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user1804599
8:00 AM
Which is also needlessly restricted to value types.
 
@ElimGarak Okay. There's a bug in Gnome3 that occasionally looses gconf/dbus or something and then it flips the order of the monitors. That used to happen a lot. Now rarely.
 
All aboard the dbus!
 
@elyse Define "needlessly". It's a matter of choice. I find it elegant that it is both restricted to valuetypes and is, itself, a valuetype (IIRC)
 
Ah, good. OS X loses its shit often when booting so I have to insist on manually targeting an output and then subsequently adding additional displays at runtime.
 
user1804599
@sehe Because it would be very useful for reference types.
 
8:01 AM
Doesn't putting dbus into the kernel just slow the kernel down?
 
@MaiLongdong The D-Bus ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 
@Mikhail We're not discussing that. The rhetorical is ill-posed
 
user1804599
And you could have a single generic solution which works well for both.
 
@Mr.kbok Yes that is right you got the joke!
 
Geebus
 
user1804599
8:02 AM
You could implement it in a few minutes sans LINQ extension methods.
 
Why does kdbus depend on Qt?
 
@elyse And you'd lose all the JIT optimization potential (guessing here).
It's not "rubbish" for the sake of being "rubbish". In fact it's not rubbish. Merely limited and I bet that didn't happen by accident.
 
user1804599
I would favour optimisations over explicit maintainable code every time.
 
Alrighty, time to connect a third disk and install Ubuntu 15.04. Any bad surprises with 15.04?
 
@ElimGarak Kubuntu is pretty well. The KDE settings thing has nice support for that is pretty good.
 
8:04 AM
@Mikhail It doesn't ~~just slow kernel down~~, it speeds up system bus which these days is p much required
 
(Just saying for the sake of completeness. :D)
 
@MaiLongdong oh, it wasn't obvious you made it
 
Let me try again
All aboard the D-bus (gedit? 8====D-Bus) (It's a bus full of Ds)
 
what are you hinting at
 
user1804599
 
8:06 AM
@Mr.kbok Gosh. It was obvious. He made it.
 
user1804599
Allows nice abstractions to be written around it.
 
user1804599
And works with all types.
 
@elyse are you gonna jam
 
user1804599
Maybe.
 
@elyse yes. And it's not optimal for value types. Precisely what nullable would be useful for in the first place.
 
user1804599
8:09 AM
I don't know.
 
user1804599
@sehe Define "optimal".
 
@elyse I like the source file name. Highly creative
 
@elyse How can I convince you?
 
user1804599
It's optimal if you want usability and a lack of special cases.
 
@elyse Precisely as you'd read it. Now the T value will be a gcref
 
user1804599
8:10 AM
Don't use if it your particular use case has more optimal alternatives.
 
user1804599
@Mr.kbok Uh, I don't know?
 
user1804599
@sehe Not if T is a value type.
 
@elyse okay :(
 
user1804599
The CLR specialises applied type constructors.
 
user1804599
It's not like Java where it boxes everything.
 
8:12 AM
guys
how would you implement try_lexical_cast?
A bit at a loss here
 
user1804599
template<typename A, B>
optional<A> try_lexical_cast(B const& x) {
    try {
        return optional<A>(lexical_cast<A>(x));
    } catch (bad_lexical_cast const&) {
        return none;
    }
}
 
lol
 
user1804599
What's lol about it?
 
how do you think lexical_cast is implemented?
 
user1804599
Specialised for lots of types, string stream for anything else.
 
8:14 AM
template <typename Target, typename Source>
inline Target lexical_cast(const Source &arg)
{
    Target result;

    if (!try_lexical_cast(arg, result))
        throw bad_lexical_cast();

    return result;
}
 
user1804599
Oh.
 
:)
 
user1804599
Well, then chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/25431006#25431006 applies to try_lexical_cast.
 
The real name is try_lexical_convert actually
 
@Mr.kbok Use it as it exists in boost (1.58+?)
 
8:16 AM
I find it too vague to bother with.
 
I have 1.49 atm
 
@elyse I'd want to see that happen. Type constraints happen for a reason
 
user1804599
1.49 automated telling machine
 
@elyse You missed a glaring problem with that code
 
@elyse No, he's scuba diving right now.
 
8:16 AM
I just want a stupid string to bool/int try conversion
 
@Mr.kbok you suck are unlucky
 
hm
 
user1804599
> Generic method specialization is always done for primitives and valuetypes, including enums.
 
user1804599
Not sure actually about fields, but I would be highly surprised.
 
@Mr.kbok well. So. option<int> try_convert(std::string const&)
 
8:17 AM
If I use stringstreams, how can I check if operator>> succeded?
 
if(foo >> bar)
 
The same as with any other stream ops
 
really?
 
o.O
ITT kbok is new to C++
 
8:18 AM
Uh, what else?
 
yes, I'm new to iostreams
 
That's horribund
 
idgi, it doesn't make any sense
 
What doesn't
 
failing to convert the string contents into a given type results of a bad bit set into the stringstream?
 
