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11:00 PM
@Shoe No, I mean that women in the same jobs get paid less.
Because they can't negotiate as well, because "ambition" is seen as a "male" quality, so men who display it are encouraged, but when a woman does it she's seen as "pushy".
The real problem is we have all these fucking double standards.
 
@Shoe I obviously can't speak for Etienne, but I do think it's probably quite a bit more difficult for women to get promoted above a certain level in a fair number of companies (just for one example). In some cases there probably are some valid reasons for inequality in number of top-level executives--but that doesn't mean all promotion is being done fairly.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I've actually researched that statistic myself once and what I found was a statistic that actually said that women on average earn less than men, without considering the working hours or jobs they choose to do. Do you care to provide your statistics?
 
@sehe like a turd in a high-tech toilet
 
I'll search for mine
 
ITT poor womanz
 
11:02 PM
Here's mine: oecd.org/std/37962502.pdf (page 15)
 
@Shoe I've seen a fair number of statistics, and seen a fair number of apologists who point (correctly, in many cases) to women being more likely to select jobs that pay less, stop working to raise children, etc. Those undoubtedly do explain some differences in pay--but even trying to give the benefit of all possible doubt to such reasons, it's still impossible to be at all certain they explain all the differences.
 
@JerryCoffin Ok, what might also explain the difference?
 
@Shoe Can't seem to find them right now.
 
@Shoe If the answer is "nothing" - what will you conclude?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Fair enough. Do you consider women going in maternity leave an issue for women? If so, how would you try to improve it or fix it?
@sehe The same as the answer
 
11:07 PM
@Shoe But let's see your point: that women get paid less because they choose jobs that pay less. Okay, maybe. That leaves two questions: 1) Why do they choose those jobs? 2) Why do traditionally female jobs invariably pay less?
 
Here's a controversial question: Why do you give a fuck?
 
Woo! Wordpress can do Markdown. Nice.
 
@Shoe It's entirely possible that at least part of it actually does stem from actual discrimination.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I've once read of how women tend to favour jobs with a direct contact with people as opposed to better paying job in isolation or in science fields. Examples of this are teachers, nurses and so on. Especially in taking care children.
Let me ask you something instead: why wouldn't a company just hire women if it can get away with paying them less for the same exact job?
 
@EtiennedeMartel A fair number pay less at least in part because they involve less education. The situation in health care may well be the most obvious--nurses are traditionally female and doctors traditionally male. A nurse typically requires a 2-year or 4-year degree. A doctor typically requires something like 8 years of college followed by 2 years (or so) of residency.
 
11:11 PM
@JerryCoffin Why do I get paid way more than a teacher despite needing less education?
 
@JerryCoffin I don't think it's a part worth mentioning because it's 1) too small 2) when they get caught or get sued they actually pay for having done that.
 
@Shoe I disagree with the "favour" part as I think it's not entirely a conscious choice, but then, here's another question: why do those jobs pay less?
 
Because there's no profit in them, duh.
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's a good question. What do you think?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Because the people paying you value what you do more than the people paying teachers value what they do.
 
11:13 PM
boring topic again
 
Also, the people paying in each case have different amounts of income to dispose on salary.
 
@Rapptz Good of you to bring nothing of value to it, then.
 
I try my best.
What are you bringing of value from the 10th time you bring this up?
 
@Rapptz Actually, @Shoe brought this up.
Which you'd know if you read the discussion, but I guess you were too busy trying to find a way to derail it.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I think there really is a perception (to at least some degree) that "those who can, do; those who can't, teach (and those who can't teach, teach physical education)."
 
11:14 PM
@Rapptz Finally, some reason detected in the Lounge <3
 
Ell
the answer btw is because men and women are different ;)
 
@JerryCoffin Hey, I know that line
 
man
 
A lot of it follows from this: In a relationship, you make a mistake, she gets angry, you apologize. She makes a mistake, you get angry, she gets angry, you apologize.
 
@Ell Oh, they are, but it's rarely relevant.
 
