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1:00 AM
To be fair, I'm with @thecoshman's intuition: I think it's random and natural selection has emphasized that it was good to avoid heat. Things like proteines that damage or whatnot. Things that, in general, are not conducive to healthy cells.
I can't prove it or even make it plausible, but this is what I'd have assumed a logical splanation. And (if I got it right) the pirate too.
 
Animals have developed a response to heat because those who didn't died. The end.
 
@sehe yeah but it’s also beneficial not to be subjected to excessive ionising radiation or UV light
no pain response to either of those things
 
@AngryLettuce more specifically, those that did, survived
 
I'll have to leave you to figure things out without me, even though it fascinates me to see how you go about it. But it's time to sleep
 
@LucDanton no where near as drastically as heat
 
1:02 AM
@thecoshman No, it's the other way around
 
there’s also carbon monoxide inhalation etc.
 
Too niche
 
I'll take day in the med sun over sitting in a 40c oven any day
 
@thecoshman is it, though?
what kind of heat dangers do e.g. small mammals face?
 
> yeah but it’s also beneficial not to be subjected to excessive ionising radiation or UV light
 
1:03 AM
@LucDanton the fact that life evolve to avoid heat more than UV, ionisation or CO says yes
 
well that's why we evolved melanin no ._.
 
@LucDanton Yeah. Well, I don't know whether there are many species who have successfully developed avoidance from that (as opposed to simple resilience). It could well be about that pace you mentioned.
 
@thecoshman now you’re being circular
 
@LucDanton not at all
 
@AngryLettuce I was wondering about pain response in particular
 
1:03 AM
Cells break down due to radiation, but the effects are mainly long term. If life expectancy is short, things like cancer don't dominate survival rates as easily
 
Pain response is more an immediate thing I suppose
Radiation is more background
 
remember you don't have to be directly 'sensative' to UV to know you prefer the shade
 
1 min ago, by Luc Danton
what kind of heat dangers do e.g. small mammals face?
 
Ell
Isbit because UV is a long term thing?
 
1:05 AM
also, life evolved in water; water transfers heat rather well, it blocks most radiation very well too
 
@Ell in the short term it can blind you
@thecoshman remember the snakes
 
@LucDanton You do not get this
 
Ell
Also benefits of being in UV ie sun outweigh the negatives which will probably only accumulate significantly after reproduction
 
It sounds crazy, but disabling npm's progress bar yields a 2x npm install speed improvement for me https://t.co/ChXxSepCBK
 
@thecoshman not any more. Don't forget the scale of evolution. It doesn't make sense to explain evolution with conscious brains that have only existed for a tiny fraction of the last era of evolution
 
1:05 AM
laffo
 
Ell
@LucDanton I suppose. Looking into the sun hurts, I suppose that is just visible spectrum
 
just because something is not a danger any more, does not mean that 'fear' of it sudenly disappears
 
@AngryLettuce it’s the big one isn’t it?
 
Ell
But where else would UV have come from back in the day?
 
@jaggedSpire Snrk.
 
1:06 AM
@thecoshman remember the snakes (and this all has nothing to do with fear)
 
@LucDanton I don't know of any other heat dangers that would warrant a pain response
 
@LucDanton species have consisted of the same kind of organic cells (that are only mildly sensitive to harmful radiation) for waaaaay longer than eyes have existed.
 
@LucDanton you are also confused. You don't have to be directly sensitive to something to evolve to avoid it in the first place
 
That's true
 
@AngryLettuce kinda weird isn’t it? although that being said I actually don’t know which mechanism is at play when e.g. feeling too hot, might be the same
 
1:07 AM
@LucDanton Fires used to be much more prevalent in the past
 
dehydration kills basically every life we know off, or at least puts it pause. Life avoid worrying about drinking for a loooong time by just staying in the wet stuff
 
27 mins ago, by Luc Danton
anyway, I did find interesting clues to my question
@AngryLettuce for the record
 
@luc you question is founded on ignorance
 
@thecoshman I am not confused
@thecoshman my question is reasonable
 
@LucDanton and it's answered
 
1:08 AM
@AngryLettuce really?
 