8:19 AM
It's the same as foo >> bar; if (foo)
 
@Mr.kbok Yes? As with all the other streams
 
Interestingly, streams were among bjarne stroustrup research targets for C++, and they turned out the worst.
 
@Mr.kbok Technically, the fail bit, but yes.
 
You can enable exceptions
 
that's horrible
 
8:20 AM
Streams are a bunch of not so trivial state
 
haha
 
@Mr.kbok Does it need to.
Evolution often doesn't make sense either
 
@sehe Well, to be fair there was a higher power at work there.
 
@Mikhail unsurprisingly, as this is always what happens when trying out newly designed tech
 
only batshit insane
I only ever use streams to read char buffers
 
8:22 AM
That's... very very atypical. As the name suggests, use a streambuf
 
Not sure what'd you expect with this interface
>> returns the stream
And it predates good design or something
 
It was cleverness, of the questionable variety
 
So exceptions are disabled by default
 
I just think iostreams are useless
 
So what. Do you still want to use them?
 
8:23 AM
yeah you’ll find no fan of streams here
 
what about a stream of fans?
 
Things that iostreams do are useful on their own, but iostreams is bad
 
@sehe Herb Sutter proposed last November to make all C++ expressions evaluate left-to-right, with the main motivation being just such cleverness.
 
Boost.IOStreams is slightly better
 
I have grown to like them be less weary of them as I understand them better.
But that took entirely too much effort
@Potatoswatter :sadface:
 
8:25 AM
@sehe At Microsoft, old cleverness never gets old.
 
@Potatoswatter BUT THAT WOULD TAKE AWAY OPTIMISATION OPPORTUNITIES
I CANT HAVE DEFINED EVALUATION ORDER
 
@Mr.kbok Streams shine when you want to use the same code for writing text to the screen and writing text to files.
 
When do you ever want to do that?!?
 
@Mikhail That's just a matter of interface
 
` virtual void verifySettings(std::ostream& input = std::cout) = 0;//Null input
`
 
8:26 AM
Any common interface
 
@CatPlusPlus The truth is, you can't have it one way or another. C++ is complicated enough that things will still happen in a surprising order, e.g. conversions that happen inside a call wrapper.
 
@Mikhail That's terrible on multiple levels
 
I see at least 4 levels of terrible
Well I see 4.
 
@CatPlusPlus Welp I'm busy fixing it..
 
@Mr.kbok Log routing
But that's too advanced for C++
:v
 
8:27 AM
@CatPlusPlus You're using a logging library anyway
 
Or not
 
If you're logging with iostreams then you suck big time
 
@Mr.kbok hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha‌​hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah‌​ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
remind me to never work at your company
 
@Mr.kbok As good as any
There are no good logging libraries for C++
Also syslog and stdout are only valid log destinations
I wish people stopped logging to files by default
 
We use spdlog but it's still not perfect
 
8:29 AM
@MaiLongdong @sehe I think you need to add this to your list of things to remind people of :P
 
I have to modify it to do the string formatting on the I/O thread to gain ~precious microseconds~
 
@MaiLongdong wtf
 
@Mr.kbok Also that's "if you log unstructured data" :v
 
I could upgrade boost if I wanted to just CBA for a single function
 
user1804599
Speaking of reified generics, I guess I'm gonna implement them in my VM this weekend.
 
8:30 AM
@Mr.kbok How is marital sta- ok, over played joke.
 
you suck
 
@Mr.kbok You know they also make bugfixes and things
 
@CatPlusPlus How do you log structured data?
 
@Mr.kbok better than your gf fo sure
 
8:30 AM
@CatPlusPlus nah, still cba
 
user1804599
@Mr.kbok protobuf :>
 
are you trying to get me to kill myself
 
By logging structured data, not a freeform line of text
@Mr.kbok You're doing it to yourself
 
@CatPlusPlus hahahaha good luck convincing the older guys of that
 
I'm not doing protobufs
 
8:32 AM
"why are you logging binary are you insane"
 
Morning
 
cereal is much better because its header only
 
The name is too hipster
 
god I wrangled with log processing pipeline for several days and it's still half-done
 
@MaiLongdong You can log a structured text format
 
8:32 AM
I barely managed to get most of things to log into syslog
 
But of course some things just fucking don't
No matter what
Plus I still have to parse the fucking logs
And get them to a searchable state
 
Like Nevada
 
If you can only log to file, fuck you
 
@CatPlusPlus Honestly curious how structured logging works out in practice. How do you check the logs? With a tool? Do you still output to stdout for eg jenkins?
 
