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4:01 PM
@fredoverflow To be entirely honest, I don't really remember. Then again, I'm not entirely sure I remember what I had for breakfast this morning, and that was only a couple hours ago...
 
Does MSVC classify as a cimploler?
 
@набиячлевэлиь Maybe--but even that's probably open to question.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I don't have this problem
 
49
Q: Can my mouse have virus and infect other machines?

Nhật PhátThis is my mouse. I used it with my old computer which was full of viruses. If I use this mouse for my new PC, can my new computer be infected from my mouse?

2
 
user3790646
4:06 PM
ba dum tss
 
@melak47 How do you see it?
 
@JerryCoffin Ha ha, welcome to my world. Wait, who are you? What is this place? How did I get here? ...
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ chat is deselected
 
That's weird
 
4:08 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ norepro
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Try shift + F5
 
@fredoverflow Sorry, I can't reply--I've forgotten how to speak or type.
 
Maybe they fixed it but cache.
 
4:08 PM
@Mr.kbok lol I read "house" instead of "mouse" and was very confused for a few seconds there...
 
cloudflare or some crap? :v
 
Yeah, it was cache
Oh well
cmd + shift + R fixed it
 
tsk tsk yerfffej
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Who cares about the odds of surviving a plane crash? I don't want the plane to crash in the first place!
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Fixed it...or broke it?
What do you think--too snarky?
First, you need to correct your spelling of "ApiLongstocking". — Jerry Coffin 1 min ago
 
4:12 PM
@fredoverflow In that case it's much more likely that you click an ad than that you don't crash.
 
@JerryCoffin haha
 
@Andrey crazy part is that the answer is essentially yes
 
user3790646
I think the hardest type of exploits to avoid are those written in the devices and the hardware
 
@Andrey It would get a bit tough when/if you figured out that the virus was built into the CPU itself (e.g., via microcode download).
 
user3790646
4:19 PM
software that use networking are also able to download and execute in the computer, viruses and exploits
 
user3790646
that's also something hard to avoid
 
user1804599
4:30 PM
@fredoverflow In principle, yes.
 
user1804599
However, I consider Quasar a horrible hack and I wouldn't use it in production.
 
> Install runner as a service and start it. You have to enter a valid password for the current user account, because it's required to start the service by Windows:

gitlab-ci-multi-runner install --password ENTER-YOUR-PASSWORD
Yeah, nope.
Fuck off.
 
...
Topkek
 
And this is already on an elevated command prompt.
Gosh, these people are just terrible at this.
 
4:38 PM
... Wut
 
user1804599
What if you omit the arguments?
 
Elevated prompt doesn't matter, service needs the password to be able to login
 
Ell
I thought OS federated it
is that the word?
 
@CatPlusPlus Run as a service user.
 
Yes, that's what it's for
 
You can do service accounts with automatically managed passwords but you need Active Directory for that
 
@CatPlusPlus What? You need the current user account's password to login as LocalService?
 
user1804599
File a bug report.
 
It's probably assuming current user is supposed to be the service user
 
Or NetworkService in this case.
 
4:41 PM
Running things as LocalService that don't need to is about as dumb as running things as root on *nixes
 
lolwut?
LocalService has minimal privileges.
 
user1804599
 
@CatPlusPlus Confusing with LocalSystem?
 
Oh that was LocalSystem
Anyway you'll probably need to grant ACLs to files and shit, isolation on separate accounts is a good thing
GitLab CI is not very good anyway
 
GitLab gives you tons of free space...
 
4:44 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
 
lol they wrote the runner in Go
 
@CatPlusPlus It has its own HKCU registry hive, and it has a temp folder to run shit.
 
"now commit your bash history"
 
That awkard moment when you're finally in your bed and suddenly realize the cause of that last bug. Current status: making a pot of tea
 
I have spend 2 days trying to solve this, any help would ready be appreciated: stackoverflow.com/questions/32735148/…
 
4:44 PM
lol @sehe ^
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Create your own service entry vOv
 
@TonyTheLion did you watch this? youtube.com/watch?v=KQoJo81lujk
 
There's New-Service in PS
 
Coroutine talk is fucking impossible to understand for me
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl Why?
 
4:46 PM
I got lost after 10 slides and have no idea where the guy is going or coming from
 
user1804599
What's so hard about coroutines.
 
@AndyProwl So you just yielded?
 
What slides
 
@Luc well put
 
4:46 PM
@CatPlusPlus It's garbage. I'm just looking around.
 
Ell
@AndyProwl Where are you lost? :)
 
@We'reAllMadHere tried compiling with another compiler?
 
