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8:00 PM
@ElimGarak Intel is doing a pretty good job of keeping Skylake's architecture hidden.
 
@fredoverflow another victim of education rated "arrays are pointers" on scale of 0 to 10
 
I still can't find shit about the execution engine.
 
Yeah, but they promised to make it all public as soon as they're ready. Whatever that means. :/
 
Yeah, that doesn't mean shit. lol
 
It's done when it's done. Sheesh guys.
don't badger poor nvidia!
 
8:02 PM
That said, based on the latency tables as well as other commentary, I have been able to reverse engineer part of the execution engine mostly involving the FPU.
But obviously that's not as good as being able to see a diagram of it.
 
@Mysticial Time to get a microscope out!
 
Yeah, but getting some good estimates / guesses is always great. With many vendors, that's all you ever get.
 
@Nooble Won't help. I don't even have a Skylake chip.
 
@Mysticial combine the microscope with a telescope and look at someone else's
 
For example, if the GTX970's docs were published when it went on sale, the diagram showing the way they crippled the architecture to make it "the 970" would immediately show that the memory bandwidth was fucked on the last block of memory. And you don't exactly "miss that", whatever their engineers say. It's a bold lie.
 
8:06 PM
I would need a telescope that can either see through the earth or see around curved bodies since they don't exist in North America right now. lol
 
hm, so a neutrino telescope
 
Ell
Couldn't you just look at something reflective in space?
 
Or call Intel and ask them to stop dicking around and upload some pdfs. Dammit. I've got quite a collection of docs, ever since Sandy Bridge.
 
Bleh, MS is taking the "maybe it's a defect in the standard. nothing we can do about that now" route :(
 
@ThePhD Does your OBJ loader work?
Because if it does, consider donating it to me.
 
It is high time Microsoft went the route of Apple and allow us to select the damn compiler. God, I am annoyed these days. Everyone is full of shit and/or trying to sell me shit.
 
@ElimGarak they do let you select it - if you have one installed. Like clang-cl :D
but it's far from "completely working"
 
HELL o
 
@Nooble It's stupid messy, thugh.
 
Yeah, that. :( I have a hard-on for completeness. Or at least, close. For example, Nvidia supports async compute... But not quite what you'd expect.
 
8:12 PM
@ThePhD I want it!
 
My loaders were written early one when I was getting used to text vs. binary and has a p. shit interface.
No, no you don't, it's not even written against ISO C++. It's written against my engine and a bunch of shit like it.
 
:(
 
@ElimGarak yeah it kinda sucks when the binary isn't complete because destructors are missing for some reason...
 
@ThePhD ISO C? wtf?
 
8:13 PM
If only there was a way to ensure that there positions.size() == texcoords.size().
 
@melak47 C++, sorry.
 
And they keep insisting on not breaking ancient legacy stuff that was malformed and degenerate to begin with. I mean, what the fuck. It's 2015. Break them.
 
legacy support is important
 
@ElimGarak That would probably be breaking the last advantage MS has
 
@snipe No :(
 
8:14 PM
 
So far I haven't heard any further news on their plans to maybe release compiler and library updates more frequently (and not just "previews"). I don't want to wait 2 years for these fixes :(
 
OTOH just introduce a new shiny standard compliant mode
 
buisnesses and some LEDC's still use older hardware
 
or just fix the bugs /Za has
 
and also for testing purposes
 
8:15 PM
I'LL TAKE ANYTHING RIGHT NOW. (NOT A COCK.)
 
and make your headers compile on it
@ElimGarak also what are you expecting from a company that relies on vendor lock-in
 
@unordered_meow eh, standard compliance even when they agree it should work differently, but standard doesn't explicitly say it should is what gives you this: void(*fptr)() noexcept = []() noexcept {}; // error, can't convert from noexcept lambda to noexcept func ptr
 
@melak47 In VS2015 they split up the stdlib into several parts so that each part can be versioned and fixed independently.
 
@Puppy yay, but most of the problems I run into are compiler related :(
 
Ell
Ah fucking humongous centipede monster
 
8:18 PM
currently I rarely run into cl compiler problems, although they are fucking annoying when they do occur.
 
user406009
@Mysticial That question does seem to be legitimately in the subset shared by C and C++ though.
 
however, the fact that they released no less than six (and more I think) previews of VS2015 is a big improvement.
 
user406009
It's not like one of those "How do I turn an integer into a string" questions.
 
