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7:00 PM
every place you never get rid of it
 
DLL hell wasn't a problem for years.
 
because people realized
"I might as well ship my own DLL"
 
if you had to choose the one good reason to switch to Linux, what would it be?
 
because of binary compatability :)
 
THE SHELL
 
7:00 PM
For generic Linux packages you have to ship with shared libraries or statically linked binaries, too.
 
THE EXPLORER
 
Ell
@IAmBatman it's free (& can run programs - @jalf)
 
NO MORE BILL GAYS
 
i mean besides price
i mean something intrinsic to its nature as a service/product/whatever
 
Alright @MooingDuck. I think I got all the pieces together. Now, once it's done with the file, how do I check if it read the whole thing, or failed somewhere in between?
 
7:01 PM
stable
 
open source for one
 
Because OSX is shit and Windows annoys me lately.
 
It's an operating system. It does operating system stuff. What do you want from it?
 
So no choice really.
 
Ell
@nightcracker don't let @jalf hear you using that as a plus!
 
7:01 PM
@IAmBatman Command line. No bloat. Fast.
 
but windows has command line too
 
HAHA
 
sort of
 
oh wow
 
osx is a rotten bsd with 1000 additional legs
 
7:02 PM
@IAmBatman That's a joke.
 
have you ever
 
Stop using "bloat" word.
 
Ell
It has powershell, in fairness
 
USED cmd?
 
what?
 
7:02 PM
You can use bash on Windows.
That's irrelevant to the OS.
 
I wish
There is cygwin
 
Ell
@nightcracker your wish is my command
 
I'm new to powershell, better than cmd, still sucks balls.
 
Preemptive: you can use coreutils, too.
 
cygwin blows
 
7:02 PM
what is wrong with "bloat"?
 
and it's bad
 
do you want to suffer bloat? sounds painful.
 
The worst part is Windows console.
The rest is on par with Linux CLI.
 
Screw cmd... Fancy eye-candy aero GUI FTW!
 
I.e. sucks anyway.
 
7:03 PM
The only thing is half decent is Console2
 
I am still trying to get at the core reason here. Me, as a user -- what would I primarily gain from Linux?
 
with some linux "binaries" like cp in a folder
IAmBatman: ever got a virus?
 
Ell
the worst part about windows is I don't know how to setup a proper build system up on it
 
@IAmBatman Some nice tools for a developer.
Like Valgrind.
 
Which tools?
 
Ell
7:04 PM
@IAmBatman what kind of user? developer? server admin? regular user?
 
Or package management.
 
@IAmBatman All tools u need
 
@Ell Gamer, websurfer, coder, etc
 
@IAmBatman what games
 
7:04 PM
have you ever used a linux machine?
 
As a gamer, you're worse on Linux, because no Steam and WINE is still and will forever be a crap.
 
yes
 
Ell
@IAmBatman gamer: lol. websurfer: its free!, coder: lots of good tools (compilers etc.) and easy to deploy
 
Web is the same as on Windows.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus wine is certainly not crap
 
7:05 PM
have you noticed the sudden increase of speed?
@ell: -1
 
I play SC2 under wine
 
Why isn't gaming more streamlined for use on Linux?
 
Coding: most tools are the same, some are exclusive to Windows, some are exclusive to Linux.
 
Ell
@nightcracker why is wine crap?
 
@IAmBatman Tiny market share in gaming circles, mostly.
 
7:05 PM
@jami: blizzard usually ensures compatability through wine or opengl
 
thats true
 
@Ell It works sometimes, but it'll never be a replacement for real WinAPI implementation.
 
thats also true
 
so something like wget or whatever, doesn't have a good windows equivalent?
 
well
no
 
Ell
7:07 PM
@IAmBatman Isn't wget cross platform?
 
Unless they get Microsoft involved, but they won't, because Microsoft has no business in this.
 
you can try to compile wget on windows
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus I know it's almost impossible for it to keep up all the way with the real WinAPI but I still think it does a very good job
 
wget works fine on Windows.
 
I thought I have used a wget program on windows....
 
7:07 PM
Stop talking nonsense.
 
the winapi is so rusted stuck its easy to keep up
 
Tools are mostly the same on both OSes.
@nightcracker No, because developers are incompetent hacks and crappy software depends on internal implementation details.
 
ok let me change that
 
Ell
winapi exposes implementation details?
 
the DOCUMENTED api is easy to keep up with :)
 
7:08 PM
If everyone stuck to the API contract then WINE would have better chances.
 
hahaha
 
Having documented behaviour implemented doesn't make crappy software work, and that's the only goal of WINE.
 
i thought WINE was more of a gimmick
 
Nobody needs WinAPI implementation on Linux for anything other than running precompiled Windows apps.
 
sadly, precompiled Windows apps are abundant
 
7:09 PM
It must replicate the behaviour exactly, and it has little chance to do that.
 
