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12:04 AM
@thecoshman Both!
@milleniumbug I will try!! to remember this.
 
@wilx I have good vision, but not at this hour!
¬_¬ I think I've hitting that phase of the break up
 
@thecoshman When I was younger, I had the best vision at a late hour, after a goodly amount of alcohol. It may not have been the most accurate, but it was truly excellent anyway. Seeing such beauty!
 
@JerryCoffin erm... I don't see beauty... maybe the lights aren't red enough
 
@thecoshman wait what. what happened
 
@thecoshman It helps if there are at least a few women who are at least marginally attractive for your vision to...enhance.
 
12:11 AM
Computer: enhance this!
 
how come animals have a pain response to high temperatures anyway
checkmate scientists
 
@sehe she left me back at the start of Novemeber, shit make more sense now bitch?
@LucDanton because that shit destroys your flesh, idiot
 
@thecoshman Hardly. But I'm sad, and even a bit shocked to hear that
 
@thecoshman as do many other things which not every animal can feel, so why that one
 
12:13 AM
@sehe thanks... equally, shit happens
 
<3 <3 <3
 
@LucDanton because it doesn't take much to be hurt by heat
lol, formuty 1
 
could be done 4 years from now
that's like nothing
 
do you not have a proper track yet?
 
of course some people idiots are complaining about possible noise but who cares about them
 
12:14 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Is that why they closed down the streets
 
@thecoshman No, it would be the only really proper racetrack in Poland
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm stunned at the apparent straight corners
 
@BartekBanachewicz opposed to Poland?
@BartekBanachewicz there's the dick I missed
 
@thecoshman indeed hot stoves are a notorious peril of the savannah
 
@sehe hard tracks are good
@thecoshman the country needs this way more than those few thousand people for whom noise levels will rise marginally
 
12:17 AM
LLVM Drops Its Autoconf Build System http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Drops-Autoconf
I don't understand how CMake offers the configuration tests that autotools had
 
@LucDanton most life is destroyed by high heat, does it not seem obvious that one of the first things bacteria would evolve is a way of keeping away from that shit?
@BartekBanachewicz you have HUGE amounts of forest to cut down
 
@sehe still in plans but but but it might actually happen
 
Internal Server Error

500

No response from subprocess (php): The subprocess reported error number 20 when it ended.
sweet, new error from the mail server
 
woah woah woah, what am I playing at, I've been drinking, but not nearly enough for him
 
@thecoshman um?
 
12:18 AM
@thecoshman …are you suggesting that bacteria have nociceptors?
 
I don't think it's in any forest
 
ahhh.... peace
 
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper devops without the devs
 
@thecoshman lol didn't I tell you to f*ck off to IRC scrub
gosh some people
 
@LucDanton no, early simple life forms
 
12:19 AM
w/e raaaaaaaaace traaaaaack
 
probably even when it was only single cell
 
No worries, piwate. Google has got you covered
 
o_0 ok, I can do this, just don't pour any more drink...
I might just make it with only a head tingle
 
@thecoshman sure, but that’s also part of my question
 
In other news that infected mushroom just closed.
 
12:20 AM
@LucDanton you had one?
 
...
 
8 mins ago, by Luc Danton
how come animals have a pain response to high temperatures anyway
 
@sehe I have an infected arm...
@LucDanton because they 'inherited' it
 
Nothing serious, mehopes
 
done, move on.
 
12:21 AM
@thecoshman that’s not an answer
 
@sehe I got pills and cream to treat what looks like a plague boil
@LucDanton yes it is, it just opens more questions
 
@thecoshman it’s all part of the same question
 
@LucDanton I believe it makes cells die, right. Evolutionary it's handy to detect this when it happens and adjust the behaviour... Just making up naive theories here
 
ok, a more full answer would be that there was no advantage to evolving away their natural dislike for that hot stuff
 
@sehe well, so do UV rays and IIRC e.g. humans are absolutely not sensitive to that
 
12:22 AM
@sehe yes, as I said about ten minutes ago, most life forms are destroyed by heat
 
@thecoshman That's the tabloid version of reflexes
@LucDanton It might be harder to detect. A lot of evolution is ... chance
 
@LucDanton humans ARE sensitive to UV, hence sun burn, but we also harness it, as does other life
 
and UV rays are ubiquitous—is that also the case for the sort of heat that animals are sensitive to?
@sehe yes, hence my question
 
(hint: we don't actually know)
 
@luc I swear you are more drunk than me...
 
12:23 AM
@thecoshman sensitive here in the context of the pain response
when you’re in pain from a sunburn, it’s too late (unlike when you put your finger on a hot stove briefly)
 
@LucDanton well, we don't react directly to the UV light...
 
@thecoshman yeah that’s what I said, I brought that up as a counter-example
 
@LucDanton I'd argue that's still 'too late'
@LucDanton well UV is mostly harmless
40c will kill of a lot of stuff
 
@thecoshman it can blind you
 
wait...
do you understand the concept of evolution?
 
