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9:00 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes zanchi right
 
@Xeo @Andy got me a backup :D
 
Xeo
heh
What's that on top of?
 
@Prismatic lol there's a tiny penis icon in the bottom logo line
 
@Mr.kbok and they lived happily never after
 
Besides, given that Intel has opened up their documentation, there's a higher likelihood of it running multiple displays there than on Nvidia. My integrated GPU supports virtual addressing among other things (DX12/Vulkan capable), it's far from shit :P
 
9:01 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes was it feeling lonely? :P
 
@ElimGarak My concern was more about whether your particular integrated chip is capable of driving 3 screens.
 
@MaiLongdong ENOTFOUND
 
@ElimGarak Virtual addressing has been available for the past 3-4 years
 
@Griwes 'tis, I do it sometimes.
 
@MaiLongdong im not seeing it
 
9:02 AM
@MaiLongdong Well, many people belong to the generation just prior to that.
 
So I got 2 people looking for a penis icon on a space poster, nice.
 
My previous personal PC being one of them.
 
Not a bad day
 
You have low standards
 
@Xeo on a train platform bench.
 
9:04 AM
(It's between the SFG logo and the text below, slightly dimmed)
 
Now I should learn OH and do two at once.
That would get me tips at the train station for sure.
 
@MaiLongdong not going to reopen the tab
 
Your loss
 
ikr
 
So apparently Kanye West wants to run for president in 2020
 
Xeo
9:07 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes aaah, now I see it.
 
Not sure if good bad or disastrous
 
@TonyTheLion That doesn't surprise me.
 
Xeo
That looked like some kinda liquid underneath
 
@TonyTheLion apparently Kanye West is good at crowd manipulation when high on joints
 
Does anybody have a multiGPU setup of AMD graphics cards that come with those separate cooling parts? Where do you put them?
 
9:08 AM
@TonyTheLion this worries me.
 
@sehe that I fell for it?
 
That you are contemplating it could be "good" o.O
 
@sehe gotta leave all options on the table
 
No you donald
 
I suppose I'll need a new case as well.
 
9:11 AM
> personal PC
 
I knew someone was going to latch onto it. What do you call an office PC? OC?
OG Loc?
 
@Elim "office box" or "work box"
"box" > "PC"
 
That sounds better than office personal computer. I'll take it.
Although, we call them "kutija" here. (box)
 
How 'bout workstation?
 
radna stanica
 
9:15 AM
@E_net4 "means" specific other things (mainly specs)
 
Box sounds good. We'll go with box.
 
@ElimGarak Inferior non-American poepele speaking non-American!
 
'murica.
 
yeah longdong so wannabe a fat murican
 
9:17 AM
Definitely going to need a new case.
And screws.
 
nice communist themed PC
 
I'll take a nazi-themed one if the components are right.
 
That's going to cripple your sound card.
 
With a shirt "Hitler did nothing wrong!"
 
True
 
9:22 AM
Great. Lambda-related MSVC ICEs.
 
Ice those motherfuckers.
 
Fuck this
Everything is broken to hell and back :<
 
repro pls
 
concise repro pls
no code dump pls
 
I'm having a lot of ICEs with constexprs
But lambda no
 
9:23 AM
@AndrewPeters I'll take that. I'll need your name and address to write you an invoice.
I'll also have to look up how VAT works in your country.
 
I remember a fellow from Nvidia asking a simple repro from a dude that had an issue.
 
what would you do if they don't pay up?
 
He posted his codebase on github.
 
@MaiLongdong ICE repros are a pain to get.
 
stalk 'em on your bike?
 
9:24 AM
@ElimGarak lol
 
I know it's about lambdas because the fix was to turn it into a class.
 
And also to OneDrive and something else.
 
meh
456
Q: Warlords of Documentation: A Proposed Expansion of Stack Overflow

Kevin MontroseIt’s been 7 years and 10,000,000+ Questions since Stack Overflow was launched. The amount of good that has been done for the field - all the developers helped, all the person-hours saved, all the beginners who grew into professionals - is hard to overstate. I cannot express how proud I am of what...

not sure if that's a good idea
 
You can measure a man's experience by the repros he gives you.
 