Ell
What are some examples of implementation details the winapi leaks?
 
Gaming market might turn more towards Linux with Valve going head first into it.
 
Ell
Yeah, hasn't hl2 been ported?
 
There is for example one thing that annoys me to no end when I have to do WINAPI stuff
 
L4D2 will be ported first.
 
7:11 PM
PVOID smt();
well, by now I know what a PVOID is
but what's wrong with void* ?
 
Ancient history stuff.
 
wow, review counts have been really low lately
before they used to be 150+, now its constantly < 10
 
Ell
howcome we don't see typedef in many languages?
 
@Ell: like?
 
will windows 8 be worth it?
 
7:16 PM
no
 
Ell
@nightcracker like any .net languages
 
why
 
why would it be
 
Because it's Win7 with ARM and touch stuff bolted on.
 
7:16 PM
why would I pay another 200$ for the same piece of crap
 
No reason to get excited.
 
Ell
@nightcracker nobody pays, silly ;)
 
Win7 is good enough. We'll see what happens with Win9.
 
colleague running the preview on his netbook reckons it's faster
so presumably there's been some optimisation done
 
@Ell C# has type aliases.
 
Ell
7:18 PM
oh does it?
brb (getting an ice lolly)
 
At least it had, according to quick Google.
Besides, it's not that useful.
 
the reason it's useful in C and C++ is because no one likes
std::pair<std::vector<int>, std::map<char *, int>> smt;
or worse
std::vector<std::pair<std::vector<int>, std::map<char *, int>>>::iterator
 
Ell
but it's useful for typedef int PortID or whatever
 
yes, because you can make stuff semantic
 
@Ell That's useless.
 
Ell
7:21 PM
why?
 
Because it's still int.
It creates a synonym, not a separate type.
It's good for convenience, to make long types short, but otherwise is meh.
Well, and that intX_t stuff.
Just use Haskell.
 
Or PHP... <--- Ducks head.
 
Python.
 
@CatPlusPlus Actually, it's good for a lot more than just that. Particularly to give a name that will remain constant, even though the underlying representation might change.
 
and no, not PHP
god
For example, FILE
 
7:23 PM
If you want to talk PHP, go to PHP room. Thanks.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus but it portrays the meaning
 
PortID port_id
 
@CatPlusPlus Ah you know I'm kidding.
 
Yeah, makes sense.
 
Ell
It does?
 
7:24 PM
No, it doesn't.
 
Ell
print(String string)
yeah, makes sense.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah. Well. I don't like weak typedefs too much.
 
well, it's mostly a thing in C++
when I see this:
 
I want more type inference.
4
 
void kill_computer(std::string ip, int port);
I know what to pass
if I see
void kill_computer(std::string ip, PortID port);
I'm thinking, WTF is a PortID, wasting time to look it up
but type inference is indeed severly lacking
 
7:26 PM
Changing a target of typedef might also break API or ABI or both.
 
But don't listen to me, I use typedef subconsciously without even realising it.
 
@AgainstASicilian Bye.
 
@CatPlusPlus Strong typedefs can certainly be a good thing -- but even weak ones can be somewhat useful.
 
Yeah.
 
7:28 PM
Hm..
 
You leaving?
 
You should use Haskell anyway.
 
How can I extract the 1?
 
I use typedef mostly to shrink "long long" to ll
 
7:29 PM
@CatPlusPlus: Python.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus haskell sucks.
2
 
@Drise With a parser.
 
morning
 
IAmBatman: please don't.
 
@nightcracker Haskell is awesomer than Python.
 
7:29 PM
@nightcracker Don't what?
 
@RadekSlupik Playing fast and loose with the facts, to put it mildly.
 
Ell
ruby.
 
Ruby is not.
 
@IamBatman: it's not so ll to write
 
Ruby is almost worse than PHP.
 
7:30 PM
huh?
 
Never tried Ruby
But PHP is bad
 
ruby is no where near as bad as php
 
what's so bad about PHP?
 
nothing can be PHP bad
except PHP, of course
 
wow
IAmBatman: have you ever looked at the amazing standard library of PHP?
 
7:31 PM
Ruby is too much focussed on OOP IMO.
 
Don't start PHP talk TIA.
 
Rumor says it can do anything, but not what you want
 
What.
 
@nightcracker i've used PHP before in conjunction with SQL for websites... about it
 
7:31 PM
That's nonsense.
Seriously guys I will bin PHP talk.
 
not sure why that's a bad thing
 
It's boring and not funny any more.
 