@thecoshman I know, I’ve said as much 27 minutes ago
you do have trouble keeping track of things
 
@thecoshman That's true. When you first said it I assumed that Luc was pushing back because he knew something, but in absense of that I'm still with you on that.
 
Ell
Lettuce is affected by radiation as well as heat
 
the reason animals are STILL 'scared' of hot stuff is they have not evolved to not be
 
Ell
I'm sleeping :P
 
1:09 AM
@sehe Yeah during Carboniferous for example every shit would catch fire constantly
 
Ell
After you answer this question, can you please ping me when you have the answer to why there are naturally occurring very spicy peppers?
 
Also before man period forests were more dense and fires spread longer
 
@AngryLettuce Mmm. Makes sense (what made it stop?)
 
@sehe all my questions were genuine and I’ve been looking for inputs all that time
 
@AngryLettuce ... do we point out that some life has evolved to actually need fire...
 
1:10 AM
@thecoshman such as?
 
@LucDanton I know. My assumption was wishful I'm afraid
 
@Ell oh you can google that
 
/cc @TonyTheLion you should wear aviators
 
@thecoshman if you know something, please do say so
 
@AngryLettuce there are quite a few plants/trees that rely on fires to clear out the surrounding areas so that their offspring can have a good start
@LucDanton with closed eyes/ears ¬_¬
 
1:11 AM
@thecoshman Oh yeah OK, I was thinking more litterally
 
@thecoshman I honestly think you should sleep on it and come back to it later, pay attention to the snake thing
 
@AngryLettuce stop thinking about a single generation and it makes sense :P
@LucDanton ffs
 
@thecoshman what is the matter?
 
@thecoshman I know I was just thinking you meant it litterally
 
@thecoshman "they rely on it"? Nah. They happen to thrive better in areas where this happened, perhaps
 
1:14 AM
Early snake-like things RANDOMLY evolved venom, they took of as species because they could kill shit to eat (thus let them have more babies, and good music). Later some species of snake RANDOMLY evolved to use constriction, other's evolved other tricks too. Some of the constrictors RANDOMLY evolved not wasting energy on making venom they don't use.
 
No it's not randomly evolved
 
@sehe no, there are some speciease who's reproduction cycle is dependant on it
 
If you mean the trait was generated from a random error during replication of a cell, then sure
 
Things evolve randomly. The selection is non-random
 
@AngryLettuce well ok, randomly mutated and over many generations those mutations caught on
 
1:15 AM
The mutation is random, evolution isn't
 
@thecoshman I'd be happy to hear which is it
@AngryLettuce Granted.
 
@thecoshman so when I ask 'how come animals have a pain response to heat', part of your answer is 'it’s not a waste of energy' isn’t it?
 
@LucDanton You can put it that way yes
 
The dehydration argument makes sense still
 
@AngryLettuce you’re no coshman!
 
1:16 AM
@sehe Some are as you said, just thrive in those environs, others, which of course I don't know the latin names for, the seed actually requires the seeds to be burnt out; this is how the sees 'knows' a fire has happened and they can start being a TREEEEE!!!
 
you don't get to tell me who I can be or not
 
@LucDanton ergh... no
 
@thecoshman any name will do. "TREEEEE" you say?
 
@thecoshman no?
 
Animals are hurt by hot stuff so they can have more sex instead of being dead
 
1:18 AM
what hot stuff?
 
Being dead tends to reduce the amount of DNA you can spread
nope
 
@sehe Sequoias lol
 
I can't do it any more
 
As a child my mom told me I could be anyone I wanted to be. Turns out this is called Identity Theft.
 
@thecoshman what was wrong with my question?
 
1:18 AM
@sehe kek
 
@LucDanton he missed it
 
@LucDanton well done, I will now not know, when I wake up, if I am hung over, or just that fed up with you.
 
@thecoshman I told you to sleep on it :/
 
@WGhost on his birthday
 
@Borgleader <3
 
1:20 AM
> The function of TRPV1 is detection and regulation of body temperature.
 
@LucDanton Your question isn't "why did animals learn that fire is bad" but "why did that knowledge that fire is bad develop into a pain response", right?
 
