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2:00 PM
@BartekBanachewicz java is sooooo easy
 
@TonyTheLion I'm saying I thought there were more. But I'm not sure, honestly, I've never counted or anything, just feels like there are a lot of subtle variants
 
@Crowz it's also sooooo bad (or, in lounge terms, your mom's easy)
 
there's value- and zero-initialization, at least :)
 
@jalf I've only learned about 3 so far.
 
@BartekBanachewicz indeed it is, I'm pretty awful hah
 
2:00 PM
@jalf ok there you go, more. Damn :|
 
@jalf default- too.
@TonyTheLion Add list-init, list-copy-init, and list-direct-init.
At least there is only one form of destruction. Though there are already proposals to change that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ?! what are they proposing? GC?
 
Oh, yeah, and several of those various forms of initialisation become the same as some other form under certain conditions.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes holy moly. I've counted 9 types of initialization so far. Jeez. I was rather ignorant.
 
@sehe but to answer your question, it's a stack of applications to enhance the cmd terminal. I use ansicon to get ansi color code support. I use clink for many things, such as Readline-style tab completion, custom prompt and history expansion. I have a custom batch file that sets up my environment (aliases, among other things) as well as the previously named applications. Then finally I have this batch file installed to autorun on cmd startup.
 
2:03 PM
@sehe No, that's resource management, not destruction.
I am talking about running destructors with different semantics.
 
Xeo
I just noticed, I've been working here for a month now. Yay.
 
There is a proposal for something like success/failure destructor pairs.
 
oh noes
and what would be the use of that?
 
@nightcracker In short, you've nearly mimicked a standard linux console with bash/zsh and manage to get hurtful runtimes because of all the processes involved to paint on an already slow windows console window?
 
@Xeo congratz
 
2:04 PM
@TonyTheLion Distinguish if your dtor is running while an exception is being thrown or not.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't get it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes just to make things nice and easy. cough
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah right
 
@sehe I did nearly mimick a standard linux console (I can't stand cygwin, sorry) but the runtimes are blazing fast
 
// roughly, since exact semantics are still being debated, something like:
{
    foo f;
    throw 1;
    // calls f's fail-dtor
}
{
    foo f;
    return;
    // calls f's success-dtor
}
@sehe This.
 
can a prvalue become an lvalue?
 
2:06 PM
Expressions are expressions.
 
> An lvalue of function type T can be implicitly converted to a prvalue pointer to that function.
why not an lvalue where it says prvalue?
 
as in, if you assign the address of some function to a function pointer, isn't that function pointer an lvalue?
 
function pointers are weird
 
fptr = &somefunc;
fptr is lvalue, no?
 
2:08 PM
Yes.
 
&somefunc isn't.
 
but &somefunc is not
haha
 
I win. Twice.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, but that sentence above is saying the prvalue is the pointer to the function, not the function. or am I confused?
 
2:09 PM
fptr is pointer object, not pointer
&somefunc is pointer
 
@TonyTheLion somefunc decays to a pointer. When that happens, that expression is a prvalue.
 
oh interesting
 
Also
git doesn't want to discard my changes
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes: That's interesting. It would be possible to have something like D's on_error then, right? Like, RAII wrappers that trigger a cleanup routine only if an exception was thrown, so to reduce the need for the try-catch idiom
 
Fffff
 
2:10 PM
ffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
 
@AndyProwl Don't do that
 
@AndyProwl Yeah, I think that's the driving motivation.
 
@CatPlusPlus: How come? (Btw, there's no way to do that yet)
 
> ... because lvalues that refer to non-static member functions do not exist.
that's so odd?
 
Xeo
@AndyProwl .dismiss() the wrapper as the last statement.
 
2:11 PM
I wonder why they don't exist? because they have an implicit this argument?
 
Xeo
If an exception was thrown, dismiss won't be called and cleanup will be done.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh. cool in a way. Wouldn't you be able to do similar things using std::uncaught_exception() now?
 
@TonyTheLion You cannot have reference-to-member, only pointer-to-member.
@sehe No, don't do that, that's broken.
 
@Xeo: Yes, but I would like not to be bothered with that
 
Xeo
@sehe That's a red herring.
 
2:12 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah, for some reason I keep thinking a pointer is an lvalue
int* t; is what value category?
 
@TonyTheLion The types are irrelevant. lvalue is a property of an expression.
 
@CatPlusPlus rm -rf (or, serious: git reset --hard - carfeul please)
 
@TonyTheLion t <- pointer lvalue. &t <- pointer rvalue.
 
