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10:00 PM
@Gizmo go here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/306582/… (much more quality rant)
 
but then again
 
i'm not asking a question
I'm just saying how shit gnu make is
 
@Gizmo Post the code pls
 
is it
 
It's probably the best code evar
 
10:00 PM
@набиячлевэлиь no, I worked hard to make it!
I'll jsut givew a screen
 
Oh god
dis gon b gud
 
@набиячлевэлиь please nab. Think about why you are here. The fact that you don't care and are bored (or whatever combination) doesn't make it nice to always derail, lunge, dismiss, dodge etc. Inb4 "I didn't do a thing"
 
@набиячлевэлиь i.imgur.com/fUtvS8A.png have fun decyphering
 
Okay. That looks really clean. What am I missing? Well done Gizmo
It could probably be reduced a little bit futher, but I'd be happy to find this
 
Looks pretty clean
 
10:03 PM
oh ;o
 
@Gizmo it is very shit
 
wow
 
Have you looked at MSVC project files? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
6
 
@BartekBanachewicz ah just what I expected
 
@sehe I totally get this guy
 
10:03 PM
@sehe well ye I did
 
Good luck doing the equivalent there.
 
@sehe the fact that it's a screenshot of code?
 
Except for lotsa that repeated stuff at the bottom
 
@Gizmo Prepare for at least 12 projects, 4 files each and about 32 hours to click it together. Oh, and don't think about versioning.
 
no really fuck make.
 
10:05 PM
You're welcome to it
 
Use ninja; but also don't
 
I don't particularly like Gizmo but not even him should be subject to it
 
@sehe well actually, github.com/grasmanek94/eXe/ has versioning
automatically
with VS
and git
 
> grasmanek94
 
totally possible
 
10:05 PM
> Gamer_Z eXtreme Party (DeathMatch mode) for SA-MP - made with love, C++ & C
 
@Gizmo you know. Just the fact that you put your pngs in version control doesn't make it "versioning"
@Gizmo Zip-archive-level versioning
 
@sehe pngs?
 
About as mergable
 
Oooh, user-specific configuration files uploaded to the repo
 
I'm not surprised
 
10:06 PM
Nonono, it works by ga bat file that edits a header file, that is the equivalen value of the amount of git syncs
that's my "versioning"
or commits
or w.e. git returns
 
That's version numbering. Gosh
 
I like that you put it in quotes
 
In computer programming, distributed revision control, also known as distributed version control or decentralized version control, allows many software developers to work on a given project without requiring them to share a common network. The software revisions are stored in a distributed revision control system (DRCS), also known as a distributed version control system (DVCS). == Distributed vs. centralizedEdit == Distributed revision control takes a peer-to-peer approach to version control, as opposed to the client-server approach of centralized systems. Rather than a single, central repository...
 
@sehe clearly versioning is appending a number to the file name and saving
 
@BartekBanachewicz even RCS/CVS was better than that
 
10:07 PM
shh
 
Just use the filesystem logs geez
 
reminds me of that TDWTF
 
Y'all are overcomplicatin' stuff
 
where the guy commited a zip of the repo every time (to git)
 
10:08 PM
go figure
 
@набиячлевэлиь trolls overcomplicate
 
@sehe well okay maybe the screenshot part clean, now check the top and bottom lel
 
@Gizmo you do realize most of us have worked with big projects, right
 
Great. Now, if a recruiter finds my GitHub profile (which shouldn't be hard since it's on my resume), they will see that I wear wigs and that I have a project called vergesort. So professional.
 
@BartekBanachewicz yes, and I not
 
10:09 PM
our project at work has >530k commits
 
@BartekBanachewicz nice
 
@Morwenn Rename it to venegancesort
 
I'm literally paid for getting around this thing
so yeah, your makefiles are bearable
 
GXX=g++
GCC=gcc
CXX=$(GXX)
 
Help I cannot into edits
 
@набиячлевэлиь Nah. If they can handle that much, I shouldn't have problems once hired.
 
y'all haven't seen bad makefiles
 
@sehe oh cool, didn't know that :)
 
@Griwes squints at CMake-generated Makefiles
 
10:11 PM
SH = sh
clean:
    $(SH) -c "rm -rf *.o"
 
A human wrote that!
 
@sehe better than cabal, eh
 
oh god save me
 
at least there were like 200 lines between the first one and the target
 
10:12 PM
@sehe wonder if a couple of $(eval)s could help with duping there
 
@Morwenn working as a developer has much more to it than github and coding
 
@BartekBanachewicz Also getting drunk
 
@BartekBanachewicz I hate design phase, but I admit it makes so much things easier
 
And roboring your train stations
 
meh design
 
10:12 PM
@BartekBanachewicz But « that much », I meant the wig thing.
 
this word has been washed out of the meaning
 
also is there anyone here who actually writes rm -fr instead of rm -rf?
 
it can mean everything from literally drawing on napkins to 3-month waterfall
 
@набиячлевэлиь stop drama queening. Get your own project.
 
more like waterfail anyway
 
10:13 PM
because a coworker of mine says that writing rm -rf is stupid because the flags are not in an alphabetic order ;_;
 
@sehe ... make your own eye-bleeding code!
 