Ell
Also guys who went to university, were you allowed to publish your code for assignments?
 
user1804599
Coroutines are literally threads that you control pausing and resuming of.
 
@Ell yeah, why not?
 
4:48 PM
@Ell No (says the guy that didn't go to uni)
 
Maybe? I never cared to
 
@elyse Everything is hard about coroutines for me. I need a tutorial for special kids. Also yeah I understand the resuming part
 
Ell
@Jeremy It's plagiarism for me, I would be removed from the course
 
@Ell your uni's dum
 
Ell
I need to get some clarification though because that seems completely unreasonable
 
4:48 PM
Btw I have no idea what is their relation to threass
 
@TonyTheLion yeah, but nothing changed... I wonder why I get a constructor not found error?!
 
*threads
 
user1804599
See threads as coroutines that the OS resumes and pauses.
 
@We'reAllMadHere I have wondered that too (and I'm by no means an expert here). I can't see anything obvious thats wrong
 
@elyse that does not help me unfortunately
I also tried reading blog posts
 
4:49 PM
@Ell is your uni scared that other students will then copy your work?
 
user1804599
Do you understand threads?
 
Ell
@Jeremy yes
 
@AndyProwl Here’s a confusing, unhelpful tip: it’s the flipside of iteration, done inside-out.
 
Seems like a quite untenable position. Not your problem at all.
 
user1804599
4:50 PM
Oh wait, this abomination called stackless coroutines also exists.
 
user1804599
Are you talking about stackless or stackful coroutines?
 
When they start talking implementation and fibers and context and stuff
 
@TonyTheLion Thanks for your time, if anyone else can help I would appreciate it!
 
Ignore that
 
user1804599
Ah, stackful ones.
 
4:50 PM
Await coroutines
Like c++ await coroutines
I think stackless
 
user1804599
oh meh
 
More seriously you could always monkey with them in the language of your choice and see what happens :v
 
Do you understand continuations?
 
@Ell Ask the Professor or make a judgement call based on the policies.
 
@CatPlusPlus thanks
 
Ell
4:51 PM
@ThePhD Yeah I'm going to ask
 
@We'reAllMadHere What
 
sorry misclick
missclick
 
@Luc yeah. I usually like understanding things before I start using them though. At least roughly
@Cat I think so
 
Ell
It took me a lot of fuckery playing around to understand Scalas old CPS transform
 
Scheme has good support for continuations, play with it as primitive
 
Ell
4:52 PM
ruby also has call/cc :3
 
@AndyProwl Key word 'monkey'. That doesn’t count as using.
 
Or just publish it, get kicked out, and then sue the university.
 
I can't scheme
 
Ruby is also garbage
 
No way you lose that case, unless you signed something dumb.
 
Ell
4:52 PM
garbage is fun to monkey around in
 
What happens in the interpreter, stays in the interpreter.
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl A shame you only know C++. Python coroutines are very easy to learn but you have to know Python.
 
@AndyProwl Eh, it's not that hard
Python has generators which are often used as coroutines
 
user1804599
terrible idea but yeah what'd you expect form Python
 
Also I don't understand what suspending a coroutine mean. Why is it not blocking? How does that work? Where is this context thing saved, what is it? Also, using await, how are the variables used after await but declared before captured? Do they live on the stack or on the heap? I have no idea what the answers are nor whether the questions make sense
Like, with .then and continuations you use lambdas and capture shit. How are things captured with await?
 
4:56 PM
@AndyProwl That means you want to know both how to use them and how to implement them. Nothing wrong with that, but separation of concerns and all that.
 
~magic~
 
@Luc right, well I'd like to understand the talk I'm listening to, which sort of mixes both concerns
 
user1804599
If it's stackless coroutines, then probably the AST is transformed into one that resembles a finite state machine.
 
Yeah he was mentioning state machines. He even showed code. I did not understand that either
 
So continuation is goto?
 
user1804599
4:58 PM
Trivial example is turning foo(); await bar(); baz(); into foo(); bar().then([] { baz(); }).
 
Ell
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ meh not really
 
user1804599
You probably need more complicated stuff if you want to prevent stack overflows and if you want to support loops.
 
user1804599
Hmm, wait.
 
@elyse what if the lambda captures things? How is the await equivalent capturing? By value? By move? By reference? What about lifetime if it is by ref?
 
References never change lifetimes
 
5:00 PM
Yeah but those objects may die
 
Same thing as with lambdas
 
user1804599
Oh you're interested in uninteresting C++ details.
 
Won't the references dangle? Why not?
 