I always have one big problem in programming.
 
9:25 AM
@MuhammadRaza use jquery
 
On the other hand, a man from Avalanche Studios encountered an issue that wasn't even his, wrote a small repro project and shared it.
 
Whenever i create any software. It only run on my computer on another computer not. I use mfc c++ Multi Byte.
Please Can any senior programmer give me the true direction. How make software which are able to run on every computer without problem?
 
@MuhammadRaza Other computers detect MFC and multibyte as clues to halt and catch fire.
 
@MarcoA. oo
 
@MuhammadRaza use java
 
9:27 AM
@chmod 711 i only know c++.
 
That's an audacious statement.
 
@MarcoA. Terrible idea.
Also conflating "reference" with "documentation".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes people usually come here for copy-pasta'n try. At least 90% of them. Documentation will just annoy them.
 
Any one explain why this happen? And what is the solution?
 
and might be happily ignored
 
9:29 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Agreed.
 
inb4 read the damn documentation storm
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Anything can be a reference!
 
456 updoots whoah
 
6 secs ago, by Luc Danton
@R.MartinhoFernandes Anything can be a reference!
Refer to the above.
 
@MuhammadRaza Shut down your machine and pursue a career in hydroponics.
 
9:30 AM
9 secs ago, by Luc Danton
6 secs ago, by Luc Danton
@R.MartinhoFernandes Anything can be a reference!
done
 
@Elim Garak Hahahah.
 
@MarcoA. Your source is not trustworthy.
 
@MuhammadRaza Oh god, the juxtaposition.
 
Any book or document?
 
@MuhammadRaza Hydroponics for dummies.
 
9:32 AM
@MuhammadRaza isn't multibyte subject to code pages and language settings and what not? don't do that
 
Ask on SO. Get downvoted. Lose chat privileges. ... Lounge profits.
 
Regrettably chat privilege can't be lost
 
@ElimGarak I thought I was cynical
 
@TonyTheLion I embraced my inner cat.
 
I can tell
 
9:34 AM
But seriously, MFC and multi-byte. That's simply asking for it.
 
> How make software which are able to run on every computer without problem?
thats hard
and because MFC and multi-byte - even harder
 
Every computer with something that has Microsoft in the acronym.
 
basically you've fucked yourself up the arse using that. (Pardon my French)
 
Merde.
 
9:36 AM
@MaiLongdong it can be missplaced though
 
I want to meet someone new in the Lounge. But I am afraid they'll hurt my feelings with malloc. What should I do?
 
@TonyTheLion no, all you have to do is get one machine that can execute it, then move that one machine all over the place and physically place it on the other machine you want to run the code on
@ElimGarak just be free
 
@thecoshman lol
 
Say heeeeeeeeeey, say whaaaa, say heeeeey. sehe™
 
4 minutes - 15 upvotes? Who can read such a long post so fast? — Bhargav Rao 18 hours ago
Significant "community push" detected
 
9:39 AM
People acting like sheep, what's new?
 
@ElimGarak wat
 
@sehe Have an internet hug!
 
Ooo. Dem feels
 
Alright, now, let's insult someone to balance it out. Where's telkitty?
 
user1804599
aaaa
 
user1804599
9:41 AM
erlang docs are offline
 
user1804599
y u no 100% uptime
 
user1804599
now I need shitty google cache without CSS
 
Come back to C++.
Animating on top of SVG is so time consuming.
 
Come back to BCPL.
 
4TRAN.
Thinking about getting the Mad Max game. Seems like it isn't shit.
 
9:45 AM
4TRAN.org/b/
 
Ell
Hi
 
Wait, I just opened Polygon and GameSpot. Harsh reviews.
 
1
A: Warlords of Documentation: A Proposed Expansion of Stack Overflow

LundinWe already have a form of documentation in the tag wikis. Now consider what problems there are with the information in tag wikis: It is most often incomplete, if non-existent, and always worse than what can be found from more official sources. The quality of the information is questionable. Mos...

That's also is my argument there. Tag wikis are a huge success. Let's amplify that...
 
@ElimGarak I think that's cute tech
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh god, what is broken now?
 