@AngryLettuce
 
@jaggedSpire snuggle snuggle /cc @Morwenn @TonyTheLion
 
@Borgleader :D
 
@AngryLettuce naw, physiological aspect only (thecoshman is the one that brought up all the 'fear' and whatnot)
 
1:21 AM
Well I guess that there could have been plenty of other ways of learning that fire = bad
But learning that it is seems inevitable though
 
nothing to do with learning
 
You mean how the trait was acquired or what
 
@AngryLettuce there’s a pain response system right, with obvious benefits to the organism
 
pose une question claire pour avoir une réponse chazal
 
tied to a reflex system and so on
@AngryLettuce c’est trop télé comme référence pour moi ça :(
and I was wondering how come touching a hot thing is painful—not the mechanism per se, but how it evolutionary came to be (and stay)
 
1:26 AM
well I don't know the details but it's likely a long process as usual
 
@AngryLettuce yeah I wish I knew where to ask or look for the fires and things :(
 
some chicken at some point in time had this weird tendency to turn away from hot things so it had more sex and got lotsa babies the end
am I a good evolutionologist
 
animals wouldn't necessarily need to shy away from fires or lava, but there are plenty of things that get very hot in the sun.
 
your mom isn't one of those
 
@AngryLettuce at which point the genome encoded the right proteins that would result in the development of the right kind of sensory neurons, no doubt
 
1:28 AM
@AngryLettuce so burnt my pain response is kicking in
 
@LucDanton yeah but that's simplified ofc
 
that's not a persian cat ...
 
@jaggedSpire yeah I wasn’t sure if 'feeling hot' was part of the nocireception thing, turns out it is!
 
1:30 AM
@AngryLettuce I can make up a non-explanation on the spot on my own
 
@LucDanton I thought you had the right proteins for sarcasm
 
@AngryLettuce pain I get, but why heat specifically
 
also present in the natural world, but less common would be deep sea vents and hot springs
 
@LucDanton because it's nocive in excess?
 
"That's why they call me MOBOT, because there's always one mo' bot" - Bill Graner
10/10 top kek
i wish i was at that level
 
1:31 AM
@AngryLettuce sorry—what would have been a polite (I really want to say more polite) to turn you down?
 
@Borgleader don't worry, you'll reach that lofty height one day. <3
 
@AngryLettuce well now that we know feeling hot is part of the deal we do know that, yes—but I had to dig sources for that, nobody brought it up
 
@LucDanton that wasn't rude but you could've just gone with "no"
 
I asked on several occasions what sort of heat danger an animal would run into :( fires were pointed out but we don’t know for sure on that front (it’s certainly appealing though)
I’m not crazy am I?
 
Step 1: list sources of naturally occuring heat that damages animals
Step 2: fire
 
1:33 AM
1 hour ago, by Luc Danton
@thecoshman indeed hot stoves are a notorious peril of the savannah
@AngryLettuce yes but is it though
I’m seriously asking
I thought 'how often do natural fires occur' is a complicated topic
 
well I don't know next time there's a fire in the landes try and take a nap in there
@LucDanton They occur less now than before
Because humans now take care of forests, they are much less dense, and now also forests decompose (and also less atmospheric oxygen)
 
@AngryLettuce well, how does that place with regards to what animals we know were alive when
or where does that place to where we could confidently (how confident?) say yeah that’s when heat-sensitive nocireceptors evolutionary appeared
 
Well that we don't know. We just know there were more fires then
 
@AngryLettuce we don’t?
 
We as in this room
Surely there must be litterature on the topic
 
1:37 AM
@AngryLettuce bummer
 
@LucDanton Given how universal it seems to be to sense heat and attempt to find a comfortable heat level, it seems to be like it probably goes back to relatively early animals, and may easily have been originally used for things like "stay out of the volcano".
 
@JerryCoffin lol
 
In fact I don't really understand your question, it seems fairly natural to avoid fire relatively immediately, or are you ignifuge because I'm not.
Or whatever the english word is
probably fireproof because fuck rich vocabulary right
 
@AngryLettuce it’s appealing yes, but I don’t know how much of an actual danger fire is and has been
 
._. not sure if serious
 
1:43 AM
in terms of occurence
lightning strikes are also dangerous but AFAIK plenty of organisms get by without much in the way of physiology regarding that, does that make sense?
 
is your question "were forest fires really that common"?
lightning strikes are a p good source of fire yes
 
@AngryLettuce dunno
@AngryLettuce no I meant the actual danger of being nearby a lightning strike
 
likely negligible
wikipedia has a page on wildfire history
 
@AngryLettuce why do you say that for the one, and something else for the other
 
it seems indeed there were p common
@LucDanton because how often does a lightning kill an animal vs a fire?
 