12:25 AM
@thecoshman yeah but when does that occur exactly?
@thecoshman do you?
 
well lets take this example
 
> "I felt a great disturbance in the [build system], as if millions of [makefiles] suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something [amazing] has happened." src
Still no clue how CMake does the traditional config detections
Perhaps it has been decided that all those UNIX flavours are overrated
 
we have a life form, it spawns 'children', half natural dislikes the heat that can kill it, the other half don't care about that heat and thus get (nearly all) killed by it. Stands to reason the the third generation will be mostly descended from those that naturally fear heat
 
@thecoshman humour me for a moment will you
 
He's humouring you big time. All you need to do is add popcorn
 
12:28 AM
@LucDanton as always
 
you are familiar with venomous and poisonous animals, are you?
 
@LucDanton not that personally, but conceptually sure
 
how come every single animal that is predated on isn’t venomous or poisonous
 
@sehe you coming to uncon
 
but let’s make it simpler
let’s focus on snakes
 
12:29 AM
@thecoshman nope
 
@LucDanton because it took a while for that freak mutation to happen and by that time, life had divereged
 
there are venomous snake species (as well as a handful of poisonous snakes, but nevermind about them)
 
@LucDanton iirc, all are venomous... technically...
but any way
you were trying to make a point
 
@LucDanton are you trying to say we only can't stand heat because we have these odd sensors. (I know some extremophiles thrive in very hot water)
 
yeah hang on I’m double checking
 
12:30 AM
@sehe human extremophiles?
 
An extremophile (from Latin extremus meaning "extreme" and Greek philiā (φιλία) meaning "love") is an organism that thrives in physically or geochemically extreme conditions that are detrimental to most life on Earth. In contrast, organisms that live in more moderate environments may be termed mesophiles or neutrophiles. == CharacteristicsEdit == In the 1980s and 1990s, biologists found that microbial life has an amazing flexibility for surviving in extreme environments — niches that are extraordinarily hot, or acidic, for example — that would be completely inhospitable to complex organisms. Some...
 
@sehe oh, just normal extremeophiles, that RANDOMLY evolved a tolerance for an extreme climate
 
oh dear, I hope I’m not misremembering and it’s about insects and not snakes
 
hey, want to cringe? There are people out there who would use caps-lock around each letter they want to type in 'big form'
 
@thecoshman or randomly did not become sensitive...
 
12:33 AM
@LucDanton try it anyway
@sehe are you suggesting that life sprung into existence twice?
 
good news, it is snakes
Toxicofera (Greek for "those who bear toxins"), is a clade of scaled reptiles (squamates) that includes the Serpentes (snakes), Anguimorpha (monitor lizards, gila monster, and alligator lizards) and Iguania (iguanas, agamas, and chameleons). Toxicofera contains about 4600 species, (nearly 60%) of extant squamata. It encompasses all venomous reptile species, as well as numerous related non-venomous species. There is little morphological evidence to support this grouping, however it has been recovered by all recent molecular analyses. == Cladistics == Toxicofera combines the following groups from...
 
and ladders!
 
@luc you did have a point right?
 
if I read that right all snake species are toxicofera, but they don’t all use venoms
@sehe I’m wondering about pain response to heat
 
... yes, some 'realised' that they could use the relatively low energy murder device of constricting
 
12:36 AM
so
24 mins ago, by Luc Danton
how come animals have a pain response to high temperatures anyway
 
do you not understand that we don't 'loose' evolved traits simple because we don't use them any more?
@LucDanton because they are a few freak mutations that were able to thrive in such environments
 
I find your style funny, cosh
 
@thecoshman how do you reconciliate that with snakes with impotent venoms
 
@LucDanton venoms are costly, there is an advantage to using constriction rather than venom
 
righto
what is the advantage of a pain response to hot things?
 
12:38 AM
there are constricting snakes that still have potent venom iirc
 
for, say, an ape?
not dying in hot stoves accident?
 
@LucDanton o_0 it stops you getting damaged
 
@thecoshman in what situations?
 
@LucDanton o_0 situations where there is hot stuff
 
...
 
12:38 AM
does that happen often?
 
LAVA!
 
when was the last time an Irish person had to run from a snake?
 
Are we playing the Floor Is Lava
or are we playing The Newbies Are Lava
 
... ignoring my wrist... and what ever conegtations that has
fuck me, I spelled that world!
 
anyway, I did find interesting clues to my question
 
12:40 AM
@jaggedSpire nope, "playing @luc be a fool tonight"
 
@thecoshman my my
 
@LucDanton can you grasp that early life would have been better served by not putting in the 'energy' to tolerate high heats and instead avoid it? (going some where)
 
@LucDanton So it's avoiding peppers :)
 
@sehe no that one is the other way around I’m fairly sure
 
@thecoshman We know you understand evolution in general. As do I. But it's clear the Luc knows a bit of trivia that might be counter intuitive and I find it fascinating. I want to hear it, not repeat over and over that it's counter intuitive
 
12:42 AM
@thecoshman would 'life' (as you put it) be better served by using potent venoms, being sensitive to excessive UVs and ionising radiation as well?
if so, then why isn’t it (for some of it)?
 