@BartekBanachewicz drawing a 3-month waterfall on a napkin
@BartekBanachewicz when you tear up enough, you get waterfall
 
@Griwes news: your coworker may have OCD
 
much news, such OCD, wow
 
10:15 PM
@набиячлевэлиь no. It just annoys me. I have said this often enough
 
go build ghc from sources or something
it's enjoyable
 
Oh well. Since nobody appreciates my witty answer comment I'll just kill the question
 
Hm, so GSL has array_view and string_view but they're different from the TS ones.
 
Oooh. Upvoted just in that second
 
10:17 PM
@AndyProwl of course - it's C++, we can't have consistency
 
@sehe lel
I'll never understand this language culture
 
@KevinDungs you should have mentioned it in the question :) I wouldn't want to admit how much time I wasted scavenging through the source before I ran into that bit in the docs — sehe 5 secs ago
@BartekBanachewicz deal
 
it's not like I hate all those dumb languages, Go is pretty fun. But Java is just from another planet
 
@Griwes it's consistently flawing
 
10:19 PM
@sehe is it also consistently inconsistent?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Except it isn't. It's just a run of the mill GC OOP language. Actually, the prototypical one
@Griwes No
 
:(
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Why do you like Go?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Use Scala when you'd "normally" use Java, problem solved
 
user406009
Green threads?
 
10:20 PM
@Lalaland I don't. But I like how its interfaces are almost like type classes.
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Try out Rust then.
 
it's not that I would use it for anything
 
'Mmmm, I love the way you move.' she sighed. 'Forward and back, side to side . . .' 'Thank you,' he said. 'I do enjoy a good game of chess.'
cool twitter
 
Well. Sure
 
@Lalaland the problem is I learned Haskell before Rust and now I have no incentive to... go back
@sehe ahahah owned
 
user406009
10:22 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Rust offers many things that Haskell does not. Such as lack of GC, easy C interop, and strictness.
 
a) I prefer GC
b) what's wrong with Haskell's C FFI?
c) Strict-by-default extension is coming, there's seq and bang operator and I don't really care because I tend to use lazy behaviour
@Lalaland got anything else?
 
user406009
Controlled mutabaility.
 
mmm. Elaborate?
I can control my mutable state in Haskell as well.
and it's pretty trivial to lift (parts of) State into Reader
 
@BartekBanachewicz You're just one of 7 persons who can
 
hmfph. A lot of people could, they just don't bother to learn.
 
user406009
10:25 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Using mutable data structures in Haskell is a big pain.
 
user406009
And the immutable ones come with significant runtime costs.
 
@Lalaland Why would it be?
 
7 is a lot
 
@Lalaland Oh, performance again. Why don't we go to x64 assembly while we're at it.
 
user406009
10:27 PM
@BartekBanachewicz You got to be kidding me if you are claiming that MVector is the pinnacle of user friendliness.
 
I actually like x64 asm way more than x86
 
@Lalaland actually, the mutable ones can often provide significant performance wins. But not vice versa.
Remember Knuth (or who was it)
 
user406009
@sehe That's what I said.
 
@Lalaland at those rare times where I had/wanted to use mutable structures, it wasn't that terrible
you know when it's terrible? When you keep thinking that Haskell is such a pure, academic language
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz The cost of using a non-pure language is much cheaper than writing in assembly.
 
user406009
10:29 PM
The cost/benefit analysis is not the same.
 
Once you say "fuck it" and actually approach it as a pragmatic tool (i.e. stop giving a damn about the FP religion), it turns out it can do all of the pointers, memory and mutability just fine
 
@Lalaland No. You said immutability comes with performance loss. In fact, mutability comes with unfair performance advantage because of the way in which CPU hardware functions :)
 
@sehe The prototypical one would be Smalltalk (which is still a lot more interesting than Java).
 
user406009
@sehe Aren't those isomorphic?
 
@JerryCoffin well, there's prototypical in the pure and in the practical sense ... :~
 
10:30 PM
@Lalaland And the cost of using a pure language can be lower than using an impure one because of conciseness and correctness.
Same goes with GC.
It's faster to write programs backed with GC, but you can lose perf and certainly memory.
 
is gsl in a separate repository on github?
can't seem to find it
 
@Lalaland One version presupposes premature pessimization, the other not
Correctness still trumps speed.
 
@Stacked I think so
 
@sehe ...and then there's Java, which is both impure and impractical.
 