@IAmBatman use a singleton
 
Does anyone know how to check which chat room is the most active right now?
 
@AgainstASicilian Huh? For what?
 
7:33 PM
@RadekSlupik ideone.com/nwCxx
This seems wrong.
 
Any webmasters around?
 
@ClarityForce You mean web devs?
 
If you want to ask silly questions, not this chat room.
 
@ClarityForce: at the front page of the chatrooms they are sorted by activity IIRC
 
@ClarityForce This is Lounge<C++>. What do you expect the answer to be?
 
7:34 PM
@Drise: overly complicated ^^
 
wtf is going on here
 
@IAmBatman Anarchy.
 
@EtiennedeMartel yeah, looking for web devs who are good in programming as well
 
@ClarityForce: careers.stackoverflow.com
 
@ClarityForce You do realize that a "web developer" is a programmer who works on the Web?
 
7:35 PM
hahah XD
 
"web designer" is the artistic counterpart
 
@RadekSlupik Well, okay, my question then becomes: In what way do the doors break easily?
 
17 messages moved to bin
Warned you.
No PHP talk.
 
Did the SO dev team really implement automatic retrieving and inlining of xkcd images?
 
Go to PHP room.
 
7:38 PM
+1 respect
 
We're obviously talking about architecture and building code regulations, CPP.
 
@nightcracker "oneboxing"
 
Moving this conversation to the PHP room would raise a thousand flags.
 
Then don't talk about it.
It's done to death, not funny, boring and not funny.
:<
 
I like Python.
 
7:39 PM
Please stop using the language-that-shall-not-be-named's name.
 
@DeadMG Does Wide support type inferencing?
 
Java?
 
@JimNorton Yes.
 
@RadekSlupik Get out.
 
@JimNorton Of course Wide supports type inferencing; @DeadMG isn't an idiot.
 
7:40 PM
Haskell is better than Python.
 
0
Q: Where does Programming lead too?

Lolo LoloI'm a noob to programming. I decided to get into IT via web designing. I then wanted to be able to maintain a website, so i started learning JavaScript with a view to learn PHP after. But being so inspired by it all, i saw programming was very similar to Javascript and PHP but didnt have to inclu...

 
ok, so here is the thing. I have launched a new website yesterday - online-based password generator. Unfortunately many people keep telling me that nobody is going to use it because people either can't understand how it works, or are afraid the password to be stolen :( I'm wondering if there is anything I can do about that. Could really use some advice...
 
Don't know, never used haskell
 
@bamboon Death.
 
@ClarityForce Don't do online-based password generators.
 
7:41 PM
Python is better than Haskell.
 
It's that simple.
They are right to not trust it.
 
Password generator? cat /dev/random
 
Why people trust LastPass is beyond my comprehension.
 
Xeo
Aw fuck.
 
what is LastPass
 
7:42 PM
@Drise if you really need to tell the difference, then you can check .fail(). If that's true, it failed to read something when it tried to read. If you need more details, you have to add that to your functions.
 
what might i use instead of the voldemort-equivalent?
 
@RadekSlupik Aww man, you figured out my password.
 
Google it.
 
Xeo
I think my external HDD is somehow corrupted at certain parts -.-
 
the language that shall not be named
 
7:42 PM
@CatPlusPlus there is a desktop version as well. Does it mean I should remove the generator from the site, and just leave the downloadable content?
 
Any other language.
 
like?
 
@ClarityForce Write the pw generation in JS.
 
@MooingDuck Fair enough. ideone.com/nwCxx I'm pretty sure I'm doing this wrong.
 
Python. Haskell. Ruby. C++.
 
7:42 PM
wait a sec.
LastPass is an online password manager and form filler that makes web browsing easier and more secure.
 
i am talking web dev
 
that makes web browsing easier and more secure.
more secure.
 
Then... Python. Haskell. Ruby. C++.
 
@IAmBatman You can use all of those for web development.
 
how is the automatic filling of passwords "more secure"?
 
7:43 PM
interesting
 
There's nothing wrong with autofill.
As long as the storage is encrypted.
 
so i could do HTML/CSS+SQL+Python?
 
I am writing a bug tracker with a web interface in Python and it works without problems.
 
@CatPlusPlus: password fields aren't, at least on windows
 
@IAmBatman Sure. Check out Flask if you want to do small~middle-sized apps.
 
7:44 PM
Password fields are not storage
 
+1 Flask
 
Use Django, Flask is not for beginners.
 