9:49 AM
Generic lambdas.
 
Generic lambdas.
 
Generic lambdas.
 
Generic lambdas.
 
Generic lambdas.
 
user1804599
Generic lambdas.
 
9:50 AM
I already had to replace three instances of them with regular classes so that it compiles on this piece of garbage.
 
we didit redit
 
Generic lambdas.
Oh sod it
 
Generic lambdas
 
It's all bullshit.
 
user1804599
.
 
9:50 AM
.
 
Generic lambdas.
 
regarding this SO documentation thing... I think cppreference does a good enough job.. wouldn't C++ just boil down to one topic, "go here"
 
snackoverflow and bad ideas
they are married
moving on
 
@thecoshman It sticks to the Standard stuff though.
 
StackOverflow is about the reach the apex of its glory. And then it shall be extinguished... By the Reapers.
 
9:51 AM
Rule of thumb: in Visual Studio C++ feature tables, read "No" as "No", and "Yes" as "Yeah, right".
 
user1804599
 
@thecoshman Now we just need cppreference.com to cover Boost as well.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why are you trying to do this "using vc++" thing?
 
@thecoshman cough. there are other things too. But yeah. I'd say more sites like that should exist.
@elyse missing ; COMMIT
 
@Griwes Work.
 
9:51 AM
lets take Wikipedia as an example for "documentation" edited by the world
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes :/
 
@TonyTheLion yes
 
@TonyTheLion Wikipedia is not documentation.
 
Let's delete the internet and never speak to each other again.
 
user1804599
@Morwenn was done in the past to some extent.
 
9:52 AM
@TonyTheLion So it's a terrible example of that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes thats why I said "documentation"
 
Let's observe that, though irrelevant, Wikipedia is a splendid success story
4
 
@elyse :o
 
well obviously other libraries need to documented, but core C++ is covered well enough by cppreference, no?
 
what's your point, bubba (yes)
 
user1804599
9:53 AM
Boost documentation is existent but awful.
 
I think somebody else will eventually do a better job than the already bloated SE network.
 
@thecoshman ...which is a wiki!
 
> The name Robert is a Germanic given name, from Old High German Hrodebert "bright with glory" (a compound of hruod "fame, glory" and berht "bright").
the more you know
 
What does 'camen' mean then
 
@Griwes yes... more specifically, one we don't need to go and copy over to SO
 
Ell
9:53 AM
Why isnt Wikipedia documentation? O.o
 
@thecoshman we're not
end of story
 
@TonyTheLion Take cppreference instead.
@Ell It's an encyclopedia.
 
@TonyTheLion ¬_¬ vlad
 
user1804599
ooooh
 
user1804599
I have Erlang manpages installed.
 
9:55 AM
Wikibooks used to have good things on a handful of topics, but it’s bitrotten a lot and lost popularity or something IME. Is it comparable/relevant?
 
user1804599
Nice.
 
@thecoshman Sure. But for other stuff such a thing would be welcome. At least a bit.
 
Ell
Is documentation specifically for software?
 
@elyse So much generalization
 
9:56 AM
@elyse I'd say it varies wildly
 
Ell
Why is an encyclopedia not documentation?
 
@Ell for 'things you program' :\
 
user1804599
et:phone_home/4 is my favourite OTP function.
 
Alright guise, time to focus on work a little more intensely. Try not to destroy anything while I'm gone. ( I want to see, too )
 
@LucDanton good one to contribute at the meta q?
 
9:57 AM
@LucDanton I've always found wikibooks to be of low quality.
@Ell 1) because of its summary nature; 2) because of its general nature; 3) because of its secondary source nature.
 
user1804599
brb lunch
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah the good stuff is (was) very limited. Although I’m more of the opinion that the rest is unfinished/too rough rather than bad per se, if that’s a a saving grace at all.
@R.MartinhoFernandes You consider that documentation must be authoritative?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So a secondary source is worse that an almost non existent primary source?
 
Primary != authoritative.
An encyclopedia only rehashes other sources.
 
There's lots of kinds of information that have nothing like an authoritative source - or where the authoritative source sucks terribly.
 