Not the implementation's problem.
 
If they die, yes, await changes nothing here
 
5:01 PM
^ Exactly.
 
@elyse Yeah. This os a C++ talk
 
user1804599
Use threads or Boost.Coroutine and be done with it.
 
user1804599
Much easier to understand and doesn't require the API to signify their use.
 
I want to understand not find alternatives
 
Ell
I have to write C for this talk
 
5:03 PM
Asking about references isn't really going to help you understand how it works and will only pollute the conversation.
 
Ell
I'm not looking forward to this
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow great film.
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl We can't really guess those details from vague description.
 
C++ references don't extend the lifetime, that's p much all you need about references
Just imagine it's a stored lambda
 
user1804599
Another way to translate await is by creating a class that contains enum { ... } state; and local variables as NSDMs, and a function that has a large switch (state) statement.
 
5:06 PM
And some other acronyms too
 
hiyo
 
@elyse I know. I was just ranting a bit
 
@AlexM. forever shall we mourn this day
 
Ell
okay emerging xetex
 
> Continuations are the functional expression of the GOTO statement, and the same caveats apply. [[source]](en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation)
 
Ell
5:12 PM
okay vOv
I never thought of it that way
I think that's true in the same way that a for look is the expression of a conditional GOTO
 
Well, yeah, you can see it that way
And coroutines I'll never understand
They look like implementation detail to me
 
Ell
I don't understand people not understanding coroutines :P
 
Like, suspend the execution because it's waiting for something, and go execute something else to then go back and finish the initial execution.
Sounds like context-switching v0v
That's something the CPU does already
 
Ell
it is more expensive for the OS to do it than for the userland to do it
 
Ell
5:16 PM
you could replace coroutines with threads if you wanted to vOv
 
I would expect the exact opposite
 
Ell
actually maybe not because suspension isn't predictable n stuff or whatnot
 
Ell
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I'm not sure
Hmm
maybe I just made it up.
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ OS thread context switching requires going back to the kernel.
 
5:20 PM
Why?
 
because kernal has all void pointars
 
Yeah why does OS thread context switching require going back to OS idgi
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Because that's kind of the definition of "OS thread". There are "green threads" (also known by quite a few other names, such as "fibers") that don't, and therefore had quite a bit lower overhead.
 
I replaced fries with rice and mayo with veggies :<
the rice is really good tho
not as good as fries with mayo but
 
user1804599
Also OS threads aren't specialised for particular needs. You pay for things you may not need, and threads may be yielded/resumed at non-ideal moments.
 
user1804599
5:24 PM
Spawning requires system calls and kernel objects.
 
@AlexM. Looks nice and healthy.
 
Ok so there's no capturing cause the objects stay there
 
My gf puts mayo in everything. Damn Russians.
 
At least the guy is nice and doesn't mind stupid questions
 
user1804599
Or he pretends to not mind them.
 
5:25 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes wasn't your gf australian?
@elyse I'm fine with that too
 
user1804599
robor is a player
 
@Andy we never got to that point.
 
Oh. So your gf is not who I thought your gf actually was :D
 
@elyse How do you implement coroutines without going to the kernel?
 
Yeah. We met two months ago.
 
5:29 PM
Well Russians are generally hotter so that's probably a win
 
Russian women are generally hotter than german women?
In what world do you live in?
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Spawning, for one: malloc a stack, do some bookkeeping, set stack pointer, jump to function.
 
In the one where you don't look at pics on computers
 
@elyse And that costs less than doing that while passing via the kernel for some reason?
 
user1804599
5:31 PM
Yes.
 
user1804599
The kernel also does those things, except also with system call overhead.
 
the more east you go the hotter the women
 
What are those system calls for?
 
@AlexM. ...but depending upon who you listen to, might actually be even less healthy.
 
user1804599
For spawning the thread.
 
user1804599
 
Why don't they do the same you do on user space without system calls?
 
Feb 25 at 17:35, by Jerry Coffin
@AlexM. No, it's saying "The hamburger itself isn't particularly unhealthy. It's the other crap people eat with hamburgers that's really unhealthy." Just for example, a "hamburger" that includes the bun, patty, lettuce, and tomatoes can be quite tasty and healthy.
Feb 25 at 17:35, by Alex M.
... yes, I agree
 
user1804599
Because you need OS threads for parallelism.
 
I agree this time too
 
user1804599
And they want to use the kernel's scheduler.
 