11:15 PM
@Ell NO THAT'S SEXIST
 
@ElimGarak Maybe it's because I'm in a super advanced relationship from the future, but my girlfriend does not shift the blame when its her fault.
 
wtb etienne's girlfriend, then replicate and share with world
 
@Shoe Suing someone is fucking expensive.
 
@Shoe In a few cases where discrimination is particularly blatant, people get caught and punished. I suspect there are quite a few cases where there probably is at least some degree of discrimination happening, but it's subtle enough that it's essentially impossible to prove in court, so it results in no punishment.
 
@Shoe But in all honesty, I don't know. Probably a lot of factors at play here.
I just feel that if people stopped assuming that being a man or a woman meant you have to be a certain way, maybe things would be slightly less shitty.
 
11:18 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I don't know in other countries, but here you can go to a TV station and tell them that you suspect someone is discriminating towards women or yourself and they'll give you equipement to film it and/or plant one of their actor filming and then making an episode about them until they get "punished".
 
@Nooble totes
 
I've also heard of law firms taking cases for free or at low cost, with the promise of a percentage of the settlement going to them.
There are situation where money doesn't stop you in these cases.
@EtiennedeMartel Why?
 
Ell
TIL according to wikipedia Kurt Gödel died from starvation because he was afraid of being poisoned
 
@Shoe Because it's toxic. It forces people to be what they don't necessarily want to be.
 
sup @Nooble?
 
11:23 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Do you mean like homosexual preferring men over women sexually as opposed to the status quo of them preferring women?
 
@Shoe That would be a simple example.
 
@Shoe No, I mean men not being allowed to talk about being abused because real men are strong, for example.
 
In fairness, I think there's also some discrimination (if you want to call it that) that works in the opposite direction. At least in the US, a lot of jobs working in bars and restaurants have no educational requirements and can pay a young, pretty female almost ridiculously well. Most of this, however, is in the form of tips, and is almost certainly vastly under-reported on taxes as a rule. OTOH, most of these jobs have essentially no long-term prospects either.
 
@Shoe Or if a woman is sex-positive she's a slut but a man doesn't face that kind of criticism.
 
@EtiennedeMartel What if the image of the "strong" men is an evolutionary thing? Women maybe are attracted to strong men and men are attracted to feminine women.
 
11:25 PM
It's the double standards. Be whatever the fuck you want, just because you're a man or a woman or whatever else doesn't mean society should judge you differently.
 
The following is a joke. A key that opens a lot of different doors is valuable. A door that is opened by a lot of different keys, not so much.
 
It's sad that you had to prefix that with "The following is a joke."
 
@Shoe People are attracted to all kinds of people.
 
You don't believe there's such a majority there though?
I think that people are fairly free to express themselves in this time.
 
@Shoe So what if there is a majority? Doesn't mean we should assume that everyone is the same.
 
11:28 PM
Never said so.
 
@Shoe And I still see plenty of cases where people are judged only based on their gender. A lot of people say or do sexist things without really thinking about it, and without meaning any ill feeling.
 
Ell
I don't think being sex positive is the same as being a slut
 
Indeed.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Such as?
 
@Shoe The above joke by @ElimGarak. Sure, it's a joke, but a lot of people really think that.
 
11:30 PM
@EtiennedeMartel But people being easily offended is also a problem imho. That over sensitivity to what someone said gets taken too far.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Hmm, that sounds like a fallacy.
 
@TonyTheLion If I punch you in the face, is it your fault for being hurt, or my fault for punching you?
 
That is true, a lot of people have trouble imagining women as being the key. In other words man = woman = key.
 
Ell
I don't think people being offended is a problem until they start causing changes is legislature
@EtiennedeMartel insulting someone is different than offending them
 
@Ell Is it?
 
11:31 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I mean it's kind of speculative to say that "a lot of people" think something
 
Ell
I would say insult is active and offense is passive
Its not possible for me to know if I will offend someone by saying something
That's what I would say
 
@EtiennedeMartel I was talking about people being offended, not about punching people.
 
@TonyTheLion But what is the difference between feeling offended and feeling hurt?
@Ell Indeed, but nothing stops you from apologizing if you accidentally cross a line you couldn't see.
 