1:46 AM
@AngryLettuce I don’t know, do you?
 
Is it possible to detect difference on runtime of 1 iteration "for" if inside this I have just a "if" ?
 
those are genuine questions
 
depends on the geographic location I guess:
Bushfires in Australia are frequent events during the hotter months of the year, due to Australia's mostly hot, dry climate. Each year, such fires impact extensive areas. While they can cause property damage and loss of human life, certain native flora in Australia have evolved to rely on bushfires as a means of reproduction, and fire events are an interwoven and an essential part of the ecology of the continent. For thousands of years, Indigenous Australians have used fire to foster grasslands for hunting and to clear tracks through dense bush. Major firestorms that result in severe loss of life...
because of the type of trees growing here ...
and the climate
 
@AngryLettuce and it’s not about lightning strikes per se, it was an example
 
I've tried using QueryPerrfomanceCounter
 
1:46 AM
It doesn't take a genius to see that a forest fire has the power to kill many more animals than a single lightning no?
 
@AngryLettuce again, lightning strikes were an example
 
Well I'm not sure where you want to get, I see your point but I genuinely can't think of any other source of heat danger than fire
I think you might be just doubting how prevalent fire is
 
@AngryLettuce insolation is another one by the way
@AngryLettuce I’m not doubting or assuming anything regarding prevalence
I don’t know anything about that prevalence (I’m looking up the aforementioned WP page), and I don’t know anything that would connect prevalence to evolution
do you?
 
@AngryLettuce you sound very similar to pirate there
 
Yes I do, as per wikipedia
 
1:49 AM
@AngryLettuce you sound very similar to puppy there
:D
 
not sure which is worst
 
@AngryLettuce also, pain reflexes don't do anything against lightning strike
@AngryLettuce dehydration was a good point IMO - applies to sun heat and ground radiation. If you learn to avoid the heat you can go with less water for longer
 
the point of this discussion being
 
@sehe yeah but the feeling of thirst is a different mechanism
I was wondering about heat specifically
 
fire kills and that's a fact
being dead is not good for reproduction
therefore animals that learn to avoid fire would have an advantage over those who don't
 
1:52 AM
@AngryLettuce nothing to do with learning, I don’t get why you bring that up
 
way of speech
 
@LucDanton they can cooperate. Why can't the heat sensing contribute to better survival? You don't have to wait until you notice you used more water. You can avoid that when you sense the heat
 
@AngryLettuce Lamarck de fabrique
 
evolution is extracting information from the environment so it's not entirely far fetched to call that learning
 
@AngryLettuce "It's weird that primates would know how to avoid hot stoves, carburateurs, matches and radiators"
 
1:53 AM
even though not strictly correct
 
@sehe yeah heat from the environment I 100% get
again though I had to look up that yes, feeling hot (because the weather is hot) is the same mechanism as burning yourself on the stove
seems obvious in retrospect but hey you gotta do the work
 
:28378260 indeed
 
@LucDanton well glad something became a little clearer. I lost my way to bed again /cc @Borgleader
Night all :)
 
@sehe nighty night
 
let's set luc on fire until he evolves pain for it
 
1:56 AM
@sehe originally it also included "and under the assumption that it was beneficial to some previous species, how come is that still there" (which we found partial answers to, so that’s just for the record)
 
because getting rid of it doesn't provide an advantage apparently
 
@AngryLettuce that’s an answer and you know it
 
of course it is
I provide only high quality contributions
 
@AngryLettuce are you serious here?
 
always
 
1:58 AM
Sep 16 '15 at 8:35, by Anastasiya Asadullayeva
I remember the days where you used to school me about mansplaining
 
those were the days
 
@AngryLettuce well, you almost decided to mansplain babby Lamarck's first theory of evolution so if you truly believe in yourself then I guess you can achieve anything you want
 
