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12:00 PM
@ElimGarak there you go
 
what's that?
 
GTA always looks so wonderful from a distance.
 
the wind is going in random directions
and plane too dark ... it's weird
 
whoa
ITT telkitty "GTA graphics are mediocre"
the trees are a photography right?
 
Tree branches are often directional two-sided planes, a lot of them to create the illusion. The trunk has volume, though. Everything else, recursively to the last leaf is an oriented two-sided planes. Looks good if you don't focus on anything too much.
 
12:06 PM
@ElimGarak lol, I was talking about telkitty's :)
 
I plonked her. :(
 
lol, I am not a professional game maker or a graphic designer
 
So. Much. Work.
What you guys up to lately?
 
Who are you btw
 
I'm supposed to be a programmer but I find myself attending meetings, deciding architecture and managing bozos
 
12:13 PM
I leave for a few days and then I see you
 
@Rapptz Django
 
@Rapptz Unchained
 
Or whatever was his name
 
django m8?
 
Domanji?
 
12:13 PM
really?
 
It's less work and it's less tiring but it gets a lot more on my nerves.
 
I got it
 
Jumanji?
 
I just
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Jumanji!
 
12:13 PM
Who knew people could get more frustrating than C++
 
lmao
domagoj
 
Plain, simple Garak. Of the Obsidian Order.
 
Yeah, that
 
@Mr.kbok Everyone? :D
 
It's been eights weeks we have a meeting every week and they ask the SAME FUCKING QUESTIONS every week
NO WE CAN'T USE MONGODB FUCK OFF
 
12:15 PM
People never listen, until it impacts them personally, then they start obnoxiously and frequently asking.
@Mr.kbok Good. That thing is shit.
 
When I ordered the kitchen, I was told it would be ready in 3-4 weeks time. Turns out, I received a call today & the kitchen is ready for delivery & it has not even been a week
 
rip time for work
 
@Rapptz Have fun!
 
But the house is not ready for the kitchen yet
 
How is it possible that the more code I write, there is more left of it to write?
 
12:19 PM
You are writing garbage
It's Cat's law
 
Cat's law is this: everything is terrible.
 
We can only strive to be less terrible! Yet terrible.
 
I thought it was amended with s/terrible/garbage/
 
@chmod711telkitty What do you mean it's not ready? You didn't build the kitchen yet?
 
@ElimGarak write less code
 
12:21 PM
"Terrible" is not in vogue anymore
 
@thecoshman I'd love to, but then it won't do anything. :Đ
I should've been a prostitute.
 
@ElimGarak You know how the more you eat, the bigger you get, the more you can eat?
 
Oh, I know that too well. Hope I never know it again, though. #fatnesssadness #neverforget
 
> a compact operator is a linear operator L from a Banach space X to another Banach space Y, such that the image under L of any bounded subset of X is a relatively compact subset of Y.
wtf does that even mean?
 
@Mr.kbok I need to finish the tiling before the kitchen can be put in
but sadly, not only the tiling, the gyprocking is still going
although, mostly done now
 
12:29 PM
Actually, a relatively compact subset is not a colloquialism.
In mathematics, a relatively compact subspace (or relatively compact subset, or precompact) Y of a topological space X is a subset whose closure is compact. Since closed subsets of a compact space are compact, every subset of a compact space is relatively compact. In the case of a metric topology, or more generally when sequences may be used to test for compactness, the criterion for relative compactness becomes that any sequence in Y has a subsequence convergent in X. Some major theorems characterise relatively compact subsets, in particular in function spaces. An example is the Arzelà–Ascoli...
But to the point, mathematicians like to be prickish and pretentious once they grasp many of the concepts displayed when addressing those who don't, easily forgetting they were once in their place. Also, Wikipedia math has low educational value. Just like scientific papers are not aimed to be digested by newcomers. Too much expected lingo and pre-requisite knowledge.
 
> Wikipedia math has low educational value.
yes this
they make it so difficult to understand, its almost not worth reading
 
They basically copy books into them, slices of them. And one that doesn't understand, cannot make sense of it, even to begin.
 
