::vector<bool> work better with algorithms in general.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ If you have such a massive code-base, upgrading to a new language version / toolchain is a pretty weighty decision anyway. I don't see why having one extra minor thing on a list of things to change when upgrading is a big deal.
 
user406009
Can we get a proposal to fix vector<book>? That junk is just broken.
 
user406009
1:56 PM
Book*
 
user406009
Stupid autocorrect
 
@Lalaland And you think that you are the first with this idea in more than 10 years?
@user673679 The whole idea of "backward compatibility" is not to make it a huge deal.
 
user1804599
eww, module declaration below import list
 
@Ell What does that even mean?
 
1:58 PM
Those in the standard committee are bragging on how some code compiled in C++98 is still valid compilable code without any modifications with C++11.
 
@user673679 Is there a simple migration path?
 
user406009
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ they are removing other junk recently. Have you seen the anti-register proposal?
 
@ElimGarak Int year()
 
Yeah, inb4 checking.
 
@Lalaland Junk no one uses, and for which there is a simple migration path (sed s/register//)
 

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