And I'm not saying plain insulting someone is ok, I'm saying that someone casually saying something that could be construed to be offensive, but wasn't necessarily meant to be so, that isn't really a reason to get to offended
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel of course not :)
 
@TonyTheLion How can you tell? You don't know the person in front of you.
What is "too offended"?
 
@Ell At least from what I've seen, the term "slut" (as a pejorative) is much more commonly said by one woman about another woman than by a guy about a woman. Essentially the only time I've heard a man angrily calling a woman a slut, it was followed virtually immediately by something like: "I never cheated on her!" (i.e., they were a couple, and her "sex positive" behavior involved having sex with other men when he at least thought they were in an exclusive relationship).
 
@EtiennedeMartel Well indeed, and my point is that trying to walk on eggshells in the hope that you might not offend someone is also not really ideal
 
Sorry, but I kinda have to abandon this constructive conversation to go explain operator< to a C++ student.
 
@Shoe Enjoy
 
Ell
11:36 PM
I think people being offended is not ideal, but someone has no obligation to self censor in a forum of free speech
 
People need to stop being snofleks, it's annoying.
 
@TonyTheLion That's what I like about "trigger warnings" (I really prefer the term "content warning"): just warn beforehand that you'll touch subjects that might be offensive.
Then people can just leave the room.
 
@EtiennedeMartel that is meant to say "to get offended", there's a "to" too much there
 
Ell
If they are in a situation of a particular audience I think its different
 
@EtiennedeMartel What content might not be offensive?
 
Ell
11:37 PM
As Etienne just said WRT trigger warnings
 
@Shoe Well, if you're about to talk about rape.
Might as well warn people.
 
Sure, where do you draw the line?
 
Damn meta.
 
Ell
@shoe its difficult
 
@Shoe You just don't.
You don't need snowflakes in your life. And being open is the way to get rid of them.
 
11:38 PM
@Shoe I think at one point you're going to trip up, and at that point the important thing to do is to recognize that it might be your fault.
 
Why would it be my fault?
 
@EtiennedeMartel They can but clearly don't, at least part of the time. In fact, there do appear to be people who go looking for statements, behavior, etc., about which they can (at least claim to be) offended (witness the time of flags we've seen here from people trawling through ancient conversations).
 
People need to spend a little time in the lounge and grow a thick skin.
@Shoe Because you're a white male and it's always your fault.
 
@JerryCoffin Yes, but they're assholes, and assholes tend to be in minority.
Going all shotgun mode because the person in front of you might be asking for it seems a bit extreme.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Sadly they get most noisy and therefore noticed most.
 
11:40 PM
@TonyTheLion Do we shut down all discussion because someone might be a troll?
 
Ell
@shoe I don't think it would be your fault. But for your own benefit you might choose to draw a line at some arbitrary place
 
@EtiennedeMartel No.
 
I'm not sure "offended" is even the right word though.
 
@Shoe Why not "hurt"?
Because psychological pain is still pain.
 
Ell
@shoe would you talk to a stranger in graphic detail about rape? I think not
 
11:40 PM
Like if I start talking about rape and there's a girl that was raped, how could I know she was raped? Could you say I offended her?
@Ell So is talking about rape in non graphic details (like we are doing here) fine?
 
@Shoe If she (politely) asks you to stop, and you keep going, then it's your fault for not giving a fuck.
 
Not giving a fuck is not against the law, or is it?
 
Ell
@shoe I think its fine in that it isn't past my arbitrary line
 
@EtiennedeMartel Right, and I agree. But I don't agree that I should trigger warn every time I talk about rape.
 
Ell
I agree also
 
11:42 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Interesting how much less terrible the idea sounds when you put it that way.
 
I've never talked about rape in any serious capacity in my 23 years of existence. Doesn't sound like it is a topic that ends well.
You know, beyond "it's not okay."
 
user1804599
Rape is very bad.
 
What about talking about a murder that happened near my town? Should I trigger warn that too because someone might have had their cat hit by a car?
 
user1804599
Never rape anybody.
 