It's for the people who already know but want specific details, like reading the standard
 
Yes.
 
so basically if you want to understand things like this you need to get a proper book on the subject
 
12:33 PM
I was thinking about starting a math & physics knowledge base a few years ago, which is aimed to help people understand difficult concepts. But couldn't gauge people's interest and life is short.
 
It would help people like me (who aren't PhD's in math) a lot if there was simpler definitions for math terms
 
@TonyTheLion Yup. Or find someone who can devote a large portion of his time "translating" that into English, I do that when the concept can be explained in two paragraphs or less.
 
but if you get into advanced things, you cannot get a definition without having 5 words in that definition also be some technical term you've never ever heard of
Same applies for a lot of technical subjects
 
But that particular sentence is powerful because it already expects knowledge of linear operators, Banach spaces (topological spaces in general), the notion of an image, the bounded and relatively compact subspaces, compact closures and so forth.
 
exactly
 
12:36 PM
The biggest issue online is the "market share" of actually learnable crap. Every website that exists will give you that condensed shit. For learning, that statement is absolute shit.
 
@Mr.kbok That's what an encyclopedia is meant to be.
It's not meant to be didactic material.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes True, but its useless for most people non-expert in a subject trying to understand something in it
ITT wikipedia is absolutely useless :P
 
I think that Wikipedia sells itself as a place to learn. And doesn't deliver.
 
@TonyTheLion Just like a pencil is useless for people wanting to boil water.
 
@ElimGarak yes
 
12:38 PM
> Welcome to Wikipedia,
the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit.
 
I'd expect a true encyclopedia to have deep info about a topic.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Informally, when they beg for money.
 
@ElimGarak And that's nothing to do with with being didactic.
 
They beg for money often.
 
@ElimGarak Encyclopedias are learning aids, yes.
 
@ElimGarak tbh wikipedia is expensive to mantain
 
12:39 PM
They're not meant to teach, though.
 
but you can learn from it
 
Wikipedia is inconsistent, it has many articles that could be classified as didactic (even entire sections of an article dedicated to precisely that).
 
@ElimGarak And no, that's not how encyclopedias work.
> Welcome to Wikipedia,
the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes "I'd expect" being key :P
 
user1804599
arrrrrrrrrrr
 
12:41 PM
"Totally not a wikipedia" is what most people who end up on Wikipedia need.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I agree.
 
I've stopped reading the Wikipedia a long time ago. Domain-specific books almost always are preferable. And with sensitive, easily misunderstood topics like complicated mathematics, those are best learned from good authors. From start to finish, not just extracting points of interest.
 
A Banach space is a vector space with some nice properties: it is has a norm (linear operator to reals that behaves "length-like" in a few ways) and complete (cauchy sequences converge).
A linear operator is a linear function -- a function F such that for scalars a and vectors x y, aFx + Fy = F(ax+y). The image under a function F of a set S is the set {F(s) such that s is from S}.
A bounded set in a normed space is a set such that the image under the norm is a subset of some interval [-M, M] of the real line. A relatively compact subset is a subset whose closure (union with all of its lim
Bah, cannot manage to get it to quote the original properly.
 
Besides, that's pretty useless. Tony needs something with a human touch. Lots of human. Usually I find that such stuff only helps scare people away.
 
I'm not sure how you can unpack "compact operator" without just exploding the definitions, which makes the sentence larger than you can easily understand. It has a bunch of layers of abstraction, each of which wraps another layer. Until you understand the previous layer, even talking about things in the next layer requires so much unpacking it is almost impossible to understand.
 
12:47 PM
Tony needs to learn from the ground up, slowly. Probably tried to open the Pandora's box and didn't like what he saw. :D If you cannot describe it in two paragraphs, probably won't be helpful in a chat. :D
 
I find wikipedia useful as a reference. I mean, I remembered "Banach space is a nice vector space" (and by nice, I mean "has properties that make it easy to prove things in it"), but it had been so long I forgot what about it was nice.
 
Finally, C++ completion is alright. Again thanks @sehe and @LucDanton :)
 
A quick hit told me it was a complete normed vector space. I remember what complete was (the Reals are the completion of the Rationals). I forgot if normed implied an inner product or not (it does not).
But I'm someone with some background that is very, very rusty. And when I wander into stuff I didn't learn long ago, it takes a lot of work to unpack it.
 