Identity theft is a serious crime, Jim
Millions of families suffer every year
 
ya know
I thought I had a genuinely interesting question
now I don’t feel like I want to post what I wonder about out loud here anymore :|
 
well that's what you get for asking questions in lounge
Oct 16 '15 at 8:03, by Gregor McGregor
I am never asking a question in Lounge again
My genome integrated just the right proteins for that
 
2:03 AM
I gotta read the transcript just to see if it was me who destroyed you that time
 
Mansplaining, that's a funny term
 
@AngryLettuce wow I wasn’t even involved
 
impressive
 
you linked to a pdf earlier and it’s not Ctrl-Fable ;_;
 
try saving it as jean-delafontaine.pdf
 
2:06 AM
I don’t get it
nah good joek m8 9/10
 
stop rapptzing
 
I don't think that heat avoidance is purely related to fire
 
Villas throwing some more oil on the topic
 
@VillasV well the nociceptors that fire(hah) when you burn yourself on a hot stove are the very same that trigger when you’re feeling hot, so there’s an obvious benefit to the organism here
 
@LucDanton sure, but that's only one specific utility of heat sensors - not burning to death withouth knowing
 
2:09 AM
I wanted to derail the conversation by mentioning nociraptors but I don't feel like it
 
reptiles for example need to warm themselves up frequently and do so looking for sunny and warm areas
probably early lifeforms had all sorts of reasons to look for specific temperatures
 
@VillasV yeah I don’t know about that
 
hell, even human balls are sensitive to temperature. There's an optimal temperature for sperm generation, that's why we evolved an external sack for them.
 
@JerryCoffin Should fullscreen and resizable enums or...?
 
I don’t know to what degree feeling a wildfire on your skin helps survive or not :/ I don’t know how wildfires work
 
2:10 AM
@VillasV speak for yourself
 
@VillasV there is a thermoregulation system, but it’s separate from nociception
I looked that up as well cus you gotta do the work
 
@LucDanton I know, but the ballsack shrinks back to the inside during the cold because the mechanical regulation is much easier.
 
I love where this is going
 
@AngryLettuce the paper mentions 'involvement of some phylogenetically old parts of the brain' but kinda leaves it at that
@VillasV okay?
 
@Nooble My initial inclination would be to use enums.
 
2:13 AM
We need a GenitalsOverflow
 
@Borgleader :o
 
@AngryLettuce wildfire article links to this
> The fossil record of fire first appears with the establishment of a land-based flora in the Middle Ordovician period, 470 million years ago
so… if we know phylogenetically that nociception of heat pre-dates that then wildfires are out (which we don’t, it’s a hypothetical on my part)
@AngryLettuce do you get why I question those things?
@sehe I’m not a bad citizen am I? :(
 
I am not an biologist
But I am almost sure that wildfire by themselves would not be enough
 
@LucDanton There's a theory that life originated around deep-sea vents. The consequences of getting too close to the outlet there would be quite the biological incentive to avoid heat.
 
great paper on the philogenetics of nociception, not done with it but it brings up sea anemones that may react to contact, but do not react to temperature (i.e. definitively no thermal nociception)
@jaggedSpire how fortuitous
well, I really have no idea how deep sea anemones live lol
 
2:27 AM
Lounge<Biology>
@LucDanton Encyclopedia Britannica says "Tidal to depths of more than 10,000 meters"
 
well, it’s just the one anemone :) we’re actually looking for the opposite, when we can say for sure there is or was thermal nociception—at least we have an upper bound of sorts now
 
@LucDanton Sadly yes
 
indeed.
 
> Using a battery of chemical stimuli it was further shown that some N-cells responded to acid, capsaicin and heat […]
 
hello
 
2:31 AM
@Rapptz hey m8
 
@Rapptz yo
 
luc imitating you grossly
 
@Rapptz hi
 
25 mins ago, by Luc Danton
nah good joek m8 9/10
 
lies & slander
well I mean I did say that
 
2:31 AM
nice & slender
 
lol
wassup
 
ICE & render
 
trying to mansplain to luc that fire hurts for the past 2 hours
 
a long conversation regarding the origin of the pain response to excessive heat
 
should I buy one of those raspberry pis
will I regret my purchase
 
2:33 AM
@AngryLettuce does heat sensation in annelids allow them to get away from wildfires?
 