@Puppy I have this struct with a bunch of function pointer members, which I intialize with lambdas. If there's more than 2 of them, the compiler goes nuts with syntax errors, unless I surround the lambdas with parantheses...
 
lol function pointer members
 
8:20 PM
"Visual Studio is busy"... I just fucking started it up, what the fuck are you doing?
 
C interop?
 
@melak47 it's not implementations' responsibility to fix issues with the standard
gcc has both extension-mode and standard-mode for a reason
 
if you've used NSDMIs that's a bit buggy too
 
@unordered_meow they had no trouble adding weird and useless extensions in the past
 
those extensions weren't useless
 
8:23 PM
I think you offended YouTube
 
um...
Are we trying to kick this guy?
 
do I get a say?
because I don't lurk enough to know if they are a regular or not :/
 
@snipe You again?
 
We'll see about that.
 
8:24 PM
snipe kills dimbledore
 
rekt
 
Who said he's unkickable?
 
he did
 
StackOverflow needs moderation features for room owners. This is bullshit.
 
@ElimGarak they have them
RO's can mute-kick
not the best solution, but it kinda works.
 
8:25 PM
That's pretty shit. Banhammers work only.
 
did someone order popcorn?
 
@Mysticial I am
 
@JonClements always swoops in after me
must be a UK delay
 
> Clang has made impressive strides in standards conformance and diagnostics and is fast becoming the preferred C++ compiler for non-Windows platforms.
 
> for non-Windows platforms.
 
8:26 PM
Yes, VC++ guys, only on non-Windows platforms...
ahahahah, exactly!
 
Out of curiosity, does anyone have stats on how much (if any) macro substitution slows down compilation times? (and I do mean an obscene amount of them)
 
@ElimGarak To be fair, they're not exactly wrong.
 
God, can't they admit defeat and save face?
 
Legacy is hard to wash away.
And even then, most organizations don't give a shit and just next-next-install Visual Studio.
 
@melak47 which is a different issue, what I'm saying is if they want to introduce stuff, but are afraid to break stuff, they can introduce "quirks mode", like with IE (except there, you can afford it be non-default)
 
8:27 PM
So of course they'll stick to VC++
 
is there a c++ for beginners chat/forum?
 
What annoys me is that the only reason Clang support is there is because of Android and iOS apps. And their projects to make them run on Windows (mobile and otherwise). And not because they're genuinely interested in improving Visual Studio.
 
also Clang has no decent tooling on Windows.
 
oh wait, compile times
 
@ElimGarak if they put work into clang instead of VC++, it would probably take no time at all to get it binary compatible and working and debuggable :(
but that's just impossible, clang is an apple thing!
 
@Puppy tooling like what
 
OpenGL was dead for years, admittedly. There were people who had issues coming to terms with that, though. It's like losing grandpa. It's hard.
 
I dunno really
I don't work professionally with CG anymore, which is kind of sad.
 
@melak47 Like build systems, like debuggers, like linkers, like core language features (e.g. exceptions on x64)
 
@BartekBanachewicz I wonder how much more work is involved in getting that to run though
 
8:31 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I like how OSX and iOS are absent
 
@BartekBanachewicz the metric is pointless unless the code of both demo's is open source
 
Well, mobile stuff notwithstanding, of course. But that ought to go away now that Vulkan is around. Although MS and Apple fractured the battlefield with DX12 on mobile and Metal on mobile.
 
@thecoshman there's no point if you have to ask that question, FYI
do I need to say more to comment about Metal?
 
Yeah, but Apple.
(that's the answer) They've never really appreciated games.
 
fuck Apple
7
 
8:33 PM
they appreciate speed and power consumption
 
@ElimGarak yeah, I'll start learning Vulkan when it becomes less alien
 
They are not dropping Metal, although I would giggle if they did.
 
@unordered_meow what in particular? Their sales team, design team, coding team, engineers?
 
@Puppy huh, exceptions only work on x64 for me
 
seriously, fuck people who say such idiotic things as "fuck 10 thousand people creating great products as a company"
 
8:34 PM
@BartekBanachewicz the design team in particular, I think
 
that would be MSVC-compatible exceptions, presumably.
 