5:33 PM
Maybe I'm not understanding division of spaces here. Isn't there an OS space that is not the kernel space?
 
user1804599
You typically create a pool of OS threads, then schedule coroutines on them.
 
user1804599
Although coroutines have other use cases, this is the one I'm most interested in.
 
Number of times this feature stopped me from posting a noisy comment: 0. Number of times I noticed that Shog9 treats me like an idiot: 3. — Hans Passant 9 hours ago
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No.
 
Ok, so the problem is not inherently caused by the fact that the OS solution is itself more costly, but just by the fact that from user space (which is where you run your program) you have to move to kernel space via system calls to perform certain operations?
 
5:36 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Depends on the OS. A monolithic OS is normally all kernel mode. A microkernel runs substantial parts of the OS in user mode (but that doesn't lead to higher speed as a rule, because even though it's running in a user-mode task, it's normally a separate task from your code, so instead of switching from user mode to kernel mode, it switches from user mode to kernel mode to user mode in a different task.
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ and that you control when you pause and resume them, which may be at moments more suitable to your application.
 
@elyse And you can't do that with GOTO?
 
user1804599
The kernel has to assume the worst always (i.e. no voluntary pausing), and have something that works for many applications.
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ GOTO and coroutines are completely unrelated.
 
> Computer scientists are bad at relationships.
Sean Parent, just now. :D
 
user1804599
5:39 PM
well resuming a coroutine can be seen as a GOTO that does a whole context switch instead of just setting the program counter
 
Ok, so coroutines are a way of having context-switching that does not require the OS?
 
Wikipedia has a pretty good definition imho.
 
user1804599
They require no OS or special hardware support.
 
And then you mix that with a pool of OS threads to create a more efficient (?) implementation of OS threads?
 
You can't really talk about it being "more efficient", since they have different goals really.
 
5:42 PM
@Griwes What's the difference?
 
user1804599
For example in Erlang you can spawn hundreds of thousands of coroutines, and they are scheduled on N OS threads, where N is some number you can set (typically around the amount of cores).
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Sort of, but not entirely. With a goto, you directly specify precisely where execution will resume. With something like yield, you only need to specify that you have a result, and whoever uses that result should process it now.
 
Coroutines tend to be nonpreemptive.
 
user1804599
Spawning 100.000 OS threads is unfeasible, and you'll probably hit ulimit much earlier.
 
(And hence cooperative.)
 
Ell
5:43 PM
man TeX is so weird
 
OS scheduling is usually preemptive.
 
@Griwes ...unless you count (for example) Windows 2.x as an operating system.
 
> usually
 
@JerryCoffin Probably not anymore, it doesn't provide many functions you would expect of an OS now.
 
@Griwes Yup--don't get me wrong; I wasn't trying to argue with you, only pointing to the fact that in this case "usually" isn't just "more often than not", but actually more like "virtually always".
 
5:45 PM
@JerryCoffin I understand that - hence the joke executed as a stealth edit.
 
If you write a proposal, do you refer to yourself via I or "the author"?
I'd guess the latter
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes "One needs to network"
 
user1804599
Erlang processes are scheduled pre-emptively.
 
Ell
or did you mean "innit" specifically?
 
5:48 PM
@Columbo "we" (even if you wrote it alone). Makes you sound...regal (or possibly confused, schizophrenic or conceited).
 
@JerryCoffin Actually, I was thinking of that!
I've seen proposals like that before.
 
@JerryCoffin Ok, so the way coroutines work is that you have functions that send some other function to execute some result and then goes back to where the result was needed?
Sounds to me like asynchronous tasks.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ That sounds at least roughly similar to correct, yes.
 
So you basically have synchronous tasks?
 
user1804599
83
Q: Technically, why are processes in Erlang more efficient than OS threads?

JonasErlang's Characteristics From Erlang Programming (2009): Erlang concurrency is fast and scalable. Its processes are lightweight in that the Erlang virtual machine does not create an OS thread for every created process. They are created, scheduled, and handled in the VM, independent of underl...

 
user1804599
5:50 PM
Perhaps interesting.
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ you can implement an async task API with them if you want.
 
user1804599
The nice thing about using coroutines for concurrency is that you can use blocking I/O (AKA maintainable code and consistent APIs) that is implemented in terms of async I/O (AKA an optimisation) and thus few OS threads instead of many.
 
...kind of
Only they execute "at the same time".
(So you can return a value without exiting the function.)
 
user1804599
Non-concurrent situations coroutines are useful include generators.
 
user1804599
Which are just like Python generators.
 
user1804599
5:56 PM
Or C# generators.
 
user1804599
Both stackful and stackless (the former is more general) apply in this case, but not for concurrency.
 

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