Ell
10:02 AM
Wikipedia has some primary stuff I think
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why can’t documentation do it?
 
If it improves them with more information it's not a good encyclopedia.
@Ell Promptly deleted.
 
@Ell afaik thats not allowed on wikipedia
 
Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources. To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented. (This policy of no original research does not apply...
@LucDanton only
If you want good non-official documentation, you don't want to simply stick to the official documentation (unless it's already good to start with).
 
Were you describing things that make an encyclopedia, or things that make an encyclopedia but won’t fit documentation (which is kinda what Ell asked)?
 
10:04 AM
Does anyone know what happens if I select on a file descriptor provided by mmap? I'll try but asking anyway
 
@LucDanton The latter.
 
k for only
 
(Actually, wikipedia tends to be tertiary for NPOV)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What’s the difference FTR?
I.e. what does 'authority'/'authoritative' actually mean here, because I think I have a good grip on 'primary'.
 
10:08 AM
It's authoritative if it is word of god, i.e., you can't doubt its veracity.
 
Oh, you can quote primary lies then :D
 
But a primary source can be a third-party just fine, if they're relaying information on something they were involved in.
 
I’m sceptical of the distinction.
 
Mary: "John was here and then went home"
John: "I just went out for a smoke"
Mary is relaying primary information: even though it's false, it is original; she's not relaying what someone told her.
John is the authority on the matter of whether he went home (yeah, I know John could lie about that but we have to believe him to a degree)
 
From an NPOV encyclopaedic view I don’t see why either should have authority where the other wouldn’t though.
Why should John be the foremost authority on where John is?
 
10:13 AM
Because he is there. Yes, he could be lost, I know. Should I get a better constructed example?
Ha!
 
No, I think I appreciate the example as is.
 
He can be unconscious, which makes him definitely not know where he is.
 
I think it’s my distrust of 'authority' that’s showing up :)
 
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 15 mins ago, by ThePhD
(And now I have 20 stackexchange rep, woo)
 
10:20 AM
anarchist
 
I return.
Ish. I think. It's working. I can type at least.
 
@ThePhD hi
 
@ThePhD whyd you disappear for a bit there
 
10:24 AM
@ThePhD :O
 
@ThePhD HAIL
We got Bartek and PhD back in the same day what is going on
 
Xeo
There are times were I really wish you could automagically derive == and != for C++ structs or classes...
 
Bartek's soul called to me.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes are you have to explain primary vs secondary sources?
 
@Xeo std::rel_ops?
 
10:27 AM
I am have a lot of things.
 
Xeo
That's relative operators... < and > and stuff
 
@ThePhD Don't use rel_ops.
 
Xeo
and needs == implemented :P
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you can have shit too
 
Seriously, what is the question?
 
10:28 AM
@Xeo Would bool operator== () const = default be a thing, then?
... Wasn't there a paper for that?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I meant 'having'
 
@thecoshman No. Primary vs authoritative.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah, well at lest that is a bit counter-intuitive
 
@ThePhD On rel_ops: chat.stackoverflow.com/search?q=rel_ops&room=10. There's a clear trend in there.
 
Xeo
10:30 AM
@ThePhD I wish :<
 
@ThePhD More like there are tons of paper on comparison recently.
And Stroustrup's "default comparisons" one seems to be getting traction.
 
The one I linked is Smolsky's
Do you have Strostroups, and is it fundamentally different?
@R.MartinhoFernandes So it does suck. Rough.
@Borgleader Don't let RapphD die, the room's been quiet for 5 days!
 
@ThePhD Stroustrup's one is "let the compiler define operator== and operator!= by default, even if we didn't ask for it.
 
@Morwenn That sounds just as good, actually.
 
From what I've heard, people were pretty much against the idea two meetings ago, but many changed their opinion and are in favour of the idea since the previous meeting.
 
10:33 AM
> == is not generated for a class with a user-defined copy or move
I.... guess that makes sense.
Implies the object isn't "regular".
 
Well, the main use case is to define them by default for PODs.
 
Well, yeah.
I know a million classes where I could use that right now.
Also, did the std:: ever decide to define std::hash by default for enums?
 