@Drise yeah, extracting substrings between two symbols is kinda a pita, lets see what I can whip up
 
Is HTML5 all that it's talked up to be?
 
It's still HTML, so no.
 
7:44 PM
@IAmBatman I personally use mongoengine for persistence, but you can use other ORMs or just plain SQL.
 
Not really.
 
@Drise also, whenever possible, use istringstream or ostringstream, don't stream both ways.
 
@CatPlusPlus Really? I had a more difficult time setting up a Django application than a Flask application.
 
Ew Mongo.
@RadekSlupik What's so hard about django-admin startproject?
Also you might want to use PyCharm or something, I hear it even works.
Also learn DVCS, now.
 
@MooingDuck I suppose.
 
7:47 PM
I think Mason is pretty good,
 
That Perl thingy?
Ew.
 
Yeah, perl.
 
I don't understand people who insist on using those awful languages.
 
But pyton based frameworks are obviously better. Mason was good during it's time.
@CatPlusPlus Well "awful" and "good" are subjective in most cases.
 
People have funny arguments against Python.
 
7:49 PM
Django forces me to put specific things in specific places. I don't like that.
Other than that, it's OK.
 
"IT FORCES ME TO INDENT THINGS — you don't indent code? — I DO BUT I DON'T HAVE TO"
 
@MooingDuck Can I ask of you another variant on the parser? It's a set of other files, but still related.
 
@Cat, do you like anything?
 
@TomW Haskell.
 
@TomW Yes.
 
7:50 PM
@CatPlusPlus Eh, "I DO BUT I PREFER A DIFFERENT INDENTATION STYLE"
 
If you do inconsistent indenting, you should die in fire.
If not, then you're already doing what Python wants.
The problem is imaginary.
 
I try to follow PEP 8 wherever possible.
 
there are indentation schemes which are neither inconsistent nor Python's
 
Like what?
 
@DeadMG: s/consistent/inconsistent/ ?
 
7:52 PM
@Drise basically your parsing code was right, but your extraction method was slow and would crash and burn if the input was malformed. ideone.com/N4I0e
 
Xeo
wtf. something is bogus.
 
@Drise I suppose you can
 
It's basic "indent on block". There's no other sane indentation scheme.
 
^
there is one thing I can not understand
 
Only one thing?
 
7:53 PM
int main(int argc, char **argv)
{ // dafuq
return 0;
}
2
 
well, for one, I actually prefer {} over whitespace
 
@nightcracker That is horrible.
 
@RadekSlupik: I wish :)
 
I feel bad.
Convert tab to four spaces
# Please enter the commit message for your changes. Lines starting
# with '#' will be ignored, and an empty message aborts the commit.
# On branch master
# Changes to be committed:
#   (use "git reset HEAD <file>..." to unstage)
#
#	modified:   server.py
#
 
I personally like what's known as "Java-style"
 
7:55 PM
@RadekSlupik You should.
 
i love pyhon
 
Stupid editors that default to tabs even in Python mode.
 
I think I'm literally alone when defending mixing tabs and spaces
 
Use vim.
 
Editors should enforce PEP 8. :P
 
7:55 PM
Woah, I slept way too much today.
 
@nightcracker Yes. It's stupid.
 
Almost skipped a day.
 
Tabs are generally more trouble than it's worth.
 
ideally, I would use TABS for indenting levels, and SPACES for further indenting for aligning
 
@CatPlusPlus Alright, I'll try Vim.
I always had trouble with its UI.
 
7:56 PM
@RadekSlupik: make sure you have at least a week
@RadekSlupik: because getting used to Vim is... not easy
 
I never align on the beginning of the line.
 
@nightcracker I have all the time till I die.
 
It's silly.
 
@CatPlusPlus: explain? I'm unsure what you mean
 
Well, what do you align? Arguments to opening paren?
 
7:57 PM
I align nearly nothing
 
I just indent one level more. Doesn't change that tabs are silly.
 
but some things I do
for example bitmasks in hex notation
 
How are you, gentlemen, doing today? I see Cat++ is writing mallocs in his code and FredOverflow just loves auto_ptr.
 
@DomagojPandža Bad. We had a brown list idiot again.
 
7:58 PM
No syntax highlighting.
 
Because php sucks. — PeeHaa 24 secs ago
 
@CatPlusPlus Why are tabs silly?
 
@RadekSlupik Aligning arguments to opening parenthesis is bad and you should feel bad.
 
And again I'm all alone
 
hello_world(
    argument, argument,
    argument, argument
)
 
7:59 PM
I just love my line wrapping
 
The only way.
 
@CatPlusPlus I feel bad.
 
@SamDeHaan They just are. vOv
 
lol vim uses tabs
 

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