8:34 AM
Even just logging to stderr is better
 
@CatPlusPlus I've been trying to tell people that for ages
 
@Mr.kbok Collect logs, parse logs with LogStash, put logs into ElasticSearch/put events through Riemann for alerts/metrics, visualise with Kibana or something
Unstructured logs means you have to spend more time on the parsing stage
And deal with crappy brittle adhoc formats
 
user1804599
argumentum ad hoc
 
hmm... operator precedence stops you being able to do something like *iterator++ to 'get dereferenced value and then advance iterator`
 
I have like 20 servers each running some shit that needs to log
 
user1804599
8:36 AM
No, it doesn't.
 
user1804599
++ has higher precedence than *.
 
@thecoshman It works the same as with pointers
 
exactly, it'll advance the iterator, then deference it
 
@thecoshman It’s not precedence. Even if you add parens you won’t be able to achieve what you want.
 
Also don't do that, it's shitty code
 
8:37 AM
@CatPlusPlus yeah that too :P
 
@CatPlusPlus that's extremely specific
 
So what's the ideal log sink for you @Cat
 
@MaiLongdong quick reminder
 
@sehe Thanks! Sadly I still use them as my bank
good to know that boost 1.49 processes all my transactions
 
@Mr.kbok That's a typical pipeline
 
8:39 AM
@MaiLongdong spoiler alert fortran does
 
@Mr.kbok she's laughing at with you
 
how to humour a book by kbok
 
You can use something other than ELK but the principle is the same anyway
 
@CatPlusPlus for specific logs. what do you do with build logs? access logs? specific cron tasks logs?
 
one doesn't simply humour a kbook
 
8:39 AM
@Mr.kbok Impressive
 
@Mr.kbok All logs
Even catch-all buffers can be parsed as 'date', 'process', 'message'
 
you put build logs into elasticsearch?
 
But it's rubby what if I log like tens of thousands of lines per second
Will it cope
 
@elyse us pocus
 
I don't keep build logs, but if it's important enough to persist then yes, it goes into ES
 
8:41 AM
It's not important enough to keep as long as it succeeds. What do you do with them?
 
CI logs are not very relevant anywhere outside of CI so I wouldn't bother rerouting them to any central storage
This project doesn't have CI because it's kinda pointless at the moment
And deploy logs are available on the spot
It might be worth it to put CI logs through the pipeline if you need alerting
It's all very boring stuff
Also fucking journald is annoying
 
hm
not sure if that would actually help us get shit done
 
using iostreams is a sure path to getting shit done most often
 
Meh, Ubuntu gets confused with 3 displays, recognizes 2.
 
uhoh. 2 GPUs?
 
8:52 AM
@ElimGarak I blame your graphics card(s) :P
 
I tried with the GTX 980 machine, a single GPU.
 
@ElimGarak did you already "detect" using the "displays" cp app?
@ElimGarak wow. 3 mons on a single GPU. I didn't even
 
Yup, but it just borks the third display.
 
@ElimGarak Maybe he's not yet in age of getting marr- oh.
 
3 displays on one GPU is not very unusual
 
8:54 AM
@sehe On Windows, I drive 4 of them on the GTX 980. :P
 
@MaiLongdong Did you ate a clown for breakfast
 
@sehe what's so hard to understand?
 
It probably has like 4 or 5 ports total
 
@CatPlusPlus it is where I live :)
 
@sehe your house sucks though :P
 
8:55 AM
@CatPlusPlus 4 display ports and one DVI-d
 
@Mr.kbok I wish
 
@thecoshman you're jealous
fail :)
 
sehe lives in 1displaypergpu-land
 
nope. 2 actually. On both
(but I only use 1 GPU at a time, because 2 mons)
 
@ElimGarak Tried to force it via xrandr?
Also with my current 3 display setup (though again, on KDE) it first got confused, but then the settings thing managed to understand what's going on.
 
8:57 AM
Everything, at a time it generated the usual borked pixels pattern on the third one.
 
@sehe What if you poke them? I mean what if you poke mons?
crowd cheering
 
@ElimGarak Did you try turning it on and off? hides
 
@ElimGarak I had no real problems with using laptops display and two externals. It messed up ordering every time I docked laptop, but then I get same problems with Windows most of the time
 
@MaiLongdong ba dum tss
 
@ElimGarak Also are you sure you are driving the displays with GTX, not with your (presumed) integrated Intel one? :P
 
8:58 AM
@Griwes Definitely, proprietary Nvidia drivers. 349.56
 
@MaiLongdong mons pubis
 
@ElimGarak That... can sometimes not work.
 
ha ha nvidia drivers and linuc
 
That particular version borked my system some time ago. :D
 
@Griwes Yes, I suspected as much the first time it borked the installation.
But even on the alternatives it blew up in my face.
 
8:59 AM
never had much trouble nvidia-ing. DKMS is pretty decent
 
@ElimGarak Install prime-indicator or whatever is the name of the package and see if you are actually running that.
 
// include boost after STLport!!!!
// never after....
 
Just because you have it installed doesn't mean it's on.
 
after, not after
 
8:59 AM
 
(Oh, I've got indicators when the GPU is in use.)
 

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