@LucDanton answer the question, because we are talking about life that could use venom or need to worry about UV or ionising radiation
 
@sehe I am curious about that Autoconf thing too.
 
@sehe well he should spit it out, or stop acting the fool.
 
@sehe birds are famously not sensitive to capsaicin btw
 
@Nican I don't mind if somehow miraculously CMake makes all that easy /and/ fast. I hate CMake syntax, but I'm willing to sacrifice something
@LucDanton I read that
 
12:44 AM
@thecoshman I have nothing to spit out, I’m looking for answers (that you don’t have)
 
@ThePhD before clicking on that link I thought you were pissed off about pimpl
 
@thecoshman ah. Is that so. You could ask, instead of acting out :)
@LucDanton Oh. Or maybe not :)
 
@LucDanton don't forget that the very earliest of life forms would have only been fighting the environment; don't get too hot, don't get too cold, don't dry out etc. Getting eating or having to hunt were rather low down on the priority list
@sehe I'm not acting o_0
 
> enabling the bats to detect the warmth radiating from the skin of their victims.
I don't know how this translates in pain perception, but at least it makes some sense (I can detect a heat source at some distance pretty reliably)
 
@LucDanton Find, I'll go to bed.
 
12:45 AM
@thecoshman is 'don’t get eaten by predators that wouldn’t survive a stingful of venom' on that list?
 
@LucDanton only once such a thing has an advantage
why put effort into avoid dangers that don't exist when you could be making more 'children'?
 
@thecoshman hence you agree that just saying 'X is beneficial' is not on its own an answer to 'how come do organisms do X'
don’t you see it?
 
it's not that "X is beneficial" it's that "doing X makes you more likely to spread on your DNA"
 
same difference; well not quite, we are getting there now
 
at it's crudest forms, life is just DNS trying to spread itself out as much as possible
DNA that can avoid dangers and find similar DNA to spread with as much as possible is the sort of DNA that 'thrives'
at some point, some DNA realised that 'hot should be avoid', it avoided that hot shit, and was able to make more DNA like itself
 
12:49 AM
what about non-constricting snakes with impotent venoms (yes, they exist)
 
at a much latter point, some DNA realised that if it does ~something~ it can hide in this hot place and thrice there
 
@sehe Personally, on the design perspective, SCons is still my favorite.
 
@LucDanton they evolved to make use of other techniques
 
@Nican It, too, doesn't have support for config detections AFAIR
 
@thecoshman back to my question then
38 mins ago, by Luc Danton
how come animals have a pain response to high temperatures anyway
 
12:50 AM
fuck sake, there are peacocks in the world! look at them! what the hell are those tails all about? They show to other DNA like them that they have the balls feathers to wave all other the place like a big fancy bastard, so FUCK ME AND MAKE MORE DNA!!!!
¬_¬ please see my response from 38 minutes ago
 
@thecoshman we’ve already addressed it
follow along will you
 
Mental note: scientists have patience.
 
especially if you mean 'animals' as in the kingdom
@sehe ¬_¬ they also tend to talk to fellow scientists
 
This is an anthropologist role-play theatre
 
@LucDanton sure...
 
12:52 AM
@sehe sorry, didn’t realise it was in there
 
@sehe I prefer the term Muppet show, but some Jim guy has beef with that
 
Jim?
 
@sehe :O get you some 5 year old culture! Kim Henderson (sp?) the guy who started the Muppets
 
Kim or Jim? Never watched the muppets, sorry.
 
@sehe you've seen his work
 
12:54 AM
Oh.
You must be right.
 
think any live action puppet in film, that's his work (until he died)
 
@sehe I don’t get the thing about bats though
 
@LucDanton It seems to me they were arguing the (surface) sensitivity to heat is a mechanism to help locate prey
 
@LucDanton look, I don't want to sound that rude, but you clearly don't get how 'random' shit evolves. If you can't grasp why animals evolved a natural dislike for hot shit, well... yeah, you don't 'get' evolution.
 
@sehe I would have thought that’s on contact though, now I’m wondering
 
12:55 AM
@LucDanton oh, bat's evolved simply to please metal heads
 
(radiation heat. I agree that infra read vision is much more effective...)
 
@thecoshman do we have to go back to the snakes again?
maybe I should clarify: when I said impotent venoms, I didn’t necessarily mean in terms of toxicity
some snakes produce toxic venoms (that’s redundant AFAIR), but don’t deliver it
 
> compatability
ruined it for me
 
and now that I think about it, constriction is a red-herring
 
@LucDanton If you can't ship it then it doesn't exist
Applies both to software and venom delivery
 
12:58 AM
venom works on predators much, much larger than the would-be prey, constriction doesn’t
 
speak for yourself
 
so @thecoshman, all snakes are Toxicofera but they don’t all deliver venom
in that light, how come animals have a pain response to heat?
 

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