10:31 PM
So, the correct version wins. The mutability just complicates, and gets the upper hand because of practicalities only
 
And, uh, if we're talking desktops, having a GC has long stopped to be a huge issue
 
@JerryCoffin oh sure
 
even if you're doing big data processing with GC there's specialty stuff like Conduit for haskell
which will guarantee you won't OOM with thunks or something
 
@Stacked github.com/Microsoft/GSL
 
and most of the time fighting with ownership is just not worth it
 
10:32 PM
Thanks.
 
@sehe yeah, my thoughts exactly.
 
mind you, the practicalities - of course - dominate computation intensive applications :)
 
With Hate I use lazy(sic) lists(sic!) of vertices passed around on CPU (sic!!)
 
shiny. that's the lua thing, right
 
it's fast enough. Haters gonna hate.
@sehe the Love2D "clone"
it does graphics alright.
anyway the idea is that you can either start with a powerful language without a GC and perhaps add it later, or start with a safe GCed language and only get to the metal when you need it
Both meet in the middle, but of course, given the way, the achieved solutions tend to differ
 
user406009
10:36 PM
Anyways, you have to admit that Haskell's features come at significant runtime cost.
 
user406009
Sometimes you are willing to pay that cost.
 
user406009
Sometimes you can't.
 
I agree, but at the same time I think for a particular brand of heavy computations, haskell can be still fast enough
as in, the overhead can become significantly lower for specific tasks without much hassle
then there's also concurrency, which in modern HP computing can mean a lot more than raw data crunching
I might want to develop one idea in Rust though, now that we had this discussion.
 
user406009
You are mostly correct about performance though. Just see the number of people programming in dog slow languages like Ruby.
 
Ahahah, just saw this on Twitter, @EtiennedeMartel is just how I imagined him, his companions as well. :D
 
user406009
10:40 PM
Most of the time, no one cares at all.
 
@Lalaland and the other half of the time, people doing "optimizations" have little to no idea about what they're doing
var l = arr.length; // cached for performance
for (var i = 0; i < l; i++) ...
stuff like that
 
user406009
To be fair, if that was strlen() instead of arr.length, that would be a correct optimization.
 
user406009
But that's more about C-Strings being bad than anything else.
 
eh, sure, but even then the compiler should spot something this trivial
 
@Bartek ++i for real performance :P
 
10:43 PM
even for such simple case you'd need to carefully evaluate whether it has any significant benefits
I remember doing this kind of stuff and gaining like 0.1% in my JS code, when it turned out that changing .forEach to for yielded 20x speedup.
 
@BartekBanachewicz ...and yet most won't/can't (need some kind of annotation to tell them strlen is a pure function).
 
@ElimGarak topkek
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin I would be more concerned about the fact that the compiler wouldn't be able to tell if the loop modifies the string.
 
user406009
Especially if you make a call to a function defined in another translation unit.
 
@ElimGarak looks like a lot of ways to down money
 
user406009
10:45 PM
That aliasing bro
 
@Lalaland immutability !
 
(Etienne is the guy that picks up the pr0n magazine, for those who are confused)
 
I am confused. Not about that, though
 
was the guy in 1:17 having his organs stolen
@ElimGarak he had a MLP tee, c'mon
 
@BartekBanachewicz That part was kinda disturbing ahahah
 
10:49 PM
reminds me of The Meaning Of Life
anyway
time for sleepies
 
15 rep today, gonna see flags soon.
 
Hi
Night everybody
 
Well, wasn't that quick
Jefff got bored with us after .5s
 
@Lalaland Yes all those slow languages
Just taaaaking foreeeeeeeeeeeeeever to wriiiiiiiiiiiiite wooooooooooords in
 
10:57 PM
@набиячлевэлиь 4s
 
@sehe Estimated typing time substracted?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ night
 
@набиячлевэлиь no
 
@sehe I knew that "something to do in near future" = "fuck you, not doing that" in your case
 
I want a 'build, run tests & commit' button in VS
 
11:05 PM
I want a "change to acceptable compiler" button in VS, but I'm not getting that either.
I'm not bitter.
 
@Lalaland ...if it passes that string to that function, sure (basically the same problem as you run into with strlen). Also theoretically a problem if the string is global, but if you do that, you get what you deserve.
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin No. Calling any arbitrary function could possibly mutate an alias of the string.
 
@набиячлевэлиь what?
 
@sehe It's still glaringly white
 
Ah
IMPAHTANT
 
user406009
11:07 PM
void foo(const char* a) {
   for (int i =0; i< strlen(a); i++) {
      arg();
   }
}
 
user406009
Pulling the strlen out is illegal without a definition of arg.
 
@jaggedSpire We believe you
 
@sehe :)
 
I like it when the compiler isn't able to optimize stuff. It makes me feel smarter when I manage to do it in its stead.
 