I get you dislike that iphones don't hit your wallet's sweet spot
 
oh yeah, also, like standard libraries, ABI support libraries, and other such mandatory support libraries.
 
that doesn't mean Apple isn't full of competent people doing great job
 
their closed ecosystem and API badness
 
8:34 PM
Nah, I use iPhones exclusively. But still, fuck Apple. Also, fuck Konami. Fuck the entire VC++ team.
 
@Puppy feature creep much? :p
 
@unordered_meow yes, it's almost like every other company creates much better APIs
like WinAPI
 
@melak47 The other side has features. If you don't have features then how can you ever compete? A Standard library and always-working language features are not "feature creep", they're the absolutely basic minimum, and Clang doesn't even have that.
 
Also, why is fucking signifying something bad? Isn't fucking pleasant? Fuck someone ought to be a compliment.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Do you actually work on games that run on an Apple platform?
 
8:36 PM
@BartekBanachewicz the lack of good things doesn't spare what there is from being shit.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I did.
 
@Puppy stop making me sad :(
 
I use Clang on Windows so make no mistake, I love Clang.
 
Altough I didn't use the OS specific APIs much, I've heard at least the same amount of complaints about Android APIs as about Apple
 
but the reality is that it's simply not even remotely competitive.
LLVM-VS is their best shot by miles to simply hijack the MSVC environment, which would solve all those problems at a stroke.
 
8:37 PM
I mean, sure, why not go full retard and "fuck Apple, Google, Microsoft and Mozilla for good measure"
 
fuck Google and Microsoft
 
@BartekBanachewicz Actually, fuck them all.
 
Android sucks
 
don't forget Intel
 
Intel is good. Intel feeds me docs.
 
8:38 PM
no their CPUs aren't free
 
???
 
It's not about the price, it's about a lot of different stuffs which can simply be condensed into fuck <something>.
 
thank god my company isn't known enough to be fucked I guess
 
user406009
Darn, I think StackOverflow is onto StarGazer. They took the names out of the event messages.
 
user406009
Luckily, there is one more source where the usernames are still available.
 
8:39 PM
@Prismatic I like how you included WinXP
 
lol, Windows XP. Its name is mocking you.
 
Ell
I like ARM
 
I like ARM, too.
 
@ElimGarak cough
 
Ell
They seem to be good guys
 
8:40 PM
@набиячлевэлиь I didn't, it was on the site
 
I like my arms as well
 
LEG makes some nice products.
 
I wonder how many people still use XP
 
in other news, my first day at the new job was cool
 
Ell
Many many Chinese people
 
8:40 PM
As in, they haven't fired you yet?
 
my closest coworker in my team is into Haskell
 
oh wait, I backtrace my previous statement about Android - itself is just meh, but the environment sucks and the Google Play programs are just as bad as the programs in these advertisement leaflets which you get for sending a premium SMS
 
@Prismatic raises hand
 
@BartekBanachewicz fuck unknown companies
 
Ell
@bartek ah good :) congrats btw
 
8:41 PM
he's actually putting ideas from Haskell into our production code
 
That being said, of Android and iOS, I can't really tell which of the two is the biggest pain to develop for.
 
this is p great
 
@EtiennedeMartel Both of them? :D
 
Android is probably shittier, but at least I don't have to use Xcode.
 
fuck homo sapienses
 
8:41 PM
fuck everything
 
@unordered_meow Android apps are, on average, like the sort of shit you expect from to get from those crappy adverts where people can't hold shit
 
ffs
too late, was going to post this
 
That's my life's theme. I imagine Cat's, as well.
 
anyway, for the nice, optimistic read
 
Ell
8:42 PM
I always wonder how to pronounce his name
 
Ell
Inb4 "Jon"
 
State of the Haskell ecosystem: Bored Lounge.
 
I guess it's like you would pronounce Jon Skeet's first name
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz The main disappointing thing about that list is "debugging". Lazy evaluation makes it much harder esp for things like stack overflow.
 
8:44 PM
also fuck web browsers
 
Or Jon Kalb's.
 
Why haven't we fucked Linux yet?
 
@Lalaland There's a type error posted by rightfold somewhere in the transcript.
 