Yes, it's very good as a reference. Although, people with a background usually have a stash of books and/or ebooks, which are usually better refs. :D
 
I've got books (despite attempts of spouse to throw them out), but they aren't indexed by google.
 
12:52 PM
Indeed, however, Wikipedia also has an issue with quality, especially on obscure fields of mathematics. I often run into stupid mistakes and am reluctant to place any faith in articles I am not well versed in, to get an idea of them.
 
Meh. No mechanic would object to "The clutch is a mechanism used to temporarily disengage the transmission, so that gears can be changed without stopping the engine" as the answer to "what's a clutch?". And yet it suffers from the same things you complain about "a compact operator is a linear operator L from a Banach space X to another Banach space Y, such that the image under L of any bounded subset of X is a relatively compact subset of Y."
 
That statement is fine. But it doesn't help Tony one bit.
 
Apparently it is prickish and pretentious.
 
For people who are new to the subject.
Even on learning sites, people like to throw that around.
Not exclusively Wikipedia.
 
I'm puzzled why you'd need to know what a compact operator is if you don't already know what a linear operator, image, bounded subset, and be able to unpack Banach space quickly. Maybe some paper mentioned "compact operator", and it had applications Tony wanted to use? I could translate it to "sufficiently nice function".
 
12:55 PM
Exactly.
 
hello guys, can you recommend a good updated C++ books for me? thanks
 
When two professionals are discussing something, being short and concise and yet easily understood, perfect. Such are scientific papers. But for new folks, that lingo is destructive. And when one is trying to teach and uses that intentionally only to throw his weight around.
 
@ElimGarak What Yakk said.
 
Yes.
 
12:57 PM
This "new folks" talk is bollocks.
 
Well, isn't Tony new to the subject? Or am I missing a crucial bit?
 
@ElimGarak Yes, you seem to have some kind of bias against formalisms.
2 mins ago, by Yakk
I'm puzzled why you'd need to know what a compact operator is if you don't already know what a linear operator, image, bounded subset, and be able to unpack Banach space quickly. Maybe some paper mentioned "compact operator", and it had applications Tony wanted to use? I could translate it to "sufficiently nice function".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Aaah, not at all. But using formalisms to explain something to a beginner or someone who is confused with a concept does not help.
 
Because your objections are all about "pretentiousness" and "throwing weight around".
 
Formalisms work. Between two people who are well versed. But if you get a basic question, and respond with formalism... Yes, I totally stand behind that.
 
12:58 PM
Show us in this definition where the bad people touched you.
7
@ElimGarak "What is a Banach space?" is a basic question?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Robot. In general. In general.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
 
GOOD MORNING
yesterday, by Nooble
@MarcoA. HOW TO SUCK COCK
 
What is SFINAE? Please answer in a way that someone who has never programmed can understand it and use it to solve a problem.
 
user406009
@Mr.kbok Wait, why would someone willing want to use MongoDB?
 
1:01 PM
@ElimGarak Yeah, I don't get it. Wouldn't a basic question by definition almost necessarily mean that the answer is also simple to understand? In general :P
 
@Yakk it is like this: you try, it doesn't work.. you get mad.. you retry.. it doesn't work.. damnit!!
 
@Lalaland uni?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ thank you for the book recommendations!
 
user406009
@Yakk Normally you write some code.
`class foo {};`. Then in another function `foo::darn a_bad_function() { ... }`. You would normally get an error due to darn not existing.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes An entry level question in a particular topic, which you can respond to using formalism of standard prerequisites, but also add a human touch of possible intuition. And there is always a place for that.
I agree with you both, but... A soft touch also. If someone is confused.
 
1:02 PM
@anagnam np :)
 
@Lalaland cluelessness
 
Formalism alone is going to just scare someone away.
 
Give me an example.
 
and anyway the hardest C++ unresolved questions are this and this
 
user406009
1:03 PM
@Yakk SFINAE refers to the fact that you don't get such an error with templates. Instead the compiler simply pretentends that a_bad_function was never declared.
 
user406009
template <typename T>
typename T::darn a_bad_function() {}
 
And indeed, yes, there was a time when the bad people touched me with nasty definitions. 6-7 years ago, on a daily basis.
 