@Xeo ohkay
 
Xeo
@TonyTheLion Just (t) would be an lvalue.
 
2:13 PM
ah I see it, I think
@R.MartinhoFernandes so it's really talking about the first type not existing.
 
I think there's no way to refer to a member except through the &class::member syntax, and that results in a pointer-to-member prvalue. Of course you can make an lvalue out of that by making a variable.
 
Ahaha fresh checkout, "uncommitted changes"
 
@CatPlusPlus inconsistent line endings, possibly?
did you set autocrlf or anything like that in your git config?
 
From checkout?
 
sure, git's handling of line ending conversions is horribly broken. Will often show "uncommitted changes" on a fresh checkout
 
2:26 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes makes sense
 
@jalf never had that happen before
 
Just to be sure, do you even use line ending conversions?
 
Git for Windows commits Unix Style, checks out Windows style by default. I never changed that
 
Ah, ok. I always disable that. Kinda scares me.
 
Why should it? Just make your repo consistent.
I switch between platforms a lot, wouldn't want line endings screwing everything up.
 
2:29 PM
@rubenvb it depends on which kinds of line endings your files use, and if you ever convert them from one to the other
 
@rubenvb Because it's scary!
 
@rubenvb Unless you use tools which actually require Windows line endings, wouldn't it make more sense to set it to commit and check out Unix-style? :)
 
@jalf erm. "line end conversions are terribly broken". Why do you use them?
 
the fewer conversions, the better
 
What kind of stupid programs require Windows line endings on Unix?
 
2:31 PM
And to be honest, I don't really care about consistency. I know I have files with CRLF and files with LF in ogonek.
I don't which ones, because the editor doesn't really make it glaringly obvious. (there's a small [dos] in the status bar, but that's it.)
 
@rubenvb On Windows, I meant. We check out in Unix line endings on Windows, because there's no point in the additional conversion to CRLF
 
@rubenvb Me neither. That is why I expect my tools to respect line endings. The absolute worst one could imagine is to pursposely convert them just to appease broken tools
 
Come on, only notepad.exe barfs on LFs.
 
@sehe Because Git pretty much insists on converting everything to LF when committing, so that everything in the repo uses LF (which makes sense). But it means a conversion will take place if you commit a file which uses CRLF
 
@jalf Well, you just gave a reason yourself: if a tool requires Windows line endings how are you handling that by checking out Unix-style?
 
2:33 PM
@rubenvb We don't use any such tools. :)
 
"(which makes sense)" - absolute bogus.
Git is supposed to be a 'stupid content tracker"
 
@jalf That helps :P
 
Which tools do that?
 
@sehe No, it is not. Why do you think it has a diff command? Because it is supposed to treat textual content a bit more intelligent than as "a blob of content" :)
 
I agree with @jalf
 
2:35 PM
@jalf Why would it manipulate the contents? Just in order to be able to diff? Come on, give me a valid reason
 
git is a text version control tool. It can handle, but sucks at handling, binary blobs
 
Nobody, exactly nobody was talking about binaries. I don't know why you drag it in
 
@sehe line endings are arguable not "contents". It's more of a hassle most programmers don't give a shit about.
 
@sehe because someone may open a file, edit it and save it, and his editor might intentionally or not change line endings, causing a lot of noise in the diff
 
@rubenvb !>
 
2:36 PM
@sehe because @jalf was saying git works with text, not "content".
 
@jalf Like the puppy did. ducks
 
@jalf So. You've just defined a horribly broken tool
 
@sehe Why so hostile? I thought we were discussing something fairly neutral, here. Could we take a deep breath and relax for a second?
@sehe Git exists in a world where horribly broken tools also exist :)
 
@rubenvb Text is content. What's the dichotomy?
 
@sehe non-text is *also' content
 
2:37 PM
Git should also NFC my text!
 
@sehe LF and CRLF aren't text. They're binary representations of line endings.
 
@jalf Granted. However, I have been able to do lots of cross platform development without requiring line end conversion.
 
Xeo
@rubenvb You mean "CR, LF and CRLF". :)
 
Thus, your claim that Git is a "stupid content tracker" implies that it tracks everything in the same stupid way. The point is that it is not intended to treat text stupidly, but it is supposed to treat binary content stupidly
 
@Xeo Only old Macs use CR. It's abandoned to death, if not dead yet.
 
2:37 PM
And yes, I know the pain. I've used eclipse on Linux/Windows with subversion in the middle. Yes, I've even worked with CVSNT on windows.
 