Xeo
@Morwenn aggregates, please
@ThePhD don't think so
MSVC does, but libstdc++ doesn't IIRC
 
VC++ does it as a courtesy but g++/clang++ are breaking my heart.
 
@Morwenn I think for PODs it's broken.
+1 for aggregates
Aggregates enforce no invariants.
 
10:35 AM
g++ 6.0 does it.
 
PODs can enforce invariants (via private + friend).
So op== for all PODs is not good.
 
@Xeo Well, that. I need more coffee to recall the entire terminology of the different kinds of types.
Anyway, I guess that I could remove many LOCs in some of my libraries with such a feature.
 
Xeo
My main need right now is for structs that just group together some stuff, but don't do anything else by themselves
 
Try std::tie-ing them together?
Also std::tie is a shit.
 
I should watch more Donald Trump for my own amusement
 
10:40 AM
@ThePhD Not having to use std::tuple features when you don't need std::tuple would be great.
 
Xeo
@ThePhD still needs me to type the stuff out. :/
 
@Morwenn I meant as a current patchjob.
@Xeo vOv you're using C++!
 
lol++
 
Someone should propose a paper to amend std::tie so that it can be made to operator= with anything that responds to tuple_size and get<I>. Those should be the only criteria necessary.
 
Xeo
I don't have to do much, I only need to add one line to a operator!= whenever I add a member, but it's annoying and can easily be forgotten
@ThePhD std::tie is nothing special
It just gives you a tuple of references
 
10:41 AM
@Xeo But it should be, because that's how people are shipping "multiple return values".
 
Xeo
it's just a tuple
a tuple is a tuple is a tuple :P
 
Well, it should be an advanced tuple.
 
Xeo
Don't special case shit that doesn't need special-casing
 
No.
If you make something that responds to tuple_size and get<I> but doesn't convert to a tuple, your thing needs fixing, not tuple.
 
Too many people wanting to special-case tuples when we could improve structs instead.
 
10:43 AM
> your thing needs fixing
 
If I have a triple with first, second, and third members, I want it to play nice.
 
By the way, there's still no way to have an ADL get, right?
 
@ThePhD op tuple<A, B, C>
 
Xeo
@Morwenn huh? you can do that.
 
An implicit conversion operator? :c
 
10:44 AM
@Morwenn ?
I've used ADL get a ton.
 
@Xeo I thought ADL didn't work when you had to manually provide one of the template parameters?
 
Xeo
@Morwenn You either wrap it with a fallback, or just using <fallback here>; before calling get
 
@ThePhD You prefer an implicit ctor that will always apply instead of an implicit conversion operator that applies in select cases?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I prefer an op= on a type that sets each element up to tuple_size<Right>.
 
op= without a matching ctor?
Wait, you don't even want the sizes to match?
 
10:48 AM
My driving goal for this is multiple return values with std::tie.
 
std::tie makes a tuple.
It already works.
(It sucks)
 
It works if what's on the right is a pair or a tuple.
 
Or anything else compatible.
 
Xeo
btw, we should rename std::pair to std::couple.
 
and std::tie to std::marry
 
10:50 AM
Well, in the case of return types (which must be a single element), you either return a tuple (and drop the ability to have named values), or you create a struct and then have to go into those structs and tag them with op tuple<A, B, C>
This isn't good when it comes to working with types you don't own (e.g., library types an the like from other places).
 
@TonyTheLion std::party
 
@Xeo Does that joke really work in English? It does in French.
 
@thecoshman std::needs_more_alcohol
 
std::named_tuple
 
@LucDanton "a couple of things"
 
10:53 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes What’s the difference with a pair of things?
 
@LucDanton yes
 
also couple, like co-tuple, as in 2-tuple
 
to couple: to have sexual intercourse
 
@LucDanton not much really, 'pair' just that little bit more explicate
 
Ah, it’s not that widespread but 'couple' is indeed used for the ordered pair.
That or Google failed me.
 
Ell
10:57 AM
I wouldn't use couple to mean ordered in every day use. Then again I wouldn't with pair either. Then agaen everyday use vOv
 
@Ell I meant the mathematical usage.
 
^ agreed
well balls to mathematical uses
 

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