@jaggedSpire you just made fun of @Nooble's little icicle
 
you should buy a raspberry pie
 
@Rapptz Nah. Thing's cheap.
 
@Borgleader lies & slander
 
@LucDanton experiment and come back to tell us
 
2:34 AM
I need a grant for wildfires
 
too bad our favourite annelid doesn't come in this room anymore
RIP liro
 
trop capillotracté
genre de mega loin quoi
honte à toi
 
no such thing as trop capillotracté
 
@AngryLettuce why sad
 
😍😍😍 https://t.co/BIlhp0vgLw
derp /cc @jaggedSpire
time for nops now
 
2:43 AM
@Borgleader no, don't leave us! D:
/jk
night
 
@LucDanton because it's never ending until we find an authoritative source and I have little hope in that happening within the next couple hours
 
@Borgleader that dog is so incredibly cute
 
@AngryLettuce I don’t question looking for authority though; I question looking for anything
'I’ve come with it on my own and made it all up' doesn’t count as something
 
would asking /r/askscience make everyone happy
 
@LucDanton ie you want an authoritative response
 
2:46 AM
or some other group of people who enjoy answering questions with a high concentration of Master's and PhDs in the subject
 
@jaggedSpire yes reddit is very good at science
good idea
 
@AngryLettuce :P
 
might as well also ask how come a socialist country such as france can actually be developed
 
AskScience seems to keep most of the riffraff out
 
@AngryLettuce do I? it’s not like I trust what I’m reading right now and/or plan on replicating their findings (or rather, the findings they are themselves reporting—this is how removed this all is)
 
2:47 AM
well you are questioning the basic, common group go-to instinct, so yes, you are looking for something more in-depth which is afaik out of reach of this room
 
@AngryLettuce I’m kinda lost on the instinct thing but for the latter point yeah, I don’t expect to find an answer to everything I ask, immediately
I’m curious and want to sate the curiosity so why not try? maybe somebody does know something about it, or maybe they’re not and they’ll find the question interesting as well
is it not worth asking out loud all the same?
 
Not saying it's not worth it but how well do java questions in this room usually go
 
@AngryLettuce you GTFO with your Java
sorry, reflexive response to ".*java question.*"
 
@AngryLettuce we’ve had plenty interesting discussions/questions before though, or so I feel
is that all out by now? cc @sehe
 
I don't know
Usually it's on more documented topics
so we can at least pretend we know shit
 
2:52 AM
@AngryLettuce in the end I did find lots of material though
admittedly right now it has quite a lot of 'yeah we don’t really know that much' but if I have to be honest I was expecting it to an extent
 
Your ignorance of ignorance is unbearable
 
and that’s the kind of answer (or non-answer) that’s still satisfactory to my mind
yeah, someone else did bother to look it up and did the actual work
even though they were not maybe trying to answer my particular question, or any question at all, but that’s also nice in its own way
and I like to learn about that
 
curiosity is not tolerated
 
I also learned that nociception to acidity is also a thing
 
non mais je sais pas de quoi tu parles ça me dérange absolument pas que tu poses des questions
 
2:56 AM
so in addition to wildfires and volcanoes (@JerryCoffin) I’m guessing carelessly strewn about acid vats have been a danger to organisms past
 
y'a pas de persécution ou quoi que ce fusse
 
@AngryLettuce cus I normally enjoy chatting here about whichever topic and seeing a regular blow up caught me off guard
 
but who blew up
 
thecoshman
 
why are you surprised
lol
 
2:57 AM
@LucDanton is the nocireception to acidity in solution?
what kind of sense am I making
 
Pirate has a shortish fuse
 
@jaggedSpire well the paper starts by mentioning lemon juice or vinegar on an open wound(!) but I don’t know if that was meant as a joke
oh it’s not a joke actually
@AngryLettuce discussion is usually reasonably civil though :| cc @ElimGarak
@jaggedSpire if you’re thinking micro-organisms then that’s trickier
 

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