@Xeo lol name one platform currently for sale that uses CR.
 
git handles binary blobs okay
 
@sehe Well, I see or hear no pain. I think you're causing your pain by worrying about line ending encoding.
 
@sehe True, I don't think it is often required. But since it is also not part of the content as such (hence why even the C/C++ standard libraries implicitly convert them on the fly when you open a file as text rather than binary), Git might as well store its text in a canonical form, making comparisons as easy as possible
 
@jalf I'm going out on a limb here, but I say a VCS should be very careful storing data as requested.
 
2:39 PM
@sehe Well, Git certainly does store it as requested. But depending on how you configure it, you can request it to normalize line endings. :)
you can also configure it to not do so
 
Of course, VCS have diff/merge as well, and that is a different story. I get the use case for --ignore-whitespace, --ignore-space-at-eol, --ignore-all-space
 
exactly what @jalf said.
 
Hi guys. Anyone familiar with the Draft specification for Transactional Memory? I can't seem to understand the semantical difference between atomic and relaxed transactions. At first I thought that atomic transaction would provide strong atomicity guarantees, but they don't seem to do so in the presence of data races, so what is the actual advantage?
 
@jalf Precisely. And I don't comprehend why anyone would ever not store things as-is. The reason "broken tools" doesn't seem valid in this day and age. If so, I'd vastly prefer to set .gitattributes for that particular (type of) file /cc @rubenvb
 
@sehe Nobody's stopping you. But I'll keep committing Unix Style. you haven't made any valid point except the "Let me control everything" argument.
 
2:41 PM
@sehe for the same reason that iostream converts \n to \r\n if your stream is not opened in binary mode. Because generally, line breaks are just line breaks, and the exact convention used to represent them is not important to the content, so it gets adapted to whatever platform it's running on
 
My p-doped semiconductor is not showing Hall charge carrier reversal when heated up.
 
Using anything other than \n is silly anyway
 
Of course, with a tool like Git, there's one good reason why it's preferable to normalize text like this. It stores blobs using SHA hashes as id's. If you don't normalize line endings, then two otherwise identical files might end up with different hashes, and be stored twice in the repo, and comparisons between them get much more expensive. :)
 
I think i know why they teach us this useless b method
 
2:43 PM
@jalf But what does "identical" mean here?
 
@rubenvb It's not "let me control everything". It's "don't let software decide without proper knowledge"
 
Because it was made in france. Circlejerk
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes same content, same byte sequence (except that one file uses \n where the other uses \r\n)
 
@NolwennLeGuen lol
 
@sehe I don't see how any of this is "without proper knowledge".
You tell it which files, if any, to apply this conversion to, and whether to perform it at all
 
2:44 PM
@sehe You have to set autocrlf for that to happen.
 
@sehe Remember I said "by default" way back when we were just talking?
 
@jalf Git couldn't know which files need to be in what convention.
@rubenvb where? I don't know whether I remember, because there is so little context to go on
 
@sehe You can tell it which files should be considered text, and which should be considered binary. You can tell it which, if any, conversion to apply for text files. You can also do more fine-grained configuration per-filetype if you want to
 
18 mins ago, by rubenvb
Git for Windows commits Unix Style, checks out Windows style by default. I never changed that
 
@jalf The point being, you still have to tell it for each new file. Been there, done that. Mucho error prone (experienced this with subversion, FTR)
 
2:46 PM
I bet git checks out Unix Style on Unix by default.
 
@sehe no, you don't
 
@rubenvb I'd hate for GIT to do that. Also, I don't see what purpose it serves
 
@rubenvb It does nothing.
 
@jalf Then what were you saying here?
 
I was quiet, reading what jalf was saying.
 
2:48 PM
There should be no need for line ending conversion, unfuck your editors :v
2
 
Sorry, misdirected reploy
 
@sehe At worst, you need to tell it for each file extension, not for each file. Or you can rely on it to distinguish between text and binary automatically, and simply tell it what to do for all files detected as textual.
 
@sehe Again?
 
trying to fix it. Something was wonky in browsery-clicky land
 
More like s/trying/failing/ :P
 
2:49 PM
@CatPlusPlus A thousand times, that
 
Anyway, I basically like the idea of normalizing everything to LF because I would prefer to pretend that CRLF didn't exist. Problem is that Git doesn't do so consistently, and so sometimes it will report files as having uncommitted changes if their line endings (or their line endings modulo the conversion-to-be-applied-on-commit) differ from that stored in the repo
 
we don't need different line endings any more. everything should just standardise to LF. of course, that's not backwards compatible so it's largely impossible.
 