Ell
Bcos linux is great
 
So much worse than the worst template error I've ever seen.
 
Ell
8:45 PM
also bcos its a kernel and its p good
 
@Griwes except you never get a single template error
 
also your messages are funny to me
since "bcos" is an IRC nick of someone who is developing his own kernel
 
user406009
I find that haskells type errors are quite readable.
 
@Lalaland beh, with pretty much everything having strict variants, it's not that hard
 
user406009
I find that haskells type errors are quite readable.
 
8:46 PM
and shares my view that everything is borken (although his solutions are drastically different)
 
Ell
@griwes lol, what a hilarious coincidence
 
I find that Haskell is a toy. <runs away>
 
Ell
I don't know that everything is broken, but I dislike the "everything is a file" concept
 
@ElimGarak that's what people said about first computers as well
 
@Lalaland I won't find the error rightfold posted right now; not searchable enough - but it was a monster.
 
8:47 PM
@ElimGarak You're a toy
 
Ell
/proc is a terrible idea in my eyes
 
@Ell I like "everything is an object" - but in the "actor" sense.
 
@набиячлевэлиь I'm a fictional character.
 
/proc is because they wanted to use that with read and write.
That in itself is not a terrible idea - but I don't think that the execution makes sense.
I.e. I mostly dislike the fact it tries to pretend it's a directory of files.
 
Ell
they wanted to use it with read and write? Can you elaborate? :)
 
8:48 PM
dev://cpu/info for /proc/cpuinfo would make perfect sense, for example.
@Ell To use file I/O functions instead of weird special APIs for that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's half (Best in class & Mature) vs half (Immature & bad), with a slight advantage of the first group. Nice.
 
Ell
I dislike that it pretends to be files too
 
Which, again, makes sense - but make it a resource at an URI, not a thing that pretends to be a file.
That's also far more flexible.
 
I sometimes pretend to be a file.
4
 
Ell
I mean it does work, it just seems odd. I guess I need better reasoning :p
 
8:49 PM
At that point you can do dev://cpu/info/3 which works. /proc/cpuinfo/3 doesn't.
 
Ell
doing touch /proc/helloworld.txt won't create a process
 
Just have a proper virtual file system. Or, URI manager or something.
 
Ell
It's fitting something which isn't a file system into the filesystem concept. It's like vector<bool>
 
@unordered_meow It's p important to realize what needs to be fixed
 
Admit these are not files, but resources, and it stops being confusing, you stop needing magic directories in the filesystem, and it even gets far, far more flexible than actual files.
 
8:51 PM
as in, Haskell people do realize that we need better IDEs and the like
 
@Ell Ooooh. That's a pretty good analogy.
 
Must purchase some domains. Please don't steal them from me while I browse.
 
Though it probably won't make Unix vigilantes understand it - remember, true Unix is C!
 
but I guess improving the language core first make for a better product overall
 
Haskell is a product? What for? Shits and giggles?
 
8:52 PM
if Haskell went down the "commercialize at all cost" path, it would end up like other languages
 
You guys are overly enthusiastic.
 
@ElimGarak For actual applications.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Used?
 
Seen this? It got kinda known recently. Guess what it's written in.
 
@Puppy <3
 
8:53 PM
@Puppy it's not only about "being used a lot"
 
@Puppy Forced to accept broken features "because the public demands them".
 
Ell
Ha yes true Unix is C. So true Unix is shit :P
 
Haskell ideas are used.
 
Tip: the public is morons.
 
8:55 PM
@Ell error: 'true' undeclared
 
user406009
Some of Haskell's ideas are good. Laziness is the main bad one as far as I am concerned.
 
If Haskell ever becomes something more than a wet dream, I'll run naked with a Haskell cape through a city of your choosing. Let the transcript record this for posterity because it's going to be a while.
 
@melak47 s/true/_True/
 
@Griwes Well, the important thing is that you found a way to feel superior to everyone.
 
@ElimGarak what's your definition of "more than a wet dream" then?
 
8:56 PM
@ElimGarak Do it now
 
"used in an arbitrary number of irrelevant products"?
 
@EtiennedeMartel But most people are stupid.
 
@Griwes You don't have to justify yourself, I'm sure your ivory tower is a great place to live in.
 
I love Etienne. He's such a communist. <3
 

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