What about bananas? Should I trigger warn that too because someone might have been raped with one?
I mean can you see the problem?
 
11:44 PM
I see it, yes.
 
@Shoe There were two murders in my hometown while I was growing up. In the first one, he killed the guy, chopped off his dick and stuffed it down his throat.
 
You're all raising valid points, but in the end I guess they all have the same solution: don't be an asshole and show some empathy.
 
He's still in prison, I believe. Which is good.
 
user1804599
@Shoe lol why are you arguing with an SJW
 
user1804599
you should be careful as it might get you in jail
 
11:44 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Sure, I'm all for it.
 
I have no problem with empathy, but I have a problem with over the top reactions.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I think if that's fair at all, the circumstances have to be pretty carefully limited. Otherwise, it becomes all too easy to use it as a way of simply preventing people from voicing opinions that differ (or may differ) from what I favor (and yes, I'm pretty certain rules intended to protect people have been abused that way).
 
I mean, people are gonna get hurt by what you are saying sometimes. Even if you don't want to hurt other people.
 
@Shoe exactly this
 
Start throwing stones!
 
11:46 PM
If you're going to have a discussion about anything, you might hurt someone's feelings, but it is probably not intentional, and it shouldn't stop the conversation being had
 
user1804599
Feeling offended is one of the most wonderful skills many people have.
 
If you are afraid of being hurt by people talking without any obvious intention of hurting you, then perhaps you should talk to someone you trust about this, or a psychologist.
2
 
user1804599
It should be exploited whenever possible.
 
@TonyTheLion But how do you decide if it's over the top?
 
If people get offended easily, they're easy to spot. Then you just eliminate them from your social circle.
But always be mindful that you're not actually being a dick.
 
user1804599
11:48 PM
@ElimGarak I once humorously used "cancer" as a swearword on Facebook. Got complaints by someone. They got an unfriend.
 
@MadameElyse That's so Dutch.
(The "cancer" part, not the complaining)
 
Some people have this irrational notion that mentioning cancer kinda summons it. My friend is actually quite disturbed by the word.
 
My father died of brain cancer three years ago. Cancer is no joke.
 
Definitely. But mentioning it won't give it to you. Which is this weird phobia he has.
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's really context dependent.
 
11:49 PM
@EtiennedeMartel As my great aunt used to say: "It's no laughing matter, but it's no matter if you laugh."
 
@ElimGarak Maybe it reenacts memories about someone close to them dying of cancer.
 
user1804599
It is a very commonly used swearword in the Netherlands.
 
I think it's because people don't want to be reminded of a tragic event.
 
user1804599
Very few people (PC/SJWs) actually mind it.
 
Ell
Speaking of SJWs I like this advert
 
user1804599
11:50 PM
In an information society like ours you have to form a shield against things people say that you don't like.
 
@Ell That's the kind of things I want to see more.
 
user1804599
If you fail to do so, all bets are off for you.
 
He's a really nice guy who feels for a lot of folks. He was quite sad when he heard of the return of cancer in case of John Bain (TotalBiscuit).
 
Whee! I see I have missed some discussion while working on the WP thing.
Too bad I have to go to bed now.
 
user1804599
It is indeed time to go to sleep.
 
user1804599
11:51 PM
Goodbye and have fun with your discussion.
 
@MadameElyse G'night.
 
Ell
@MadameElyse goodnight friend
 
Night
 
I'm trying to stay up a bit later tonight
I went to bed early last two night and still couldn't get up in the morning
So now I'll see if sleeping a bit less helps
 
Sleeping for 6 hours seems optimal, with 5 hours of sleep, you also wake up a bit jumpy.
 
11:57 PM
@ElimGarak Yea probably somewhere around there
 
@TonyTheLion At least for me, it works well in multiples of 4 hours. After 4 hours, I can get up and feel pretty reasonable--but if I sleep for 5 or 6, I feel tired all day; if I go (much) past 4, I need to continue for around 8 before I'll feel well rested the next day.
 
Interesting
 

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