@jalf That sounds like a borken editor (or a wrong setting)
 
@jalf Not by default, at least with the windows git client. I don't think that is very surprising, and frankly, I don't think it is that relevant/interesting
 
@rubenvb From my proxy-experience through the puppy, at least one of 1) the puppy and 2) VS's editor is borken.
 
2:51 PM
Both
 
@jalf Could it, by any chance, be that you've once accepted the "Do this always" option when opening a UNIX-style text file in MSVC?
 
@rubenvb it has nothing to do with editors, at least. It occurs if you run git diff from the command line.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Can't you set the VS editor to save anything you want?
 
VS inserts CRLF even if the rest of the file is LF
Then it complains that line endings are mixed :v
 
@jalf honestly never had that happen before O_o
 
2:51 PM
@rubenvb Dunno. All I know is that the puppy sent me a PR with tons of line ending diffs. (like, the whole fucking repo)
 
and I've gitted Qt, Webkit, my own crap, CMake, LLVM, Clang, you name it.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, I've seen that happen. I'm happy to unbreak it myself. But I'll never let it land in git. It could be LF, or CRLF, but not mixed.
 
VS editor is primitive and bad
 
@sehe By default it converts everything to CRLF on checkout, and to LF on commit, which means that your checked-out files differ from the ones stored in your repo. :) If you use sane tools which can handle LF on Windows, I'd say it makes more sense to skip the conversion on checkout. Normalize to LF on commit, and just checkout as-is (which means LF)
 
I like the VS editor, frankly. I do use R#/VsVim with that though
 
2:53 PM
even VS can handle LF.
 
We set autocrlf=input, which is supposed to behave as I just described: normalize on commit, do nothing on checkout
 
@sehe Is that a joke? (as in "I like the VS editor, but I replace a large portion of it with third-party tools")
 
@sehe isn't resharper only for C#?
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's find/replace are really neat
 
@rubenvb consider yourself lucky. :)
 
@jalf I somehwat agree with the solution strategy. But the "it" in "by default it converts" is still largely... irrelevant:
 
2:54 PM
@BartekBanachewicz No, it's just called that for shits and giggles
 
15 mins ago, by jalf
@sehe Well, Git certainly does store it as requested. But depending on how you configure it, you can request it to normalize line endings. :)
^ so choose a sane configuration?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes maybe he joined the Whitespacers
 
@CatPlusPlus I think it does JS and VB and XAML too now.
 
@sehe Hmm?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, it's a testimony to the editor. It's extensible to the point that you can make it behave like a Vim. I hardly have problems with encodings. I think it does alright.
@jalf "If you use sane tools which can handle LF on Windows, I'd say it makes more sense to skip the conversion on checkout" - agreeing there
 
2:56 PM
@sehe yup, and we do exactly that
 
Can anyone name two tools that don't handle LF on Windows? I'm genuinely curious.
 
@jalf Wokay. Now I'm lost as to what exactly was your gripe. It seems as though it does exactly what you ask it to.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Notepad (at least on my windows)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes notepad and... nothing else :D
 
That's why I said two.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes wordpad
 
2:57 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Try it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes s/two/too
 
well, there are probably someone out there using some really crappy home-brewed tool :)
 
Notepad not handling it correctly is still supremely irritating, though.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Worpad is a prime example of what does handle LF
 
Should I tell the PHP room?
 
2:58 PM
@DeadMG There isn't actually any need to ever launch notepad
 
We don't go to PHP room
 
Well, notepad is unchanged since windows 95 :P
 
@Collin From a distance, that Java logo resembles a smelling pile of poo. not?
@BartekBanachewicz Encodings and filesize support have changed, from the top of my head
 
@sehe Yeah, that part is exactly as we want it. Problem is that Git isn't intelligent enough to correctly determine which files have changed and which have not, then. Put a file with CRLF in your working tree, and run git status, and it will tell you that the file is changed. Git diff will show an empty diff, and in some cases, even git checkout <file> will have no effect because while git status believes the file to be modified, git checkout believes it to be unchanged
 
2:59 PM
@sehe It resembles it more and more the closer you get
 
@sehe That's probably intentional "TO: ART DEPARTMENT Please make something that is hip like coffee, but also honest, like poo"
 
we've also had some weird cases where you can even delete the file, check it out again from scratch, and git will tell you it has uncommitted changes
Just like @CatPlusPlus experienced
 
I just did that :v
 
@jalf Well, with git diff --name-status I'd say it would be wrong to omit the files that had LE converted. Same with git diff --stat
 

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