@Lalaland I have no idea what a template is.
 
@Yakk It's a way of turning hard errors into soft errors.
 
Do you mean hard errors into easy errors?
 
Xeo
1:05 PM
@Yakk If you never programmed, you don't need SFINAE to solve a problem.
 
SFINAE is a tool in the programming language C++ which permits to select particular chunks of code for execution of the program depending on informations known before the program is run.
 
Xeo
:P
 
So instead of just bailing out and saying "you've done fucked up", it says "alright, this doesn't make sense in this context, so I'll ignore it".
@R.MartinhoFernandes ಠ_ಠ
 
@Griwes A muggle has no idea what "soft error" could possibly mean.
 
user406009
@Yakk One special point: This only occurs in function signatures.
 
1:05 PM
I don't know how one that knows nothing about programming would solve a programming problem though.
 
The thing with SFINAE, by the time someone runs into it, already has some decent prerequisite knowledge which you can use to softly build his understanding. If someone has no fucking idea what a template is, your response needs to be null or "You're not ready yet."
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes OTOH a muggle would never want to know what something that's called "SFINAE" means.
 
A formal answer will just knock him out of his orbit. Discourage at the very least.
 
At least silence and "You're not ready yet" are very motivating.
 
Maybe one should read about C before learning C++ (?) — Supersharp Aug 17 at 21:30
 
1:07 PM
Does less damage :P
 
It's the learning curve that is intimidating.
 
@ElimGarak What about a less formal definition?
 
You can't change that by withholding information.
 
There is always a great way to explain something. Just a matter of effort to find it. And also the learner not to be a lazy shit.
 
Yes, sometimes that effort involves explaining a ton of other things first.
 
1:09 PM
Some things were hell for me, years back... Figuring out how to simplify the Laplace's equation once transformed to spherical coordinates. Most would just copy the wikipedia final closed form equation. That was not an answer. That was shit. (basis of spherical harmonics)
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ top kek
 
Basically, it was an A4 size piece of paper consisting of a single equation, with many terms getting lost... But a few of them sticking around.
 
lmao I'm on a call with someone who sounds like a James Bond villain
 
Which one?
@ElimGarak Just follow the white rabbit blue text.
 
The bald one with Cat Plus Plus. Wait, that's Powers.
 
1:11 PM
@ElimGarak I haven't been using it since electromagnetism course
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Dominic Greene French accent obvisouly
 
good day guys. Do anyone of you knows how to center label in data flow if it is angular in MS VISIO?
 
OH FFS QoS
 
@user3783598 JS?
 
@Mr.kbok ask them how the hollowed out volcano is doing
 
1:13 PM
@user3783598 This lounge template has been instantiated for C++, good sir.
 
@Mgetz They're doing it in mongodb so I guess pretty bad
 
thou shalt not instantiate
 
We also do palm reading.
 
@Mr.kbok could be a highly scalable hollowed out volcano if they know what they are doing
 
1:13 PM

JavaScript

Topic: Anything JavaScript, ECMAScript including Node, React, ...
 
Seriously, gaining control of the supply of water in Bolivia is one of the stupidest world domination plots ever.
 
bye
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes aye, but not panama or nicaragua
 
@user3783598 o/
 
@user3783598 <3 Come again soon!
 
1:15 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think in the story it's just one of the many money bets
 
Casino Royale was fun.
And a good theme, for once. I don't know which drugs they took on QoS.
 
user406009
The problem with MongoDB is that most data is relational.
 
@Mr.kbok All of which involve gaining control of something in Bolivia.
 
user406009
For instance, most software has the concept of users.
 
user406009
With have relations to certain data (admins, owners, etc)
 
1:19 PM
@MarcoA. Yeah, it is quite useful in spherical coordinates, as spherical harmonics, a set of basis functions useful for band-limited reconstruction of a multidimensional signal (such as lighting). Also, used for quantifying gravitational potentials, resolves nasty integrals easily.
 
user406009
And MongoDB's "lack of schema" doesn't help.
 
user406009
There is always a schema.
 
user406009
If it's not stored in the DB, then it's stored inside people's heads.
 
user406009
And I trust the DB much more than my memory for storing useful things like that.
 