@JohnCarlson Hello!
 
user406009
11:10 PM
s/manage to do it/incorrectly manage to do it/
 
user406009
Welcome to the Lounge!
 
@Lalaland Some optimizations are obvious to us but totally obscure to the compiler.
 
@Morwenn Like quitting programming and taking up botany.
 
That's what you get for writing low level shit
 
11:12 PM
@ElimGarak I'm pretty sure clang will be able to do that someday.
 
I usually assume that I'm a moron and the library implementer knows what they're doing but there was a time I was using a priority queue to implement a variation of dijkstra's algorithm and MS's debug version was operating in O(n^2) time...
 
:25899348 I was missing a word, but I can also be pretty :o
 
mhm finally the makefile is done, now I can code on both linux and windows without worries :D
 
@Morwenn You are
 
@Lalaland Good point.
 
11:14 PM
empty:=
space:= $(empty) $(empty)
 
@набиячлевэлиь The photos may make people think so :p
 
@набиячлевэлиь always handy to have
in case it's ever needed
 
Well I did need it a few months ago :)
 
Don't ever assign to CXX nor CC yourself
 
11:16 PM
@набиячлевэлиь because? ;o
 
Also, GCC is redundant, use CC
 
ah okay
 
@Gizmo Because an unalternativised GCC5 has binaries named g++-5 and gcc-5
 
ah sooo
 
So if you override them, you're gonna have a bad time
 
11:17 PM
Ever try Imake? It's fairly easy to switch compilers. But gnumake is probably better now
 
And many, many yelling users
> Suppliers of high quality equipment & ingredients to make almost any type of alcoholic drink, cheese and yoghurt
 
yeah you're right
 
Wondering if some $(eval) magic could help with that redundant bottom
 
you mean the .DEFAULT: case?
 
@Gizmo Line 136 and below
 
11:20 PM
well that would be indeed cool to make it nicer, but hey it works, so, well, I'm so happy
first "big" project I have on linux
 
mostly I did everything on windows, cuz you know, it's easy
 
No difference, tbh
 
also the .DEFAULT: case "hack" or "workaround" does work nicely, but I'm strugling to find "the correct way"
as you see there's no specific source files
just "get everything in that subdirectory"
 
That's good
I like that
 
11:21 PM
oke :D
well reading manuals helps creating creative ideas :)
 
@Gizmo .DEFAULT is p. much equivalent to an unnamed otherwise-identical rule on top
Also, don't these libraries use buildsystems themselves?
You should invoke them if that's the case
 
but ye I just it it for this now, that will probably save me a few hours for each project I want to setup that is crosscompatible
 
> I propose to introduce the returntype keyword, which will represent the return type of the current function.
> You may want to instead introduce a decltype(thisfunction) which returns the full function type, as it would be useful in disambiguating contexts too.
 
but okay, cc for C++ compilation, and what for C (sqlite...)
or switch using -std= ?
 
finally done with the problem :<
I lost 15 minutes because I didn't parenthesize properly wtf
I can sleep now
but no seriously the whole thing with white space as partial application or w/e is crazy it's so easy to get it wrong if you don't do this everyday
 
11:34 PM
It's getting pretty late. I'm going to sleep too.
 
gn all
 
See you later everyone (yes, you too) :p
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'll try to get the code to you tomorrow evening
I can't really tackle the last 2 problems now anyway, they're both essentially == implement a compiler and I can't even tree in haskell
 
@thecoshman I can remind you of this periodically
 
woop woop
 
11:42 PM
hello
 
Lounge power @ CppCon! Go @Griwes! :D
17
 
yay
 
The outline:
 
Not pictured: empty room
 
but if it's empty, then who took the picture? :O
 
11:52 PM
 
A lonely passerby.
 
@Cat the room is not packed but there are about 30 people
Maybe more?
 
Sockpuppets
 
lol
 
Not sure why they gave him this huge room though
 
11:54 PM
Big ideas man
 
they hyped it up
 
A smaller one would have kept the density higher which is better
 
RIP
namespaces are hard
 
I like how if I sleep for 30 minutes,
 
for documenting
 
11:55 PM
On purity in C++:
 
Beware of floating poop
 
I have a nightmare that spans like 2 fucking days.
Fuck brains.
 
@ThePhD I only have nice dreams right before waking up :<
 
@AlexM. Good for you.
 
I think you misunderstood
I agreed with you ("fuck brains")
 
11:57 PM
Pervert zombies
 
there fixed
it was my bad
 
You likely only remember the dreams right before waking up
 
either way it's annoying
 
Oh. Doing .. cpp:namespace:: stuff hides the namespace but typing it manually e.g. .. cpp:function:: void stuff::f() shows it.
 

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