I wish I could do serious math again. It was fun
 
1:21 PM
lol funniest meeting ever
"you can do all the computations in the grid!" "have you tested it?" "no but I've read lots of blog articles on grid computing"
 
And calling lighting a multidimensional signal because it has the aspect of spatial frequency to it and thus can be quantified from the perspective of signal processing is exactly why it is easy to sound pretentious and prickish to someone who has an idea of lighting and dreams of doing global illumination.
Has the relative prerequisite knowledge, but that is completely nonsensical to an entry level graphics programmer.
But it sure does shorten an exchange between two professionals.
@MarcoA. Why don't you do it for fun? :D
 
@ElimGarak I sometimes do, but I'd need to re-study everything again
at least some calculus concepts
plus calculus III was shit in my university
 
user406009
@MarcoA. Start with geometry.
 
user406009
Prove the dot product.
 
user406009
Prove cos, sin identities.
 
1:29 PM
And the cross product. :Đ
 
a guy who went to pass calculus II got out of the professor's room and said "I passed calculus II and III"
 
The fundamental theorem of calculus etc.
 
"how could you pass calculus III if we haven't attended the course yet?"
 
user406009
Almost no prerequisites for those proofs.
 
"Professor thought I'm a nice guy"
...
 
1:29 PM
@MarcoA. Ahahah
 
so I don't consider the quality of that course very high..
 
You can also derive methods of matrix inversion for your personal pleasure, on your own, naturally.
Many concepts from linear algebra are fun to reinvent
 
@MarcoA. lolwut
 
Classical electrodynamics as well, many people just learn the differential form by heart and don't really get where that shit is coming from. Maxwell figured out a great many things, even stepped on something that could've made him "the Einstein", but he missed it. Not the first to do it, too... Lorentz missed it, too.
Lorentz also started the quantum mechanics revolution and brooded because he wasn't satisfied with the solution, died thinking he was wrong.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I disagree. I cancelled out your downvote to put the score back to zero. — Mr. kbok 10 secs ago
Are you proud of me cc @MaiLongdong
 
1:42 PM
Where is LRiO here? Did you guys make him mad?
 
Details. Juicy details.
 
You are talking to the guy that pushed him over the edge by flagging one of his messages
 
Ahahah, he always did have a short fuse.
 
He just went nuts and now he has a chatroom all by himself where he talks mostly to himself all day
It's called Bar<C++> or something
in Bar<C++>, Aug 16 at 0:04, by Lightness Races in Orbit
then again you are the bootlegged Jofffrey
lol
 
1:46 PM
in Bar<C++>, May 22 at 10:55, by Lightness Races in Orbit
Chat without the trolls :)
Hahah.
 
There would be only messages by Mgetz in there if it was truly a chat without trolls
 
He just posted, a few seconds ago. Seems like he's truly talking to 'imself.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ to be fair, he'd had EVERYTHING he'd posted in the last hour flagged
regardless of whether or not it should have been
 
I flagged only 1 message
 
Damn, Jeffrey hurt his feelings.
 
1:51 PM
And there are flag wars in here every month, so he can stop being a bitch about it
 
Or he's seriously not taking it well.
 
And yes, I'm concerned with his health too
 
If I knew PHP more I might understand where you're coming from better, but in C++ classes basically don't exist anymore once compiled, only functions. — GuyGreer 1 min ago
Really? o.o
 
Even if it's true, it's irrelevant to the question
 
Once compiled, only what the ISA intrinsically supports "remains". But that's irrelevant and beside the point, as Jeffrey mentions.
 
1:57 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ but we don't go flagging each other... do we?
 
@thecoshman Sometimes we do
 
Also, if there is flagging here all the time, how was LRiO's flag significant? Beyond him being a wuss.
 
He used to flag a lot here, I believe.
Remember when he was so pissed about us not conforming to SE rules and whatnot
I might be mistaken though. Flags are anonymous after all.
 
Yeah, I really wanted to like him because he likes Star Trek. But he was incredibly good at making it impossible.
He never learned the basic "If you are going to dish it out, learn to take it."
 

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